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judy
9th March 2006, 06:42 AM
i think, and cautiously hope, that zack is doing better. at least i don't think he's had the vomiting for several days, whereas he was having it every other day up until around Thursday, and he was refusing food on Saturday, but since then he's seemed normal. i keep expecting him to get sick again, but i hope not. he's been eating nothing but boiled chicken and minute rice since Saturday night, small servings. he's hungry a lot whereas he wasn't before the vomiting thing started.

although he's doing better we had a health crisis last night--the holistic vet i saw on last saturday gave me a de worming medication, Drontal Plus, to give him. I postponed it til last night because he was on too many medications at once, but now he's off everything except the Tylan that his other vet gave him to go with the Drontal because Drontal, she said, can cause diarrhea and the tylan will treat or minimize diarrhea. So, last night i gave him the Drontal Plus and he had a strong reaction to it, he became really restless and nervous and agitated, very hyper, doing all kinds of behaviors he doesn't usually do, climbing on the table, climbing other things, trying to eat everything, laying on me but being really jumpy, and not at all sleepy, the boy was wired. and it was late and it was going on for hours and hours and i had to work today, and it was like 2am and he was not sleepy at all but i tried to go to bed, put him in his crate, but i knew taht it wouldn't work. He only goes to sleep in his crate at night because he's so sleepy. but last night he couldn't sleep and he was so agitated, he needed the contact with me. I knew that, but also needed to get some sleep, i could not get out of what i had to do at work today. it was awful because there was no end in sight, hours went buy quickly and nothing changed, he was just running around and then laying on me like he wanted to sleep but he couldn't relax. around 4am i tried again, but he started crying and then he was howling and then he was barking, i was trying to give it 15 minutes to see if he would settle down because he was seeming a little more still and quiet before i put him to bed, poor little guy, he was tired and wanted to sleep. but i live in an aparment and have neighbors and i couldn't wait 15 minutes. anyway, i know zack wouldn't be doing that if he could help it. he was just reacting to how he felt. finally he really did start relaxing, his eyes stayed closed even if there was a little noise in the room instead of getting startled. so around a quarter to 5, i put him in his crate along with a bag of rice covered in fabric and heated up in the microwave for warmth, and he whimpered once and then was quiet. I was so stressed. i thought he's start barking again. but he didn't. i was tired but i took a sleeping pill and got two hours sleep. :?
i'm sure glad that's over. He's supposed to take the second dose in two weeks. but i don't think so.

sarahg
9th March 2006, 09:19 AM
Hi Judy

I am so glad that Zack is doing better i also hope that you can now have some well deserved sleep!!

Sarah xx

Nicki
9th March 2006, 09:47 AM
Judy, I'm so glad the vomiting is better but how awful to have such a bad reaction to Drontal :cry:

You must be exhausted today, so try to get some rest, and I hope that Zack is much better.

Please write down exactly what happened and give it to your vet, and ask them to report it - that's how these companies find out about reactions to drugs.

Also there is no way I would ever give him that again...see if the vet will give you something else, I think Lopatol is supposed to be more gentle on the stomach.

Rupert used to have d and v after worming, that's what first got me interested in complementary medicine. Mine have had homeopathic wormers for years, work fine and we never have any problems with them.

sramirez
9th March 2006, 02:20 PM
I can emphathize with you regarding no sleep last night. My Sophi had a stomach ache last night too - she was restless and kept moving around, then sitting up like she was gonna vomit. I actually put a little tiny bit of my antacid on her morning food and tried to figure out what is causing her distress :cry:

So, let's hope we all get a better night's sleep tonight! I'll be thinking about you Judy...

Sheri

JaneB
9th March 2006, 04:02 PM
Judy,
I am worn out just reading about your night with poor Zack. This may sound crazy but it has worked for me when my furry babies have been overwrought. My vet endorses this after she had her technicians try it with dogs that were nervous about staying the night at her clinic. She thought I was kidding her. Believe it or not, if you swaddle your puppy quite tightly in a small blanket, hold them close and sway gently while making a shhhhhshhhh sound, you may find your dog will quiet. After finding this to work on my three grandbabies, I tried it on Beatrice when we first brought her home. Like you, I needed to sleep so I could go to work. I was ready to try anything!!! As silly as it may sound it worked like a dream! I used this same method on both my girls and they love it! From time to time Flora even brings me her "blanket".

JaneB

Karlin
9th March 2006, 06:45 PM
Sorry to hear about all that. You should report back to your vet.

Here's what one of the irish rescues recommends as a very mild and effective wormer. I am posting together a couple of posts from the person:




Using Fenbendazol in a 10% solution

This is the dosage:

1 ml per kg of weight of the dog (or 2.2lbs) dosage a day, for 3-5 days.

Comments:

Fenbendazol is the safest wormer available on the market and is available almost everywhere.

It does come in various strengths but the 10% ratio is perfect.

It is safe to use on cats, in fact the FDA states that it can be used on pups from birth and this is the ONLY wormer that can be used this early.

If I do not know the worming history of the dogs I normally would take a good look at the dogs, the colour of the poo, the condition of the coat and their overall demenour to food. Reluctance to eat is as big an indicator of worms as a animal that gobbles its food. Do not be surprised if you get blood in the faeces, this is not unusual for a heavy burden especially hook worm. They are like leeches and adhere to the lining of the stomach, when they die they leave lesions which need to have time to heal.

Eating its own faeces, whilst being blamed as a bad habit (which it can be) is also an indicator of worms, in my opinion this would indicate a burnden of hook worms.

Again if I don't know the history I would worm for three days, possibly five if I feel the burden is severe. The cycle of most worms is about ten days, so I would then give a break for a week and worm again for three days, then a break for a week and worm again for three days.

After this period I would review give a break for two weeks and possible give a fourth worming. This is the regime that we and Edel used for Rainbow and Rafferty, the two gsd pups. Rafferty was so severely affected by worms that he didn't want to eat for nearly three days when Edel had him. They left us for their forever homes, plump and like shiny new pins! The dosage for pups is 1/2ml per kilo.

Fenbendazol not only kills the worms but is one of the few wormers that kill eggs as well.

Once you feel that the worms have been flushed out, Celtic Animal Life Line advise that you worm your dog every three months. Dogs can pick up worms from the ground and get recontaminated very easily.

You can use cattle or horse variety and it is a lot cheaper than the dog version Parazole.

Fenben10 is a cattle drench and is an example there are others.

Panacur 10 is the horse variety and is another example there are others.

DO NOT USE THE SHEEP VARIETY as sometimes these have selenium in them and is not good for woofies

I find that the wormer beginning with D and the one beginning with M is insufficient for dogs with a moderate to severe wormburden and as you and I both know - most woofies coming in haven't been wormed properly. Unfortunately these wormers imply that they are a one hit wonder - this isn't the case with what we are dealing with. Fine as a maintenance regime, but I still use the fenbendazole for that as well. To worm a large severely effected dog thoroughly with tablets (dosing three times) would cost about €60, I know because I have done it. I can thoroughly worm about 30 dogs (various sizes) three times for about €80!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



From irishanimals.com board

judy
10th March 2006, 05:58 AM
Hi Judy

I am so glad that Zack is doing better i also hope that you can now have some well deserved sleep!!

Sarah xx

thanks Sarah. I actually was remembering it wrong, i remember now what happened. Monday was the day Zack vomited the tiny bit of chicken i gave him in the morning by hand, and then when i came home at lunch time he had vomited in his crate, and then that night while he was sleeping on my leg, he started vomiting while he was still asleep. So Monday was a really bad day. I expected Tuesday to be good because bad days and good had been alternating for a week or so, and sure enough, Tuesday no vomiting, good appetite. That night i gave him the wormer. Then Wednesday and today, still a good appetite and no vomiting. Maybe his symptoms had been caused by worms?? anyway, the period of being vomit free is shorter than i thought, and i'm still apprehensive and cautious in my optimism. But, I am HAPPY. :) Maybe being on the chicken and rice has helped him. Around the same time the vomiting stopped, so did his frequent scratching. I'm happy about that too. Since i got him, he's never scratched as little as he's scratching now.

judy
10th March 2006, 06:00 AM
...Rupert used to have d and v after worming, that's what first got me interested in complementary medicine. Mine have had homeopathic wormers for years, work fine and we never have any problems with them.


Nikki, i would like to find out more about homeopathic wormers.

judy
10th March 2006, 06:01 AM
I can emphathize with you regarding no sleep last night. My Sophi had a stomach ache last night too - she was restless and kept moving around, then sitting up like she was gonna vomit. I actually put a little tiny bit of my antacid on her morning food and tried to figure out what is causing her distress :cry:

So, let's hope we all get a better night's sleep tonight! I'll be thinking about you Judy...

Sheri

Thanks Sheri. Is Sophi OK?

judy
10th March 2006, 06:09 AM
Judy,
I am worn out just reading about your night with poor Zack. This may sound crazy but it has worked for me when my furry babies have been overwrought. My vet endorses this after she had her technicians try it with dogs that were nervous about staying the night at her clinic. She thought I was kidding her. Believe it or not, if you swaddle your puppy quite tightly in a small blanket, hold them close and sway gently while making a shhhhhshhhh sound, you may find your dog will quiet. After finding this to work on my three grandbabies, I tried it on Beatrice when we first brought her home. Like you, I needed to sleep so I could go to work. I was ready to try anything!!! As silly as it may sound it worked like a dream! I used this same method on both my girls and they love it! From time to time Flora even brings me her "blanket".

JaneB

Jane, what wonderful imagery, swaddled puppies being rocked. It sounds lovely. haha. Flora bringing you her blanket, how cute. I will try that.

Karlin
10th March 2006, 11:50 AM
Chicken and rice almost certainly has helped his stomach; it is nice and bland and easily digestible plus dogs tend to love it. Also the small frequent meals are easier to digest that a large meal all at once. I am glad he sounds like he's doing better. To me it sounds like maybe you are getting some sort of allergic rection to foods as well.

Give him some time on the chicken/rice and maybe now start to work towards fewer, slightly larger meals and see how he does. Then I'd look into a good quality kibble with an alternative protein source, no grains except rice, etc. Laura Lang keeps the Whole Dog Journal list here:

http://roycroftcavaliers.com/manualfeeding.htm

You can also give the chicken/rice meals as an alternative. You can try addding a teaspoon or tablespoon of live yogurt as well weekly or so, but if this bothers him discontinue as perhaps he has sensitivity to dairy products (dogs sometimes do).

Sally
10th March 2006, 01:09 PM
Yikes! What a horrible ordeal with the wormer!

I'm glad to hear Zack is doing a bit better with the chicken and rice. It was a big help for us with Pixie and her extremely sensitive tummy. What Karlin recommended is exactly what we did, slowly increased the amounts we were giving her. After that seemed to work, we started adding a few pieces of kibble, giving that a few days, and if it all stayed ok, adding a few more.

We also started giving her a probiotic pill every day. We use Gentle Digest from Ark Naturals, but there are several brands that others use.

Another thing I thought of is to wait a bit (like 1/2 hour) after the pup eats before they play hard. Pixie only had a short spell of vomitting, but during that time, it seemed to help.

Pixie's system still does not tolerate drugs well, we know every month when she gets her heartworm meds she'll have a day of soft poops, but we now know to expect it.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that things continue to improve.

judy
10th March 2006, 04:15 PM
Sorry to hear about all that. You should report back to your vet.
Here's what one of the irish rescues recommends as a very mild and effective wormer.

So it's Panecure? That's interesting. The day i got Zack, he had the diarrhea, and bloody diarrhea the next day, and on that day i called the broker i bought him from and she said she would mail me something to give him for it. She sent three medications, one was for Giardia, one was for Coccidia and one was Panecure for worms. Before her mail arrived, earlier that day, i took him to the vet and the vet put him on Flagyl, so i never used the meds she sent. But it feels kind of weird to consider the possibility that if i had done what she suggested, he might have gotten better in three days like she said, instead of being sick for over a month with over $1000 in medical bills. She sounded so confident in what she was recommending. But i felt better going by what a vet said, of course.
One thing that's hard is to never really know what it is or was.

judy
10th March 2006, 05:47 PM
thanks for the feedback on chicken and rice, that supports my instinct, to give him graduallly more and to add a little kibble. i was looking at the kibble list on the article. trying tofind one with no grain except rice. Is it ok for it to have other ingredients? I have (here at home) Canadae, and it's mostly chicken and rice but has a bunch of other stuff too, liver flavor, egg, and many more. Is this OK? On the list, what stood out was Natura's California Natural Chicken and Rice kibble, but i don't see a full ingredients list (i am really really rushing, late for work), it says good for allergy prone dogs. But this is not an alternative meat like duck or lamb. But chicken is good, right? If i can find both today, i'll get both.

Today will be the 4th day in a row Zack is not sick, if he continues to be like he is now, very hungry, energetic. I continue to be cautious in assuming that nightmare is over because the day after the emergency room, the vet gave him shots of pepcid and chlorpromazine and he was OK for 3 and a half days, then suddenly it was back, every other day after that.
But i am increasingly hopeful. The stool was better this morning, no diarrhea at all for a few days, but very small and very gross looking, but the one this morning looked more normal, still small. I am concerned about his eyes, tear stains on his face he didn't have before. This was most likely caused by one of his antibiotics which has a side effect related to tear production. Here's what it says on the website of my first vet:

(sulfasalazine, brand name azulfidine)
Inability to produce adequate tears
Sulfa drugs of any kind are capable of disrupting tear function. Classically, this occurs after long term therapy (ie weeks to months) of use but occasionally certain individuals suffer from dry eyes after only one dose of sulfa. In most cases, tear function resumes normally after the drug is discontinued but occasionally the effect is long term or permanent despite withdrawal of the drug. This is the most common side effect seen.[/quote]

Roberta
11th March 2006, 05:22 PM
Hi Judy,

When you gradually switch to kibble, why don't you try the Natural Balance Duck and Potato? I know of quite a few cavaliers with food sensitivities who have done really well on it. BTW, Trevor did not do well with several of the chicken and rice kibbles or Canidae....

Best, Roberta

judy
11th March 2006, 10:17 PM
thanks for the feedback on chicken and rice, that supports my instinct, to give him graduallly more and to add a little kibble. i was looking at the kibble list on the article. trying tofind one with no grain except rice. Is it ok for it to have other ingredients? I have (here at home) Canadae, and it's mostly chicken and rice but has a bunch of other stuff too, liver flavor, egg, and many more. Is this OK? On the list, what stood out was Natura's California Natural Chicken and Rice kibble, but i don't see a full ingredients list (i am really really rushing, late for work), it says good for allergy prone dogs. But this is not an alternative meat like duck or lamb. But chicken is good, right? If i can find both today, i'll get both.

Today will be the 4th day in a row Zack is not sick, if he continues to be like he is now, very hungry, energetic. I continue to be cautious in assuming that nightmare is over because the day after the emergency room, the vet gave him shots of pepcid and chlorpromazine and he was OK for 3 and a half days, then suddenly it was back, every other day after that.
But i am increasingly hopeful. The stool was better this morning, no diarrhea at all for a few days, but very small and very gross looking, but the one this morning looked more normal, still small. I am concerned about his eyes, tear stains on his face he didn't have before. This was most likely caused by one of his antibiotics which has a side effect related to tear production. Here's what it says on the website of my first vet:

(sulfasalazine, brand name azulfidine)
[quote]Inability to produce adequate tears
Sulfa drugs of any kind are capable of disrupting tear function. Classically, this occurs after long term therapy (ie weeks to months) of use but occasionally certain individuals suffer from dry eyes after only one dose of sulfa. In most cases, tear function resumes normally after the drug is discontinued but occasionally the effect is long term or permanent despite withdrawal of the drug. This is the most common side effect seen.

judy
11th March 2006, 10:35 PM
Hi Judy,

When you gradually switch to kibble, why don't you try the Natural Balance Duck and Potato? I know of quite a few cavaliers with food sensitivities who have done really well on it. BTW, Trevor did not do well with several of the chicken and rice kibbles or Canidae....

Best, Roberta

Hi Roberta. Today is the 5th day that Zack is showing no signs of the vomiting/not eating symptoms he had for two weeks. As far as vomiting or losing his appetite goes, he's showing no signs of sensitivity to larger meals and kibble. I've been giving him digestive enzymes and probiotics in the past week too, the enzymes are from the pet store, i think the brand is NaturVet. The probiotics are from the human health food store, they have to be refridgerated. They're for small children.

As for the diarrhea, i dont' know. He hasn't had any diarrhea in almost a week and a half, but i woulnd't call his stool normal or healthy. Its very small and the texture is sticky and soft. It's not like regular dog doo. He started taking the antibiotic/anti-diarrheal Tylan on tuesday, which is also the day he had the Drontal Plus for worms. So i guess either one or both may have helped him with the vomiting thing, killing something that was causing it. the stool looks a bit more normal each day, no more mucous for the past couple of days.

the kibble i've been giving him for two days is the Natura california natural chicken and rice. I also bought, at the same time, Wellness Duck Formula which is duck and rice. i didn't know if potato was OK. but i will get some NB Duck and Potato--that is a good recommendation if dogs are known to be doing well on it.

How will i know if Zack has a problem with the chicken/rice kibble, in other words, he's ok on it now for two days. If he's still OK on it in a week, does that mean he doesn't have a problem with it, or does it take longer in many cases for the problem to show?

Zack continues to NOT be scratching incessantly for the past week. He had scratched a lot every day since i first brought him home on january 28, until a week ago and then it suddenly stopped.

Roberta
14th March 2006, 12:43 AM
Hi Judy,

I was away this weekend so sorry for the delay in responding. Glad that Zack is doing better. While he is on medications such as Tylan it will be hard to determine if a certain food really agrees with him. When he stops the medication, then you should know pretty quickly whether there is a food sensitivity. My vet also had told me that new food sensitivities can occur over time, but new sensitivities shouldn't occur immediately.

I think you had mentioned giving Zack bully sticks? I would discontinue those...a lot of dogs have reactions to things like bully sticks, liver treats, rawhide etc. You might look into getting him a Nylabone for vigorous chewers---Trevor loves chewing his! There are also some canvas toys made by "Fat Cat" that are great for chewers--they have a "crinkle" sound that a lot of dogs like. BTW, I've seen them in the past for a really good price at Target.

Best, Roberta

judy
15th March 2006, 05:33 AM
Hi Judy,

I was away this weekend so sorry for the delay in responding. Glad that Zack is doing better. While he is on medications such as Tylan it will be hard to determine if a certain food really agrees with him.....

I think you had mentioned giving Zack bully sticks? I would discontinue those...a lot of dogs have reactions to things like bully sticks, liver treats, rawhide etc. You might look into getting him a Nylabone for vigorous chewers---Trevor loves chewing his! There are also some canvas toys made by "Fat Cat" that are great for chewers--they have a "crinkle" sound that a lot of dogs like. BTW, I've seen them in the past for a really good price at Target.

Best, Roberta

Thanks Roberta
I got him a nylabone today. He sure loves those bully stix, but he did get into the nylabone. There were two kinds, original and chicken, so i got both. I gave him the original one and he got into it. Thanks for the tip about Target for the Fat Cat things. It wouldn't surprise me if his colitis was triggered initially by some kind of treat i got him when we were driving home from where i got him. Except that he had diarrhea immediately when i got him home. But the lady i got him from had given the dogs bully sticks, that's where i got the idea. He's not a very strong chewer and for the first few weeks i had him, he didn't seem to get much off the bully stick, they didn't get smaller or show much signs of wear. But after having his food cut down, he got extremely hungry and then he started actually getting some material off the bully sticks.

I got him the Natural Balance Duck and Potato today. I wanted to ask, were you/others talking about the dry food or the canned food, or both?
I got both.

Roberta
15th March 2006, 10:19 PM
Hi Judy,

You can feed both types of Natural Balance Duck and Potato. Gradually add the kibble to the cooked chicken and rice you are currently feeding...maybe start with 10 pieces of kibble per meal and then gradually increase it every couple of days as you decrease the chicken and rice. Trevor gets about one tablespoon of canned food with his kibble at each meal a day. But he is an adult and Zack is a pup so that amounts will be different. You might want to start with just a 1/2 teaspoon of canned food at each meal and gradually increase it over time if he tolerates it well. I just posted some more info on the chicken and rice thread.

Best, Roberta