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View Full Version : Very Upset at my Brother



Luv2Camp53
13th March 2006, 06:45 PM
He owns a lovely little Blenheim Cavalier girl named Maggie. He got her from a back yard breeder, because he fell in love with my Molly and wanted one of his own, and he and I have had a lot of conversations over the past two years about why that was maybe not the best choice of where to get his dog. But, he seems to have lucked out as she is 2 1/2 years old now and is in very good health, none of the problems that can plague Cavaliers, at least not yet anyway. Well, he called me this past weekend to inform me that Maggie had just given birth to six Cavalier puppies, and did I know anyone who might want a puppy. I was so upset and angry at him that I was just speechless. I had no idea he was planning on breeding, he has no experience with Cavalier breeding, is unsure of the pedigree of his Maggie, I have talked with him on MANY occasions about why it is so important to the health of the breed to avoid indiscriminate breeding practices, and yet he has chosen to produce puppies. I asked him who the sire was, and it is a male that is owned by the person he got Maggie from, who he was told is unrelated to Maggie, but how would he ever know as he does not have access to either dogs pedigree. I am so mad at him I could literally strangle him with my bare hands. With all the grief we have experienced with our Cavaliers (Molly and her knees and hips, and Penny with Episodic Falling Syndrome - and I did my homework BEFORE I got my first Cavalier) I am so afraid for these puppies, who, in my opinion, have two strkes against them right from the start. He says he is not planning on another litter, (Thank God for Small Blessings) and only bred her because he holds this unsubstantiated belief that a female is a better pet if she has had a litter of puppies. Oh, well, I had to vent. This has me so upset. All I can do is pray and hope for the best now.

WoodHaven
13th March 2006, 06:54 PM
No it gets worse-- you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't assist him in finding homes for these 6 pups. If he makes $$$ easily it will make him do this again. If you don't assist him - the new owners may do exactly what he did-- breed another generation for a cash crop. Sandy -- whose brother bred his GSP --- He was so freaked out <one died in his hands> that he had his female spay within 2 months of giving birth.

Karlin
13th March 2006, 07:05 PM
Here's what we regularly do in rescue:

Tell him you will help him to rehome BUT that he is to allow you to arrange for his dog to be spayed as soon as the puppies are homed and you want that in writing first. And that you will bring her in to make sure this is done (though you can say to 'help him').

It is exasperating. I would try to home to homes that make a commitment to spay/neuter as well, or consider having him home them through cavalier rescue, who will do this. All the regional rescues are listed in the breed rescue section, the very top post. They should follow through on ensuring the pups end up being neutered and spayed. Why not give the closest regional rescue a ring or email them and discuss the situation and see if you can come up with a good, positive plan?

sramirez
13th March 2006, 07:12 PM
I'm sorry to hear the news too :( . I'm here in Lincoln, so if you need any help with finding homes for the pups, I can sure try to help you out. I'm so concerned that I keep seeing a number of Cavs for sale in our state, and wonder who they all are?

Remember we also have Midwest Cavalier rescue that I am in contact with if any pups need placement homes. Just give me a call - I'm in the Lincoln phone book or at the University (Lincoln).

Sheri Ramirez
Lincoln, NE

Karlin
13th March 2006, 07:15 PM
Thanks Sheri, that's great -- good that there's a contact now for breed rescue there, as needed. icon_thumbsup

WoodHaven
13th March 2006, 07:25 PM
If you think he would give the pups up we could have them picked up at any time you needed them placed- or we could help you place them. But if he is already "dealing" with a byb I didn't think he was doing this just for the experience. Sandy
CKCSC,USA - CMW co-chair for rescue

Luv2Camp53
13th March 2006, 07:51 PM
Thanks guys. I will call my brother this evening and try to start the ball rolling on finding homes for these babies. I thought I would probably have to get involved, as he has already demonstrated a complete disregard for everything I have tried to tell him over the past two years. I will keep everyone posted as this situation progresses. The puppies are only two days old, so it will be a while before they can even be considered as "adoptable". Sheri, I will especially keep you and Midwest Cavalier Rescue in mind as we go through this. The best scenario that I can envision is to turn all these babies over to Rescue as soon as they are old enough. I will need to do some convincing on this, as I think my brother is looking at $$$$'s, as he expressed his delight that there were so many puppies in the litter. (2 boys -1 tri and 1 blenheim, 4 girls - 1 tri, 3 blenheim). AARGHH. :x

jennapea
13th March 2006, 09:14 PM
Oh Donna. I would be livid! I feel bad for you because of the emotional connection not just between you and your brother, but between you and the breed. I am afraid he is looking and the $ signs as well, which makes me hesitate to think this won't be the last time he does it. And why turn to the byb you already warned him about? Well I guess I answered my own question. Because no respectable breeder would have allowed the studding. I feel bad for you, but do what you can to make sure they are going to families on a spay/neuter basis.
Take care! :cry:

Nicki
13th March 2006, 09:20 PM
So sorry Donna, hard enough when it's a friend but even worse when it's family.

I haven't anymore advice to offer, think the above is very sensible - especially trying to get her spayed asap.

Thinking of you

Karlin
14th March 2006, 12:17 AM
Well one approach to the $$$ is to let him know he could be financially liable for producing unhealthy puppies -- that courts do tend to look sympathetically on people who acquire a puppy at significant cost, that then has major health issues and as he hasn;t tested for eyes, hearts, hips, patellas or SM and all of these are known health issues in the breed for which there are tests and protocols, that he could be foooting someone else's $5-10,000 vet bill plus their court costs. There are consumer responsibilities of all sorts once he starts selling items such as puppies and I do hope he will also be reporting the income to the IRS... ;) . You can probably find a little leverage to address this situation.

Cathy T
14th March 2006, 12:59 AM
How frustrating for you!!! I had an aquaintance who was determined to breed her female. Oh she's so cute and everyone tells me I should breed her. I bombarded her with literature and printouts on sm, mvd, patellas, etc. Luckily I didn't lose her as a client in the meantime but I just couldn't sit by and listen to her talk about this. Well, hallelujah, she had her girl spayed and did not breed her. Praise God I got through to someone but it ook over 2 years!!! I can totally feel your aggravation. You might as well be smacking your head on a brick wall, huh?! Lots of good advice above though.

sramirez
14th March 2006, 03:25 PM
Donna - just get in touch w/me if you need to. Sandy (Woodhaven) is also connected with rescue, so she would be a good contact.

I've seen a couple cavs here in Lincoln at a local pet shop - usually the owner calls me to "stop in and see them" when she gets them in, but won't tell me where they're from (somewhere here in the state).
I just want to break into the store later and steal them :shock:

Since we can't pick our family (wow, that rule really IS true)thank heavens we have good friends we can chat with here :)
Maybe we need a topic forum regarding "the people that make us mad" so we can x-change remarks regarding that - mine would primarily be dumb drivers in our city :p

Sheri Ramirez

Luv2Camp53
8th May 2006, 03:48 PM
I just wanted to update you all on my brothers puppies. After much thought and some encouragement from Sheri Rameriz, I took it upon myself to try to home the puppies. My brother and I carefully calculated his expenses, which came to a little over $2400.00 for the litter, and he agreed that he would sell the puppies for just what he had spent. That was the first and most difficult hurdle. Then we set about finding suitable homes for the babies. All of the puppies have been placed with friends of mine, who either have another Cavalier, or who have been wanting one. All the families know the complete history (such as it is) of the litter, know there is no health guarantee, and have the means to deal with any potential health issues that may come up. (I think I scared a few people with my dire warnings and predictions, :shock: but I wanted to be absolutely certain that the new owners would be prepared for any health issues that may arise, and they they would not balk at what could be considerable costs associated with them). The puppies are nine weeks old and will begin leaving his house this week. The first ones going to their new homes are going to the families who already have a Cavalier, and the last two will be going to their new homes next week. All have had their first shots, and all, except one tri girl, seem to be quite healthy. The one little girl I have concerns about, has a "bunny hop" gait, and I suspect she may have some patella issues. I am quite familiar with this, as my Molly had severe luxating patellas and had to have both knees operated on when she was a little over a year old. So, that little girl has come home to live with me, and we have named her Abby. She stole my heart the first moment I saw her, and giving her to someone else would have been impossible for me. She is a precious thing, and so pretty. My Molly has already started to love her, and spends quite a bit of time laying on the floor allowing little Abby to chew on her ears and tail, and teaching her the manners that every puppy needs to know. My card reader from my digital camera is on the fritz, and I am going to replace it this week, so I will post pictures as soon as I can. This whole thing turned into a labor of love, and I certainly have a new and greater respect for all of you breeders who so carefully place your precious charges. My brothers female has an appointment for her spay operation as soon as the last puppy leaves for its new forever home, so that. as they say, is that. Hopefully I will be able to report that all the puppies remain healty and happy, and since I know ALL the new puppy mommies and daddies, I will be able to keep track as they grow into adulthood. I guess, all is well that ends well. Thank you all for all your support and encouragement and a special thanks to Sheri.

WoodHaven
8th May 2006, 04:07 PM
Thank you Donna, for taking the time and effort to deal with these pups in such an honest and caring way. Sandy

Claire
8th May 2006, 04:16 PM
Donna, I think you are a star for working so hard in finding homes for these puppies and warning the new owners of the problems they may have (fingers crossed the are fine), instead of them ending up in horrible places.... best of luck to all the new owners and I hope your little one is okay. :flwr:

Karlin
8th May 2006, 08:47 PM
Wow, you have done a stellar job and you and Sheri make a great team! :) You undertook a very tough situation against the odds. I know I for one will look forward to your pictures and hope Abby will do well. You certainly deserve bouquets of flowers!! :flwr:

sramirez
8th May 2006, 08:56 PM
Oh Donna - I had to attend a very, very sad funeral today and now you put such a lovely summary of your brother's puppies on the site today. Well, I'm usually a "no cry" person (I'm better at cussin' vs. cryin') but I tell you I've been in tears most of the day :( You're the saint for finding homes for so many of the "little ones" and esp. for taking in Abby. The "thanks" definately goes to you :flwr:

Sheri

Cathy T
9th May 2006, 02:37 AM
Wow! I just caught up on this story and am sooo proud of you! What a wonderful job you've done. Good work ;)

judy
9th May 2006, 08:02 AM
looking forward to seeing pictures of abby. nice work, enjoy your "reward."
I hope her knees will be ok.

Forest
9th May 2006, 12:40 PM
Yeah for you and all of the puppies. You have worked so hard for all of those puppies and really have a wonderful outcome. It will be nice for you to be able to watch them grow and especially your new baby Abby. She will have a wonderful life with someone who knows what to expect and give her so much love and any needed care and a lovely big sister to keep her company!!! :D :flwr:
Julie and the girls

Linda
9th May 2006, 01:14 PM
Amazing, so glad you were able to talk sense into him.
I am sure it was no easy task, and bless you for getting all those
puppies homes which you will be able to still see them and keep contact.

Yeah so glad Abby is with you, I hope your brother understood your
reasoning. You really must of put a lot of energy and time into this way
to go.

Sally
9th May 2006, 06:39 PM
Oh my gosh, you're incredible! cl*p

I'd actually thought about your brother's pups this past weekend when I was away on a girls weekend and one of my friends mentioned how she'd gotten her youngest pup (a pug) from a similar situation.

What a wonderful thing you've accomplished. All the families and especially all the puppies will benefit so much from your caring actions.

Can't wait to see pics of your little Abby

JeanKC
10th May 2006, 07:15 AM
The $2400 in expenses caught my eye...

Do you have a breakdown for this? Did it include any testing of the parents, and what vet things were done for the pups? How far along with shots, etc.

Bearing in mind that a legitimate breeder will have more costs involved in a litter, a lot of folks out there looking for a pet-quality puppy are going to see this and wonder why they can't find one for anything CLOSE to $400...

KC

Nicki
10th May 2006, 07:44 AM
Donna, you are amazing :flwr:

Thank you so much for everything you have done for these pups - and thank goodness the Mom is now going to be spayed. It sounds like you have managed to maintain a realtionship with your brother too, which I'm please to hear.

A big thank you too to all the wonderful people who have taken on these pups knowing that they might have problems - you are all stars.

We really hope that your wee Abby will be as healthy as possible - and look forward to seeing some phtoos.

WoodHaven
10th May 2006, 03:10 PM
The $2400 in expenses caught my eye...

Do you have a breakdown for this? Did it include any testing of the parents, and what vet things were done for the pups? How far along with shots, etc.

Bearing in mind that a legitimate breeder will have more costs involved in a litter, a lot of folks out there looking for a pet-quality puppy are going to see this and wonder why they can't find one for anything CLOSE to $400...

KC

Cavaliers have an average of 3 pups. So 2400/3 is 800.00 to begin with.

I have put about 3000.00 in the second to last breeding I did and she didn't have pups. Spent an additional 300.00 for a rebreeding and she didn't take. The equipment (whelping nests, heaters, clamps, puppy pens, whelping nest materials, antiseptic, aids for birthing) are very expensive. Of course this bitch comes from a long line of good hearts and clear MRI's. Breeding healthy dogs is very expensive and stressful.
Sandy

JeanKC
10th May 2006, 03:28 PM
The litter she posted about had six pups. Again, I understand that a committed breeder will have more costs...that's why I asked the question.

Your response is helpful, and I'd like to see some more breeders chime in. There's a fairly wide range of prices out there.

Not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I'm sure a lot of folks are curious.

KC

WoodHaven
10th May 2006, 03:46 PM
The litter she posted about had six pups. Again, I understand that a committed breeder will have more costs...that's why I asked the question.

Your response is helpful, and I'd like to see some more breeders chime in. There's a fairly wide range of prices out there.

Not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I'm sure a lot of folks are curious.

KC

No, I understand that this litter had 6-- but I used two years worth of CKCSC,USA statistics and the average size litter was 3.4 pups. This doesn't include all the matings that didn't have any pups. There are also costs if you have to ship (or drive) your bitch to the male. I have driven to Nebraska a few times to get the best match for my girls. Sandy

Karlin
10th May 2006, 07:00 PM
I understood Sandy to be saying the reason people don;t see more pups at $400 or even $800 is because most breeders would average out costs over litters -- eg if the bitch has one pup as sometimes happens, you won't pay thousands for it but the same general range the breeder normally charges. If the average litter is 3-4 pups then you;d get costs based on that general figure and I would guess take a loss sometimes and sometimes have more puppies than expected.

The issue of costs comes up a lot. I can say that in the UK and Ireland registered pups from good breeders are considerably less than in North America. I do not kn ow why that is the case but it would be very unusual to pay more than about $600-$800 for a cavalier from a good breeder in Ireland; the UK generally is in that vicinity as well. I don't know about the big name breeders but Jaspar for example came from a breeder considered to be one of the good quality kennels in Ireland (eg he exports to some of the well known breeders in the US for example and his dogs have featured in many of the well known UK lines) and he cost me euro450 (at the time that would only have been about $450 but now is about $600).

Overall I think the price reflects what the market will bear as well as personal costs -- keep in mind that cavaliers are in the top 7 dog breeds in the UK and Ireland so are one of the most common small breed dogs you see! They are much rarer in the US and the demand is high for puppies. Personally, I would be very happy to support a breeder that I know does all the relevant testing, regardless of cost for puppies.

Luv2Camp53
10th May 2006, 10:24 PM
There were 6 puppies, which is a huge litter for Cavaliers, as I understand it. He did no testing on the female and he does not own the male. He sold the puppies for $400.00 each with no health guarantee. He had to pay a $1200.00 "stud fee" :shock: . and he had two visits to the vets for his female prior to the whelping. One was a month after he figured she was pregnant, He went in to "make sure". That bill was a little over $100.00. I am not sure exactly what they did. The bills all have procedure numbers, so I guess you need some sort of key to de-code it. Then he went in about a week before she was due to have an x-ray, if I remember correctly, to determine how many puppies there were. That was when he got the big surprise that there were six. That bill was over $250.00. He took Maggie in shortly after she gave birth as she developed a plugged milk duct on one of her nipples. There was one follow-up visit for that and the total bill for that was another $100.00 plus her medications which were $20.00 I think. Then there were two visits to the vet with all the puppies for worming and shots. Anyway, it came to just over $2400.00 for everything. I think it really amazed him at just how much it costs to have a litter of puppies. And if Maggie had only had three puppies, which is the average....well, he figured out pretty quickly that you do not get rich on breeding your Cavalier. Once we actully sat down and did all the math, I was able to convince him that breeding his Maggie was just not a good "cottage industry" to get into. PS. Abby is doing wonderfully. I just love her to death.

JeanKC
11th May 2006, 05:54 AM
Thanks for the replie(s). These are the kinds of things buyers don't think about.... :flwr:

KC