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judy
21st May 2006, 03:22 AM
I got Zack home. Things seem worse than i expected, mainly because of things that the person at the vet office said and the ominous way they said it.

They brought zack out with one of those cone collars on his neck. He looked awful. He was groaning. I asked if i could take the collar off of him, and she insisted he keep it on for something like 3 days, at all times. I had spoken to someone else earlier on the phone when i called to see if he was ok, and she said he had the collar on, and she said i only needed to keep it on him when i couldn't watch him. But when i picked him up i could see he was in no condition to be biting his incision. It was obvious. He could barely move and he was suffering. He was groaning. His eyes showed that he was suffering. and that collar was awkward and rigid and wasn't doing his comfort level any good. but she said that if he so much as licks his wound, it can get infected, like, she made me feel like it wouldn't take much for him to get infected. When i said iwas going to take the collar off and just keep an eye on him, she used a very threateniing tone, "That's up to you, but we don't recommend that," and i told her the other person at her office i talked to earlier said i could take it off except if i wasn't going to be watching him, and she just repeated that wasn't what they recommended. I didn't like her manner or her attitude anyway.

So, when i got him home, i took it off and he's just sleeping. He came out of his crate once, then went right back in. There's no way he will be biting his incision or licking it until he feels better. They gave him a pain shot which is supposed to last until 10pm. Like you said, it's probably later as it's healing that they're going to want to lick it. but he just isn't feeling well enough to lick it. He looks like he looked on the days when he used to vomit and lay around and not eat all day.

I tried giving him staphisagria pellets and he turned away from it. I dissolved it in a few drops of water and used a syringe to squirt it into his mouth on the side, and about an hour later, did the same thing with the arnica. Next i guess i'll do the phosphorus? I'm not sure what i'm doing.

I wonder if it has any potency the way i'm doing it.?

So--they gave me pain pills for him, Tramadol, and said i am supposed to give them to him whether he needs it or not, or actually what they said was that he WILL need them. "It was a very painful surgery." ??
this is really different from the reassurance i've been getting from everyone else i talked to. They said they observed him after surgery and then found that he was in pain so they gave him a pain shot, and the doctor wants him to have pain pills, every 8 hours until they're gone. That's SIX days at 3x per day, after today. He's supposed to get the first pain pill at 10pm.

So now i'm scared--that when the pain shot wears off later, instead of getting better, he will be in pain that's bad enough to need pain pills. But for 6 days, that makes no sense at all.

I don't think i want to give him a pain pill later if he's acting ok. He had the surgery at 1pm, about. I guess. They weren't that clear about it. I had a sucky person to deal with, not good communication.

So, if the surgery was at 1, as the night goes on, he should be feeling better and better? If so, i don't want to give him a pain pill, but then, i'll be asleep around 1am and i guess he'll have to wear that cone thing??

If i put the onesies on him (i got 5 different sizes, i'll just return the ones that are the wrong size later) will he be able to chew the incision through the cloth?

Could it be that this particular vet did a procedure that's more painful than the normal one? She siad the incision is under the skin. How can that be? The sutures are the kind that dissolve and don't have to be removed later. Could this be why they're so uptight about him licking it and about him being in pain?

i sure hope Zack gets well soon, he's just sleeping and not moving. i hope later tonight he'll feel better. I'm not feeling too great about this.

Then, also part of the whole thing is the money. I called three vet offices and asked how much is neutering. One said $120, one said $175 and this one said $200. so i thought it was going to be $200. But when i got there today, they said they strongly recommend some bloodwork before the surgery to give him the best chance of not having a problem with the anaesthesia, which is $110 more, and it's up to me if i want to have it but i have to sign this form saying that i know that there's a risk with the anaesthesia and on that form i have to check a box saying whether i want the bloodwork or not and sign it--this seemed very manipulative to me. I would've thought bloodwork would be included as routine, and included in the price they quoted. What they do is, you get there, you're worried about your dog, they tell you he will be safer if he has the bloodwork but "it's up to you," and it's another $110. How slimey. They should've told me this on the phone when i called. So, they originally say $200. Then, it's $310. And when i finally pay, it turns out to be $387, almost double what they told me on the phone. They charged another $47 for the pain shot after the surgery. I would've thought that wouldl be included in the price they told me when i asked how much, but they try to make it seem like this is not routine, they observed Zack after the surgery and he was in pain so they gave him a shot, but they couldn't tell me this in advance, it depends on the dog, this feels slimey. And they, they charged for the pain pills and for the cone collar. They should've told me this in advance too. They want to make it seem like they can't know in advance, it's just after they observe the dog. but when i talked to the vet on the phone yesterday, she told me she was going to send him home with pain pills.

I think they are saying he needs six days of pain pills and a cone collar 24/7 for several days to justify tacking more money onto my bill. I guess i'll write the head doctor a letter complaining about this, but i dont' see how it will do any good. He is probably just the head slime ball.

I was talking to Lisa and she looked at her bill for Belle's spaying. Everything needed was covered for under $200. Belle also had her eyes checked and the microchip and a bunch of other stuff, and the whole bill was under $300. The spaying itself, including bloodwork (clotting time) and whatever was needed (NO pain pills, NO cone collar) was under $200.

I feel quite ripped off. and i dont' trust what they're telling me about Zack's care, whether he needs the pain pills, whether it matters if he licks the wound. I don't know what to think. I sure don't want him having any complications because i don't want to go back there for more treatment and get gouged in the wallet some more.

Of course, if that happens, i 'll go to another vet, but that will be embarrassing since i didnt' get the neutering done there. Not that i care. I went to these people because this vet cured him after he'd been sick for a month and the other two vets both said they were stumped, didn't know what to do next other than expensive and invasive tests.

:?

judy
21st May 2006, 08:00 AM
it's time to give zack his pain pill, at least according to the vet's instructions.

i dont know whether it's the right thing to do.

so far, he's still about like he was when i first got him, and he does seem to be hurting, just because when he does walk, which is minimal, he takes two or three steps and then lays down, like it hurts. no interest in food or new yummy chew toys, not sleeping that much, just laying and staring. he did go out in the backyard and poop and pee. first he went outside and sat down on the patio--is that bad for the wound? i think the scrotum is right down there. oh well. then after sitting there for a while, he yelped a few times and jumped up and went on the dirt and started pooping, and it went on a long time, he was straining. it started out a normal kind and finished as diarrhea, with droplets of it spread around, he was moving all arond and straining. then he went back inside. for the first time he did lick near the wound. He didnt' lick the wound itself but near by. so, i put the onesie on him. because he keeps laying down, i can't see yet how it's fitting. i hope it will work out because he looked so miserable in that cone collar when i picked him up.

so...i dont' know whether i should give him that pain pill. it's not like just because a vet tells you to do something it's right. The whole first month i had zack vets were telling me wrong things to do, things that weren't good for him. and i did what they said because i didn't know.

i think i should wait and see how he feels as time goes by. It's 11pm now. i was supposed to give the pill at 10. if he needs it, i want him to have it. I just don't know what's right. other dogs don't get pain pills, Belle had a whole oophorectomy and no pain pills. why does zack get 6 days worth? WHAT DID THAT VET DO TO MY DOG? Did she neuter him in an unusually painful way???

sarahg
21st May 2006, 10:12 AM
Sorry no advice Judy but i hope he feels better and is back to his normal self really soon :lotsaluv:

judy
21st May 2006, 10:30 AM
thanks sarah, i sure appreciate that.

judy
21st May 2006, 11:12 AM
progress!! at about 1am, he suddenly walked over to the booda bone and started seriously chewing on it. :) that's what i was waiting to see. so i gave him some cottage cheese and he loved that, about a tablespoon. when he finished that he went back to the booda bone, so i made him some chicken and rice and he wolfed that down. now he's chewing noisily on the pressed hoof stick. i'd give him more food but the vet person said just give him half of his usual amount otherwise he'll vomit. maybe i'll just stay up and feed him more in an hour.

i'm so happy to see him hungry. i held off on the pain pill. i looked it up on the web, it's Ultram. Side effects can include upset stomach and constipation. i don't know what's right, i don't want hm to be in pain.

anyway, he's acting starved, i'm so happy. karlin said 12 hours and that's pretty much exactly what it was.

i hope the wound will be ok. the scrotum sure looks swollen to me. what would not swollen look like? he's had staphisagria twice. arnica a couple of times. i think i'll give him some colloidal silver.

Nicki
21st May 2006, 11:18 AM
OH Judy I don't know what to say...but my first instinct is NEVER to use that vets again.

It's difficult as we are always led to believe that the professionals know best...but I have had to learn that they are partners in the care of our companions [and us!] and although i do listen carefully to what they say, I also do my own research and trust my instincts and common sense. Remember not all vets are created equally - and they are not all as wonderful as Rory's mum, Kendall on here either.

I really think they were bad about the bloodwork - yes it can pick up unexpected problems like kidney and liver disease {which you don't see symptoms of until things are really bad}, but they would be extremely rare in a young healthy dog anyway.

In the UK, they don't even ask if you want pre op bloodwork unless the dog is much older.

One of the holisitc vets who writes in a well known magazine actually did a feature on this recently, and said it was really just an extra way of making money. If the dog is running around quite happily, no shortness of breath, no visible problems etc he would not bother with it.

I really hope Zack is feeling a bit better now, he's only young so should bounce back quite quickly.


It's good that he could toilet ok, they do always seem to be a bit loose the first couple of times after anaesthesia, but that should settle today - Jack was fine the 2nd day.

I think they are really panciking you about infection...just keep a watch on the wound, if it gets red and inflamed and he's obviously bothered by it, then you might have a problem.

Jack was a bit sore the first couple of days, but he didn't come home with any pain pills. A bitch spey is far more invasive and would be more painful, so I would expect pills for that - it would also normally be a more expensive procedure.

just a thought, Zack's testicles were both in the scrotal sack, weren't they? I don't remember you saying that he had an undescended one, but may have missed this.

If this is the case, then the surgery would be more invasive/painful etc.

I would dose him with the Arnica 30x 1 dose 3 X daily{ for up to 5 days if necessary} - it should be just as effective in water, but avoid him eating anything for 15 minutes before or after a dose {same with all homoeopathy}.

He probably won't be interested in the chewies for a few days...Jack was heaps better yesterday and is almost back to his old self today, his op was Thursday.

THe Staphisagria won't do any harm, try to roll Zack over gently on to his side so you can look at the area. It may look a bit bruised, but see if there is fluid in the sac. If so, keep going with the Staph. and maybe even try the frozen peas.

Will try to keep popping on here to see how you're doing - but thinking of you both, try to calm down as Zack will be picking up that you are stressed too. Do you have any Rescue Remedy [available from the pharmacy]? that would help calm you.

VB ((((hugs)))

Nicki
21st May 2006, 11:21 AM
Sorry was posting at the same time!

SO pleased to hear that he's feeling better. Don't overdo the food, maybe leave it now 'til morning, and don't let him eat too much of the chews, his tummy will be a bit delicate for a few days.

If he's eating that well, I doubt he is in very much pain, so if he was mine I wouldn't bother with the Ultram unless he seems to need it.

He will be swollen, but see how it is in the morning, it will be obvious if it's full of fluid

judy
21st May 2006, 12:05 PM
thanks nicki--i did give him some more cottage cheese, not too much. hopefully he'll be comfortable enough to sleep while im sleeping. i decided to put the cone collar on him because the onesie i got didn't have legs on it and it seemed to me that zack would be able to find his way to the incision through the leg hole. he didn't seem to mind the collar.

they even had a more thorough blood panel in his chart that was done at the ER in mid February that i gave them for his chart at that time. they said that wasn't recent enough. what a rip off. i could understand if they wanted clotting time tested before the surgery maybe, but when belle got spayed, their vet only charged about $12 for that. boy did i get burned. slime.

i'm so glad to hear Jack is coming along. :)

rory
21st May 2006, 05:04 PM
The pre-op bloodwork usually checks liver and kidney values. If he had previous blood work that showed no problems wiith the liver and kidneys, it was probably unnecessary. But given that he was rather sickly initially, I can understand wanting to do it. The people who check you in are just techs or receptionists doing what they're told - often with lilttle understanding of what they're saying. I realize now how little I knew when I was a vet assistant!! :shock:

The sutures are buried and dissolvable. But licking is still discouraged either way (buried or not). And it can only take a couple minutes of licking for an animal to pull the sutures right out! :? But the 1st woman was right in that you really only need to have the collar on or a onesie on if you can't watch them. Keep an eye on him and see if he starts bothering the incision as he feels better. If he does, you probably want to put the e=collar on or the onesie at least, when you can't watch him. You'd hate to come home and find he's torn the suttures out! And it's only for a fe days. He'll survive. He probably seemed more uncomfortable before because of the surgery, not because of the collar. It's a nuisance, but the dogs adjust easily. In my opinion - better safe than sorry. Some dogs don't seem to bother their incisions at all, others won't leave them alone. See how Zackc is and judge from there.

He will probably be most painful 3 days out?/ That's what they told me about Rory's surgery. I wouldn't bother with the ice packs for Zack. That is to decrease swelling that Rory had because his testicles were already large and mature, so there was a great deal of swelling post=op for him as his now empty scrotum swelled and filled where the testicles had previously been. But it might help.

If he seems uncomfortable, I'd give the Tramadol, but you don't need to give it for 6 days unless he's actually painful for six days. Give it symptomatically. If he's not acting painful, don't need to give it. It'll definitely make him feel better. The diarrhea is no doubt froom the anesthesia. Not uncommon to have some GI upset after anesthesia. If it goes on onger than a day or so, might want to give a call to the vet. If you don't feel comfortable with the tech or whoever they put on, ask for the vet to call you later. And ideally the one who you saw before and liked.

Sorry you had such a crappy experience. I would write them and let them know that you were upset with the fact that they quoted you half of what ended up costing you and that they should have included the collar and pills in the estimate - at least as a high end of a range. Did you sign anything beforehand? An estimate that said it might be 15% more or less than the estimate? If so, they need to honor that estimate unless they specifically got permission from you to go over. Make it clear that because of this experience you are seriously considering going elsewhere. They may not realize that this protocol is really upsetting clients who feel they are getting taken advantage of and ripped off. Explain how the techs made you feel guilty for not doing the pre=op blood work or for not using the e-collar and how you got conflicting info on that, too.

Unfortunately, this is very common and just how most vet hospitals run. They're not trying to take advantage of you. They're just not necessarily looking at things from the perspective of the client.

Karlin
21st May 2006, 08:01 PM
:shock: That is so totally counter to how every vet over here I've ever encountered, handles neuters and advises clients.

Like Rory says, I can see how if this was your usual vet, and knew his history, they MIGHT have wanted to do the blood tests. However I can't imagine all the other fussing. Or the pain pills round the clock for so many days! (also her advice is really good about talking to them about what happened and how frustrating it was for you).

To be honest this sounds like a lot of BS to me, to push the costs up. If you don;t use the tablets I'd take them back in and say you don;t need them and feel that you were pushed to take them, when the advice you received on a neuter was that pain tablets are not necessary abnd certainly the costs were not included and you were not told about this when they discussed the neuter by phone or when you left him in. It would be the norm for them to probably not quote the cost of a collar in a neuter however.

You always have the right to say 'no' though. Many vets are pushed to keep adding on things to run up the cost of a bill, by whoever owns the practice. I have encountered this before and it can be very hard in the circumstances of being in the vet's office to just say 'no'. A good way out of such situations is to say, thank you for their perspective; you will leave those purchases for now and if he shows signs of needing pain killers or collars or whatever, you will come right down and get them. :roll: I've used that line before when the vets try to push special bags of diet foods etc, which is one way they get a nice big margin from sales. They will get at least a 100% markup on those bags of food for example, so they REALLY like making those sales, and you can do just fine unless it is really a major medical issue, by adjusting the diet appropriately or getting a 'sensitive' diet from a good food maker where it isn't a 'prescription diet'.

Anyway I hope he is doing well. They typically LOOK as if they might be totally out of it -- and they are, due to the anaesthetic, not due to pain! It takes up to 24 hours ofr the anaesthetic to clear their system enough that behaviour gets back more or less to normal -- usually about 12 hours though -- then they go from looking out of it to their old selves.

When my two female cats were spayed (sisters spayed the same day) they could hardly walk, much like Zack.

Anyway I am sure it will all be much smoother now but I'd consider a vet that's a lot more straightforward and less likely to push you to take things you don't necessarily need.

That said and a final caveat: every individual situation is different and they may have been offering the best available advice.

But I have NEVER heard of a dog having to take painkillers for 1 day, much less *6*, for a neuter!!

rory
21st May 2006, 08:52 PM
fyi - Many, if not most, vets do not work on commision so it really doesn't matter to them if they sell more or less. so don't assume that because they're suggesting a diet it's to make a profit. most associates (i.e. employees, not owners) make a flat rate regardless of what they bring in. this is changing some, but i think it's still more common than what you are suggesting.

therefore - most vets are making suggestions based on what they believe is best for the pet. i think it would be considered pretty unethical for a vet to suggest something just to make a profit and i'm rather insulted that everyone always assumes this to be the case.

rory did go home with pain meds for his neuter and I was grateful for them. I probably gave it to him for 3 days. it is not unusual and really depends on the circumstances. some dogs hardly seem to notice the procedure while others seem really put out by it and painful for a few days.

WoodHaven
21st May 2006, 10:27 PM
Sorry the neuter was over the top stressful on both you and your boy.

I had one of our boys neutered for his new owners-- he had one testicle retained-- the neuter took almost two hours. They started at his inguinal area and had to proceed into his abdominal cavity (the testicle "pipping" was hooked up high near the kidney. I didn't do the blood work (boy was 6 months old and had always been healthy). Total cost was 200.00. This boy had a reaction to the internal stitches-- they seeped and the vet saw him twice and didn't charge me any extra for these trips. This and my razor burn males are my only experience with neuters. Neither was ideal. Sandy

Karlin
21st May 2006, 10:41 PM
Good points, and I certainly don't mean to insult vets generally :) and I know it isn't the individual vets who make a commission. But it is the overall practice which increases its income from sales of additional items. Food is a very profitable source of adidtional income and I have been encouraged a few too many times to -- for example -- buy expensive diets for sensitive stomachs that cost considerably more than I would pay for an excellent commercially available sensitive diet formulation from Royal Canin or James Wellbeloved. I'd have greater belief in the benefits of the prescription diet for basic stomach upset if I didn't have so much experience now of dealing with cats in particular who respond very well to the commercially available sensitive diet formulas. Before trying to get someone to pay very high prices for prescription diets vets should (dependent on circumstances of course) suggest clients try (and perhaps consider selling!) a food that might resolve the problem at considerably lower cost over the lifetime of the animal than something only available thru the vet.

I've been told directly by vets, and read posts elsewhere from vets noting, that some are pushed to add on items such as foods to an ordinary bill by the head of their practice. This is well documented in human medical practice as well, especially where insurance companies are covering the bill. I have particular vets I avoid as they will always, always find a few things that can go on to the bill. And I know those who will say, try doing x, y and z and IF those don't work, consider coming in so we can try something else -- as long as that is an appropriate option.

I like to stick with the latter; and also people who don't add lots onto the bill after the fact.

The last 'extra' I had added on a neuter was when a rescue dog recently needed an umbilical hernia repaired and this wasn't apparent til he was on the table. The vets were extremely apologetic for having added this extra cost and took time to explain why it was necessary on the phone then again when I collected the dog when they went through the bill item by item. As I know these vets I know this was of course the right judgement call and appreciated their concern. :)

Cathy T
22nd May 2006, 02:25 AM
I was curious so I pulled out Jake's records from his neutering. His castration was $155, microchip $44, 5 rimadyl tablet $12.50.

I'm sorry you has such a bad experience. You've both been through so much before.

Hope you're both feeling better this evening!

WoodHaven
22nd May 2006, 02:37 AM
The boy that had over 6 inches of incision only had two days of pain control. On day two he was trying to escape his x-pen and play with the other dogs. Days later the incision LOOKED awful-- but he didn't need the e-collar and he didn't bother the incision at all-- even when it puckered and weeped. I hope your boy is doing much better now. Sandy

judy
22nd May 2006, 03:34 AM
It seems the process is going ok, zack has seemed fine since 1am, Karlin called it exactly, it was 12 hours. 15 minutes earlier i wouldn't have thought he could become so much livelier, like his usual self. he is taking it easy today, not sleeping so much but quiet. I'm keeping an eye on him, he's wearing the onesie, not sure if it's fitting right or not, i put the collar on him when i went to bed last night, dont' want any setbacks.

Kendall, both his testicles were descended. I don't thnk they encouraged the bloodwork because he was ill before. They didn't seem to be treating the whole thing that personally, i feel sure it's something they present to all patients and was not related to his history. That's the way their form that you have sign is worded.

after reading your post, i decided to give him a tramadol today, but i dont know for sure if he needed it, he kept laying down and then getting up and moving to another spot, so i thought maybe he was having discomfort. But if i hadn't had any pain pills, i wouldn't have thought that he needed them. i guess it's good to have them, for first aid, in case i ever need them for him.

I'm glad you said the worst day might be the third one. Even if it doesn't happen, it's better not to have him act worse on the third day and not have expected the possibility.

i do agree that vets recommend treatments because they think it's best for the animal, and i dont' think that they were recommending things to me just for the money. But it's convenient if it works out that it makes extra money for them. Reflecting on my angst about the surgery yesterday, i was angry about the bill and i was also angry about that woman who told me i had to give him pain pills whether he needed them or not and had to wear the collar because if he licked one time, he could get infected, i didn't need her to be encouraging me to be alarmed like that. Also, when i picked him up she gave me the bill and i was reading it, and she asked for it back, and i said "just a minute," and she kept demanding it back, and then she grabbed it out of my hands! she was a social retard. This kind of thing led to my calling them slime balls.

when i first dropped him off, she took him from my arms saying she was going to go ask the vet a question i had asked about giving him the homeopathic remedy after surgery, and she came back without zack, told me the vet would not give him the remedy, and then I said "Well, can i say good bye to him?" She went back to where he was and then came out and said "No, they are already doing stuff to him." i felt so sad when i got in the car to drive away.

I guess i'll write a letter to the head vet who owns the practice and just let him know that i would expect when i ask how much a procedure costs, to be told what to expect, what routine common charges could be anticipated such as the bloodwork, the pain shot, the collar and the pain pills. I should tell him that i won't be able to continue to recommend them anymore when i'm chatting with other dog owners.

i do like the vet who did the surgery, i like how she can think in creative ways. that can come in handy. I'm thinking i would not go back to them for routine stuff anymore, no more neuters there, just go to my original vet who i think is fine for the routine stuff and has never given me the sense that they were trying to bill me for all they could. Just the opposite. But if Zack or another pet gets some illness that no one can figure out, i will call this woman who neutered him.

judy
22nd May 2006, 05:39 AM
.... I've used that line before when the vets try to push special bags of diet foods etc, which is one way they get a nice big margin from sales. They will get at least a 100% markup on those bags of food for example, so they REALLY like making those sales, and you can do just fine unless it is really a major medical issue, by adjusting the diet appropriately or getting a 'sensitive' diet from a good food maker where it isn't a 'prescription diet'.

When zack was sick and not getting better when i first had him, i went to a new vet and i liked her, she seemed intelligent and knowlegeable and experienced, and i liked her manner, which open minded and flexible, searching. The other vet hadn't suggested i do anything with his diet. She said to give him Hills ID Diet, which i was to buy from her. She sold me a certain amount that she said he should try to see if it helped. It was canned. I had only been giving him kibble before, and i believed he needed some kibble in his diet, and i didn't want him to get spoiled eating only canned food (which is funny considering what happened subsequently) so i went back to get the same kind of food in kibble form. I was unhappy to find that they only sold a huge bag of it, not the usual size i get, so that if he didn't eat it or if it didn't help, i was stuck with a giant bag of dog kibble and it cost about $25. :? It didn't help and i only fed it to him for a few days before learning more about the healthy brands you can buy at the store which had better ingredients than the ID Diet food, which contained various grain allergens And also, i don't have any place to store a bag that size. The doctor didn't try to sell me that, i did that on my own, but in an irrational emotional state of mind where i was in a mode of grabbing at things to try. But i was told that the kibble only came in those big sizes, you can't get it in a smaller size.


Anyway I hope he is doing well. They typically LOOK as if they might be totally out of it -- and they are, due to the anaesthetic, not due to pain! It takes up to 24 hours ofr the anaesthetic to clear their system enough that behaviour gets back more or less to normal -- usually about 12 hours though -- then they go from looking out of it to their old selves.

You are exactly right. I was told the surgery was around 1pm and he suddenly became more like his usual self at 1am. 10 minutes before, i wouldn't have considered it possible. So we were up late last night. 8)

judy
22nd May 2006, 05:55 AM
The pre-op bloodwork usually checks liver and kidney values....

He had liver and kidney function tests and blood cell counts and a Buffy Coat profile. i got a copy of it. i've never seen a Buffy Coat profile before. must be expensive.

judy
22nd May 2006, 06:06 AM
... I had one of our boys neutered for his new owners-- he had one testicle retained-- the neuter took almost two hours. They started at his inguinal area and had to proceed into his abdominal cavity (the testicle "pipping" was hooked up high near the kidney. I didn't do the blood work (boy was 6 months old and had always been healthy). Total cost was 200.00. This boy had a reaction to the internal stitches-- they seeped and the vet saw him twice and didn't charge me any extra for these trips. This and my razor burn males are my only experience with neuters. Neither was ideal. Sandy

That's how i think it should be. That's how i'd like to think i'd do business if it was me. This vet i went to is apparently more expensive than most, i already knew that. It's not the price so much as not being informed about it when i called around and asked. I was already on the fence between choosing this vet for the neuter for $200 or taking him to the one that was $120, since i expected it to be a simple procedure and know that they all do a lot of them, i was considering the less expensive one. I knew the vet i chose to go to was a little more than the others for office visits, a few dollars more, and so i wasn't surprised when they said $200. I just assumed that would include things like necessary bloodwork or pain shots during or after the surgery.

Poor little dog, what a rough operation! What's a razor burn?

My daughter's dog was spayed for under $200 too, including bloodtest and whatever else was needed. I thought $200 was a little high, but acceptable. i never would've had them do it if they'd been open about what would not be covered that they would be recommending.

judy
22nd May 2006, 06:29 AM
......I've been told directly by vets, and read posts elsewhere from vets noting, that some are pushed to add on items such as foods to an ordinary bill by the head of their practice. This is well documented in human medical practice as well, especially where insurance companies are covering the bill.....

i went in to my doctor to have my cholesterol checked one day. It just so happened that i was coming down with a cold or flu that day. when they took my temperature, they said i had a slight fever. A week or so later i got a letter from the doctor saying my cholesterol was good but that a heart disease marker was elevated and inviting me to come in to discuss it. I went in and was told that my CRP was elevated and this might be an early warning of heart disease. I asked if anything else could cause the CRP to be elevated and she said that infection can elevate it. I recalled that i was coming down with the flu when i had the blood drawn, and had a fever. She didn't seem very interested in that. She said i should take a supplement that her office sells, take it for 3 months and come back and have the CRP checked again. I bought the stuff but i decided not to take it because i wanted to see if the elevation went away without taking anything. It did. CRP was normal when i went back. The doctor thought it was because i'd been taking the supplement. I'm pretty sure it was because it was only elevated because i was sick with a fever that day.

I've noticed over the years that doctors offices are selling various vitamin supplements more and more, my mother's doctor does this. I like to think they really believe in it, they are recommending it for the good of the patient. but it's way more expensive than supplements you can buy at the store, and i've had a doctor tell me that while you can buy it from the store, the kind they are selling is more reliable as to quality.

judy
22nd May 2006, 07:14 AM
I was curious so I pulled out Jake's records from his neutering. His castration was $155, microchip $44, 5 rimadyl tablet $12.50.

I'm sorry you has such a bad experience. You've both been through so much before.

Hope you're both feeling better this evening!

That sounds like the typical amount that I've been hearing. I bet if i call the vet who quoted the price of $120 and asked what extra costs there might be, they wouldn't come to over $200. No pain pills or collar for Jake?

We are both feeling much better tonight, thanks :) . The vet said he could go back to normal activities in a week. I think he could really use a dose of Dog Park next sunday. i'm about to take him on a short walk, to help his metabolism, work off the drugs.

sarahg
22nd May 2006, 07:16 AM
Judy so glad you are both feeling better :flwr:

judy
22nd May 2006, 08:47 AM
thanks sarah :flwr: lots of light at the end of the tunnel now. zack seems happy tonight, even wearing his little cone around his head for bedtime. :lol:

Karlin
22nd May 2006, 12:48 PM
Glad to hear he sounds back to himself!


a Buffy Coat profile

What is that? It sounds like a a fashion profile for TV celebrities... :)

Just fyi a spay usually costs about a third more than a neuter as it is more involved. useful as a point of comparison with your daughter's dog.

From the other thread on weeing outside -- just thought I'd suggestworking to get Zack so that you can take him out on a lead. I'd be really concerned about having to put down wee pads every time it rains -- as he will then be like this all his life, considering it acceptab;le to go in the house if he decides he doesn't want to go outside.

The time to get him used to going on a lead is to take him out first thing in the morning and put him on an extensa-lead if needed so he has lots of freedom to move about and go. Because this is the point where he needs to go, having been inside all night, it is a good time to put him in a situation where he is very likely to have success for both you and him -- he will go, you can reward; thus setting a new pattern of behaviour for him. Then keep taking him out on that extensalead and wait for him to go -- you need to treat this as a total re-housetraining where you need to be surte he goes as youexpect so that he won;t have the option of going inside, EVER. Judy, you really, really, really do not want a dog that you will need to have weeing and defecating inside simply because of rain, throughout his life. He's more than old enough now to be going out whether he likes it or not -- remember that he doesn;t run the house and make such decisions, you do. Take along some really nice treat like some bits of chicken or hotdog to treat him as soon as he wees and poops outside. better yet start to train him on a word that you repeat as he goes and then treat when he is done and praise. It is easy to get dogs trained to go on command in this way which is very useful! You will likely have to give some time tyo this initially, waiting for him to go, but you absolutely must do this or he is going to make your life very inconvenient.

WoodHaven
22nd May 2006, 03:23 PM
Poor little dog, what a rough operation! What's a razor burn?

My daughter's dog was spayed for under $200 too, including bloodtest and whatever else was needed. I thought $200 was a little high, but acceptable. i never would've had them do it if they'd been open about what would not be covered that they would be recommending.

They use electric razors to cut all the hair off the incision areas. The vet tech went crazy and shaved a huge area- but my males scrotum looked like it was dry shaved (I did that to my underarms once and it hurt for days). It actually looked beet red the day I forced the receptionist to get me the appointment. Sandy

judy
23rd May 2006, 08:54 AM
a Buffy Coat profile

What is that? It sounds like a a fashion profile for TV celebrities... :)

Something to do with vampires?


Just fyi a spay usually costs about a third more than a neuter as it is more involved. useful as a point of comparison with your daughter's dog.

Yes. Zack's neuter cost more than twice as much as Belle's spaying. It's staggering.


From the other thread on weeing outside -- just thought I'd sugges tworking to get Zack so that you can take him out on a lead. I'd be really concerned about having to put down wee pads every time it rains -- as he will then be like this all his life, considering it acceptab;le to go in the house if he decides he doesn't want to go outside.

good point! So far, when i've done that, he hasn't used the pads, he seems to take no notice of them, and he' didn't pee indoors when i put the pads down, so i haven't really thought about it creating problems. the times he did pee indoors after he was housetrained--three times so far--those were times when i did not have the pads out. so when i left the pads, i was hoping he'd pee on them instead of on inappropriate things. but yet, this is not the message i want to give.


The time to get him used to going on a lead is to take him out first thing in the morning and put him on an extensa-lead if needed so he has lots of freedom to move about and go. Because this is the point where he needs to go, having been inside all night, it is a good time to put him in a situation where he is very likely to have success for both you and him -- he will go, you can reward; thus setting a new pattern of behaviour for him. Then keep taking him out on that extensalead and wait for him to go -- you need to treat this as a total re-housetraining where you need to be surte he goes as youexpect so that he won;t have the option of going inside, EVER. Judy, you really, really, really do not want a dog that you will need to have weeing and defecating inside simply because of rain, throughout his life.

no way. i do not want that.!!!
it's clear to me that zack has always been easy and highly trainable, and any "issues" he's had have actually been my issues or misunderstanding, my own lack of knowedge or skill.



He's more than old enough now to be going out whether he likes it or not -- remember that he doesn;t run the house and make such decisions, you do.

Thanks. as obvious as that sounds, it sometimes helps to hear it in certain contexts where i wasn't seeing it like that. i think i will get him a raincoat :)


Take along some really nice treat like some bits of chicken or hotdog to treat him as soon as he wees and poops outside. better yet start to train him on a word that you repeat as he goes and then treat when he is done and praise. It is easy to get dogs trained to go on command in this way which is very useful! You will likely have to give some time tyo this initially, waiting for him to go, but you absolutely must do this or he is going to make your life very inconvenient.

thank you very much for this advice and inspiration. Today, i got out the retractable leash i have never used before, it was still in the packaging, the rain had cleared and it was a beautiful day, so out we went. I loved the retractable leash, it was lovely the way he could run more free ahead of me. I'd been using a 6' lead. walking him on the retractable leash felt so much more relaxed. He seemed to be walking with me, rather than being controlled by me. Before this, i didn't let him stop and sniff. I treated it more like exercise and just kept walking. Once in a while, i would feel him being drug along instead of coming with me when i tugged him forward, and i'd turn to find him trying to pee. :lol: I'm laughing at myself. I was not in a mode of using walks for toileting but just for exercise. So, today i was really enjoying him being so free and yet still under my control where i could keep him safe by being alert to what was going on and tighting up at intersections and things. It really felt nicer to be walking together without him being under such tight control. It's a 24 foot leash.

and glory be, he pooped!! :thmbsup: :D :rah: b*n*n* :fool: cl*p
i was totally stoked.

ever since i got him, inspired by what i read in John Ross's Puppy PreSchool, i would tell him to pee when i put him in the backyard, and would praise him for peeing when he did. I would also do the same wiht pooping but it happens much more infrequently, it hasn't seemed like he was learning it. but "Go pee" has at times seemed to be understood.

i can't wait til the next time it rains. I've always loved walking in the rain. I am looking forward to showing zack how fun it can be. :D