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View Full Version : Puppy Food vs Adult Raw Food



Linda
31st May 2006, 02:29 PM
As most of you know, I brought home my little love on Sunday the 28th of May.

I really really wanted to switch him to raw slowly over a week or so, my
Vet and Breeder did not agree at all. They felt as a 4 1/2 lb Puppy he
really required the calories in the Puppy food. The Vet asked me to wait until his next visit which is June 21st and she will talk to me more about it then.
I know it takes them a few days to settle, but the Guardian was
adding a lot of water to the Wysong (which I have taken him off and switched to Innova Puppy Food as per my Vet)
The food was more like a paste, my Vet said he should be able to eat kibble and if he was having trouble to sprinkle a little water just to moisten it.

My question is how long would you all wait before making the switch to
Natures Variety Raw based Kibble and Medallions.

Karlin
1st June 2006, 01:07 AM
Laura Lang does not believe in feeding raw to young puppies. You might send her a question directly but I think her recommendation is to wait until at least 6 months.

Also I would think very carefully about a raw diet. There ARE risks to both your dogs and to your family in feeding raw, and it also is not very convenient and requires a lot of special handling. If you are making your own then it also requires a good knowledge of nutrition, not just following someone's advice from the net (eg you need to read up on the whole area yourself )-- I would never, ever trust advice given by anyone who isn't a nurtitionist as it is very easy to leave dogs especially puppies short of needed nutritional requirements. There are too many 'experts' offering advice on raw diets.

I like the occasional raw treat -- eg some raw meaty bones -- but I just do not trust commercial uncooked meat as a regular diet unless it is coming from organic sources. The more I read and hear anecdotally the more I have moved away from feeding raw as one bad encounter with a bone is not worth the life of my dogs. Mine are in tip top form with a mix of commercial dry and a cooked diet and I saw with my own eyes how a raw chicken wing had NOt digested down one iota in over 8 hours in Jaspar's stomach and was in two sharp, dangerous whole pieces when he vomited it up many hours later -- just before I took him to the emergency vets. This theoretically is not possible according to those who believe a raw diet is safe and the bones are pulverised and digested down by the stomach acids. Very clearly they are NOT always. I will feed cut down pieces of wings but never whole wings and after Nicki posted the comments of her homeopath on bones I am considering cutting wings and most bones entirely and sticking to the occasional recreational marrow bone.

Feeding is a very personal choice but I can say, having fed raw for a while, that the dogs were not in any superior state when they were fed entirely raw NOR did the bones keep Leo's teeth clean as so many bone advocates also say. Brushing his teeth has made far more of a difference then a weekly diet of wings, chicken necks and marrow bones ever did.

So call me a raw skeptic. I am. ;) I think you can pay a heck of a lot for commercial raw diets when dogs do just as well or better on a good cooked diet or amix of cooked and dry or dry alone with some supplements.

As for puppy food -- most breeders whose advice I trust say not to feed puppy foods. I don't think this is a huge issue especially not up til 4-6 months but I'd feed adult food after 6 months. I would not put a 4.5lb puppy on a raw diet. Some breeders do put puppies on raw, but I think they do not have strong immune systems and we all know how many have very sensitive stomachs too, and thus I think it is taking a risk. This is entirely a personal opinion but the more I read, the less I trust some of what passes as informed opinion on raw diets, and the less inclined I am to feed any raw at all. icon_nwunsure I have totally changed direction from my previous perspective on this.

Linda
1st June 2006, 03:48 AM
Karlin

Firstly, I would like to Thank you for taking so much time to put all
the detail you do in your answers to posts. I really appreciate it.

The reason I was asking this question is because when I brought Dudley home from the same breeder that I got Darby from he was being fed
RAW. The reason my breeder switched was because of convience and also the fact that a lot of people don't care for RAW. I think she also found that her dogs enjoyed the food cooked much better. As far as I know she no longer feeds raw.


I know a lot of people have different opinions of Puppy Food, but I understand that he needs the calories in the Puppy Food and will keep him on it until at least 4 to 6 months.
Have you ever heard of Monica Segal her website is
www.monicasegal.com she prepares COOKED food with veggies and rice
I drove for over an hour each way tonight to pick some up for Dudley, I have been having a heck of a time getting this boy to eat.
I may consult with her in regards to Dudley but not Darby I do not see me having a problem with Darby.

Karlin, I would never ever make my own RAW FOOD I do not have the
knowledge required to feel comfortable that Dudley would be getting all
the nutrients he requires.
I have never fed Dudley a wing, I have only ever given him necks.
He is not even getting those lately as he is refusing to eat and trying to
manipulate me once again.

I do think that other than meaty bones and chicken necks Dudley does
not like RAW FOOD, otherwise I would not be having all these issues but
when I bought a premium quality kibble with no wheat he would not eat that either.

We will see if he eats Monica's food in the morning. I know that Nicki has her book.

Thank you so kindly Karlin

judy
1st June 2006, 07:50 AM
Linda--Monica Segal has an email list called K9kitchen, you join it by sending an email to k9kitchen@yahoogroups.com. If you're not already on this list, you might like to join. You may find it to be a good place to ask questions and hear about other peoples' experiences related to feeding and nutrition. I've been subscribed since the first month i had Zack but haven't read many threads, just too many other things to read and too little time, but there seems to be diverse opinion and lively friendly discussion there. Monica posts on the list and answers questions.

judy
1st June 2006, 07:56 AM
......I drove for over an hour each way tonight to pick some up for Dudley, I have been having a heck of a time getting this boy to eat....

I'm looking forward to hearing your report about what Dudley's verdict on the home cooked meal is.

I was curious when i read this, i was just dealing with this issue with zacky--have you let Dudley go without eating for several days when he chooses not to eat what you put in his dish? I'm curious how long he would go without eating, and whether you've tried that.

Alison_Leighfield
1st June 2006, 08:47 AM
Linda,

I fed my dogs a raw diet for many years. However over the past months I have, like Karlin, and for similar reasons stopped.

I now feed a good quality kibble along with some variation like cooked chicken, lamb, fish, & tinned tuna & sardines (all in spring water with NO salt or oil) and free range eggs normally scrambled, fruit and veg also.

They remain in equal condition as before and it saves me hours preparing their food.

Even when feeding a raw diet I never fed raw to a puppy under 6/8 months.

hope this helps,

Alison, Wilts, UK.

Linda
1st June 2006, 01:37 PM
......I drove for over an hour each way tonight to pick some up for Dudley, I have been having a heck of a time getting this boy to eat....

I'm looking forward to hearing your report about what Dudley's verdict on the home cooked meal is.

I was curious when i read this, i was just dealing with this issue with zacky--have you let Dudley go without eating for several days when he chooses not to eat what you put in his dish? I'm curious how long he would go without eating, and whether you've tried that.

Judy:

Nicki told be about the k9kitchen site and I did join.
I actually emailed Monica myself asking about her food and the possibility of a consultation for Dudley if he does not eat her food.
She also replied about Darby and totally agrees with everybody here that Darby needs Puppy Food, I will continue with the puppy food with him.

Dudley obviously has other plans and does not like RAW, so out that goes
with the exception of a raw neck occasionaly.

Judy
Dudley goes without eating all the time he has gone for 3 days and then my husband feels sorry for him and gives him something that is most likely why I am having such issues. If he would of just let him go he would of eaten, Dudley's father was also a extremely finicky eater not sure it that comes down in the genes or not.

Anyway the verdict of Monica's food is.

YIPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, he ate it I gave him the chicken now I will
try again at dinner time and see what he does and let you know.

But I am just so happy that he ate, he had to be hungry as he has not eaten for over 2 days. It looks good enough for me to eat. :yikes :yikes :yikes :mexwav:




Allison

I thank you too for your response, I also know that you are another very very knowledgeable gal when it comes to Food & Health.

I keep thinking in my mind, why am I giving Dudley this food if he does
not like it as I remember as a child at camp in Scotland I had to do without going to the candy store because I would not eat my food. I did not like it or else I would of eaten it so the same goes for my babies.

When you make the eggs are you scrambling them alone or adding veggies I would love to hear more about it I bet he would devour those.

I really appreciate the feedback, and will keep you posted on dinner tonight. I bought quite a bit of her food, Meatloaf which is beef chunks with rice and veggies also the liver and fish.

So I will try offering a two different varitiey's over the next few days and
hope my problems are over.
I think I may of gotten my message across to my hubby too finally. :wggle:

Jen
1st June 2006, 03:54 PM
This is an interesting story run by one of our local news stations:

http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_151091209.html

My thing with raw is that yes, it may be what dogs do in the wild, but they have longgggg since been domesticated and with that comes major changes to their systems--internally, behaviorally, etc. etc. I think there's more to it than a lot of people realize, and that few people really know what they're doing when feeding raw. Good for you Linda for asking questions and trying to educate yourself to make the right decision.

Alison_Leighfield
1st June 2006, 05:53 PM
Hi Linda,

If I give eggs for breakfast then I ususlly give them on thier own with a little kibble, but if I give as dinner then I will add veg as well.

Whenever I cook veg (no salt) for the family I keep some back in the fridge for the girls next day, the same if I cook meat/fish etc. that way I always find that I have good food for them pre-cooked and ready.

My hubby laughs when he opens the fridge as the "third shelf down" is ONLY for the girls!

They also love banana, apple, green beans, carrots. natural yogurt, just about everything but always try to keep a watch for the contents like fats, salts etc. Use lean meat and good quality fresh veg.

Alison, Wilts, UK.

Linda
1st June 2006, 09:02 PM
Hi Linda,

If I give eggs for breakfast then I ususlly give them on thier own with a little kibble, but if I give as dinner then I will add veg as well.

Whenever I cook veg (no salt) for the family I keep some back in the fridge for the girls next day, the same if I cook meat/fish etc. that way I always find that I have good food for them pre-cooked and ready.

My hubby laughs when he opens the fridge as the "third shelf down" is ONLY for the girls!

They also love banana, apple, green beans, carrots. natural yogurt, just about everything but always try to keep a watch for the contents like fats, salts etc. Use lean meat and good quality fresh veg.

Alison, Wilts, UK.

Jen
Interesting Article, so many different views and opinions and everyone
is entitled to one. I just know for me it is not working out and Dudley
is not liking it, so I am hoping he will do okay on Monica's food for a while.

Allison
Thank you, Dudley loves peas, bananas, cantaloupe and apple if it is cut small he also enjoys carrots but only cooked.

I will also try the natural yogurt, how often and how much do you give.
Sorry for all the questions if I don't ask I won't learn. :D :D :D :D

I will try giving him some eggs on the wkd and see what he does.
My husband will be in his glory. icon_whistling icon_whistling icon_whistling

Alison_Leighfield
1st June 2006, 11:06 PM
Linda,

Start with a small tea spoon full and see if he likes it, and like any new food start slowly and gradually watching for any possible upsets as you go and remember to try and introduce only one new food at a time, a bit like a baby really.

I give mine Natural Organic Bio Yogurt with "all the good bacteria for healthy tums and digestive systems" a tablespoon twice a week on top of a little mashed banana, it's my breakfast and theirs also!

Rice and pasta are enjoyed by mine as well.

Remember not to give cakes and biscuits!!! and all the naughty things!!!

Alison, Wilts, UK.

Karlin
2nd June 2006, 12:41 AM
Even when feeding a raw diet I never fed raw to a puppy under 6/8 months.


That's interesting Alison; I think I'd feel I'd want time for their dogestive systems to mature too. I don't think Laura Lang says this on her site but I know she has posted before about not feeding til about that age as well. I generally like Laura's approach to feeding which is very unfussy.

Linda I was more rambling on generally :lol: as I typically do without meaning to imply I assumed anything about your approach. Just random thoughts. If m,edlaiions etc were available here In Ireland I'd likely consider that approach to raw. But I never saw much difference in what was being fed and I know my cats are in fantastic coat condition etc on their Royal Canin diet with a little supplemet of commercial tinned food and some cooked chicken etc as treats. The dogs also look in great condition.

Linda there are some good cooked diets that would probably be very close to Monica's in the Caring for your cavalier section of the Library. Mine absolutely LOVE any kind of chicken and rice and veggie stew. This offers an excellent and varied range of nutrients.

I'd like to learn a bit more on supplements.

I have a link elsewhere to Monica's website and her page on a cavalier menu from the episodic falling website. :)

I too feel there are many opinions and many approaches -- some just take a lot more effort and really require some extra nutritional knowledge. Over time I have grown more wary of raw diets for many reasons. I am not sure there is more than an affect of people seeing what they want to see with such diets. Whereas I have heard of many documented cases of dogs dying or having serious emergencies from bones puncturing their intestines from raw diets. So the occasional chicken necks and marrow bones are what I currently feel most comfortable with, or wings cut into three segments.

I like people to consider a range of choices, recognised what is involved with each, and not feel pressured into a particular track of feeding especially if it isn't a track that really suits them. :thmbsup:

Linda
2nd June 2006, 03:58 AM
Yipeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :w**h**: :w**h**: :w**h**:


He ate Monica Segal's food again, twice in one day.
That is brilliant for Dudley.

Karlin:

Once I get a chance I will have a look in the library and cook something up. It is also the supplements that I know nothing about, I will have to try an find sometime to do some reading.
Of course Nicki always offers me a helping hand too, Karlin I just cannot
see any sense in me continuing to feed RAW even the medallions if he
does not like them. I have so much food, when I go to the Animal Shelter they will most likely think I am selling it, I have never ever given Dudley
a Chicken Wing, only necks.

I am just so happy that he is eating.
He likes it, I like it. Perfecto. :wggle:

I really do appreciate and value your input.
You are one huge encycopedia. :hug:

Alison_Leighfield
2nd June 2006, 08:20 AM
Hi Linda,

That is something I forgot, (Thanks Karlin!) dogs cannot store some vitamins in their bodys so a multi vitamin suppliment is worth thinking about. You should be able to find "Pet-Tabs" easily, I'm sure your vet will advise you. These and other good brands are found in pet stores etc or through your vet.

Another reason to feed a good quality kibble in with some of your home made food is because these are included in the product.

Have fun cooking!

Alison, Wilts, UK.

Linda
2nd June 2006, 02:01 PM
Allison, I will check with the Vet when I go back on June 21st for Darby.


Dudley ate the food that is 3 meals, I am totally shocked.
:yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes
He has never ever done that.

I am going to start adding a bit of kibble to it now though until I can
talk to the Vet.

Thank you so much. I am going to go into the library.

Did I mention lately how much I love this board. :flwr: :flwr: :flwr: :flwr: :flwr: :flwr: :flwr: :flwr: :flwr: :flwr:

Alison_Leighfield
2nd June 2006, 04:25 PM
Linda,

Well done you and well done Dudley! :thmbsup:

Excellent results!

Alison, Wilts, UK.

judy
2nd June 2006, 04:57 PM
....Dudley ate the food that is 3 meals, I am totally shocked.
:yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes
He has never ever done that....

that is such great news!! and so useful to hear about the success of working with Monica.

by the way, what are medallians?

Linda
2nd June 2006, 05:03 PM
....Dudley ate the food that is 3 meals, I am totally shocked.
:yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes :yikes
He has never ever done that....

that is such great news!! and so useful to hear about the success of working with Monica.

by the way, what are medallians?

Judy
Medallions are small tiny hamburger patties that are about 1 oz per medallions which are made by Natures Variety Raw Food, I had been
trying for so long to feed Dudley RAW, but no more.

I have finally found the food he likes, thanks to my wonderful friend
Nicki.
Nicki I love you so much, you are such a doll.


Allison:

Can I also give Darby some yogurt, just came back from the store
I bought some Organic Natural plain Yogurt. ???????????????