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Jen114
21st June 2006, 09:27 PM
Okay..... as those who know me know... that my mom has just bought a puppy and so has my sister in law... they are both from different litters.... Mom takes care of kayla everyday and by the way i am seeing a little progress there.....

What we are very worried about is ABBY mom's Dog..... grows and bites the other puppy....but it does not look at all friendly and she actually hurts the other puppy and makes her yelp.... What do you do? she stalks her and then runs and jumps on her and bites her... Molly is now obviously frightened of ABBY

What do you do in this situation...???????????? :yikes :yikes :yikes

Karlin
21st June 2006, 10:00 PM
That's a difficult situation. It is generally not a good idea to let dogs freely mix when they are just getting to know one another, especially if they are of different sizes, or if one is a puppy. It may be especially stressful to Abby to have a new competitor (actually now two) and you will have to control and monitor all their interactions. Also you need to perhaps have a behaviouralist come watch their interactions and tell you if this is indeed problem behaviour or just seems to be.

In general a puppy should never be left alone or unwatched around an adult dog anyway. Not all adults like all puppies. Amd not all adults understand how to play gently with a puppy, as the "warning" thread in this section notes. Tara's advice there holds here as well. Tara is a trained and certified behaviouralist.


I know that I sound like a broken record but I have to say this again... body language.

The ability to read a dogs body language is KEY. While owners are not watching there is a whole load of communication going on between dogs in close proximity. If we have them on leads we prevent them from moving away from each other and we can easily cause a conflict.

What owners tend to do wrong is correct their dog for growling at another dog. Growling is a normal behaviour it is asking another dog to back off.

If growling is continuously corrected the dog will stop using it. The next time a dog is in contact with another dog and they would like that other dog to back off, they are now muted so the growl will be skipped and they will go straight to the next level which is usually bearing teeth and quickly biting.

Many people believe that a dog lying on it's back and exposing its belly means it is submissive. This is NOT always the case. If a dog is lying on it's back, exposing it's belly with it's tail curled in it is still protecting itself and it is best to take the dog out of that situation.

Watch EARS, EYES, MOUTH, TAIL POSITION AND CARRAIGE. If you don't understand a dogs body language simply don't take the chance. Remove it from the situation.

Book recommendation:http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB856 Canine Body Language, A Photographic Guide by Brenda Aloff.

Basically you are going to have to control all interactions, never leave them alone together, maybe keep Abby on a lead at all times around the puppy til their relationship settles and do some work to help develop their relationship. Getting professional advice would be wise given that you don;t want to put the puppy at risk. As the puppy gets alrger and older you will need to worry less probaboly, but you have a particularly young and small puppy.

Karlin
21st June 2006, 10:09 PM
PS There is plenty of info and advice out on the web too if you google introduing a puppy to a dog, or adding a puppy, or similar.

I should also add that it is not generally a good idea to have two unspayed females together in one household -- this may be the issue if Abby isn't spayed; I don't really know anything about her though.

Some links:

http://www.phsspca.org/training/puppy_intro_to_adult_dog.htm
http://www.phsspca.org/training/dogs_friction.htm
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pets_introducingdog
http://www.amrottclub.org/dog2.htm

From one article:


Female dogs and male dogs each have their own roles in the pack, and usually can get along with each other in the home without injury. But if it you have any doubts, ask your veterinarian to recommend a behavior specialist who can observe the dogs in person.

Do be careful about things like food, extra-special toys, treats, and other things that could create excessive competition between them. Here are ideas that help when managing multiple dogs in the home:

Spay/neuter both of them.
Work with your veterinarian to be fully aware of the medical issues affecting each dog. For example, a dog with hip dysplasia, a damaged knee ligament, deafness, or blindness will react differently to other dogs. A seizure disorder could make one dog the target of another, or could cause the dog in the seizure to become aggressive. Some medical disorders will call for separating the dogs at least part of the time.
Give no food of any kind to them without enforcing complete separation until both are finished eating. Any toys they would fight over need to be removed, and given only when they are apart. Same for chew items.
Obedience training. You need to be able to control EACH dog without your hands or a leash, just your voice. Then you have a chance of controlling both when they are together. You do not want to be sticking your hands between two sets of flashing dog teeth.
Take each dog away from the house daily for training time away from the other dog. This strengthens your individual control over each dog incredibly.
Comb out or in some other way thoroughly groom each dog daily. This makes it a lot safer to put your hands on them when they are aroused, plus it powerfully strengthens both their individual attachments to you and their obedience to you.
Have them do a 2-minute Sit-Stay and a 4-minute Down-Stay about 4 feet apart, every day.
As long as you have concerns they might fight, separate them when you are not able to supervise them.
When you arrive home, immediately let them out to run together. A fenced back yard is a huge help with this. They will argue a lot less if they can solve some of their relationship issues through running together. This is particularly important when returning with one of them who has been out with you. If they are cooped up in a small space when feeling this way, fighting is more likely.
Be careful about when and how you intervene. An owner interrupting the interaction between two dogs at the wrong time can actually trigger fighting. Dogs are also capable of fighting to get your attention.

Jen114
21st June 2006, 10:42 PM
Thank you very much for your quick reply..... very interesting and informative information!!!!!!!

Abby is also a puppy she is 7 weeks old........... Abby is the one growling and biting hard and jumping on the other puppy who is named Molly and she is 8weeks old..... Kayla is 14ths old but is now avoiding Abby completly does not want anything to do with her..... when abby gets ahold of kayla she growls and jumps on her ear and does not let go.....

Maybe this will help with the advice :D

thanks again!!!! xxxxxxx :flwr:

Maxxs_Mummy
22nd June 2006, 12:14 AM
What sort of dog is Abby? Is it possible that she is playing? Sometimes, even when they play they can get quite rough. Charlie and Maxx love each other really but Charlie jumps on Maxx and pulls his ears until he squeals :( :roll:

I have been making the low pitched buhhhhhhhhhhhh sound whenever he does it and he is doing it less and less.

Apparently, it is the best noise you can make as it sounds like the warning that the mother dog gives to her pups.

If Abby is a bigger breed, it's quite possible that she doesn't mean to hurt Molly and tbh at 7 weeks I would be really surprised if she did. I wouldn't have thought she'd have any malice in her at that age.

Don't forget that like babies, pups want to put everything in their mouths. It's how they learn about different textures etc. If you are really worried though, maybe ask your vet to give you the number for a good behaviouralist in your area.

WoodHaven
22nd June 2006, 12:34 AM
Thank you very much for your quick reply..... very interesting and informative information!!!!!!!

Abby is also a puppy she is 7 weeks old........... Abby is the one growling and biting hard and jumping on the other puppy who is named Molly and she is 8weeks old..... Kayla is 14ths old but is now avoiding Abby completly does not want anything to do with her..... when abby gets ahold of kayla she growls and jumps on her ear and does not let go.....

Maybe this will help with the advice :D

thanks again!!!! xxxxxxx :flwr:

Yikes, it sounds like Abby hasn't learned "dog manners" yet. This is one reason I don't home pups before 12 weeks. Every pup here understands that the older dogs rule them and I rule all the dogs. This may sound odd in human terms- but it is the only way my dogs could live together in harmony. Sandy

judy
22nd June 2006, 04:12 AM
jen--does abby ever act friendly or affectionate to kayla or molly, or is she only doing the growling behavior toward them? i was surprised that the breeder was so impatient that abby leave at such a tender age, your mom said the breeder wanted her out immediately. makes me wonder if abby had a lack of nurturing or socialization in her early weeks. i agree with the suggestions of a professional assessment. Then you can get advice from someone who sees the situation in person and who has experience and expertise in giving advice to owners on how to manage situations.

Jen114
22nd June 2006, 07:31 AM
Yes,,,, unfortunatly mom only got Abby at the tender age of 6.5 weeks obviously to young to be homed. The situation was the person who just happend to have pups ( i would not call her a breeder as first ever litter) wanted to get rid of the pup immediatly..... Mom has been waiting patently for a litter.... My sister and mom wanted to get pups at the same time and have been waiting patiently for a very long time now.... 2 litters have come and gone.... the 1st litter was a very sad story... the mother had difficulties and only one of the pups surivived and this is were we (my sister) bought Molly... she is a tri bitch she was 7.5 weeks when she was homed. There is only one breeder in Malta and that is the age she gives them to people.... right or wrong i not sure but in Malta this is the way they do it........... In the mean time there was another litter 5 Males 3 B&T and 2 Blen.... we did not think it would be smart to get a male once we have 2 females already... Mind you they all live in seperate houses but we are a very close family and are together most of the time so it is like we all have 3 dogs then they just sleep in their different houses.......

and kayla is 14 months old and is the quietest dog i have every seen.... even when ABBY has Kayla by the ear and is biting down on her poor ear and does not let go,,, she does nothing ..... she runs up and down with ABBY holding on tight not letting go..... Kayla would not bite or do anythign to ABBY ( i wish she would to teach her it is wrong)


OK sooo yesterday mom was taking care of ABBY(tri) (hers) MOLLY(tri) (siss) Kayla(mine)........ and ABBY STARTED.............

Stalking molly ....... jumping on her .... biting her untill Molly Yelps..... Growling at her ... then running agiain whilst still growling and biting down on her.... My dad was actually scared and seperataed them i thought they might be playing but she did not seem to friendly towards MOLLY.....

Now what do we do

seperate them?
Let them go at it and sort it out between them?


We really want all of the to get along and be friends ........ i am sure they will in the future... well i really hope so

Thats the whole story now.....

Gillian
22nd June 2006, 08:00 AM
Hi this is Gillian mummy to Abby. I thought I would join conversation to help with advice. When the pups get tired they actually settle and get into same bed.
Should I be smacking Abby when she does it. ?????
Or should I wait and see if it gets too much????
As sometimes Abby seems to get really Hyper and pounces , growling and biting poor little Molly . Molly is just a little smaller in size and since she did not have any brothers and sisters she is not used to puppy play either.
Abby on the other hand had four brothers and a sister.
So any advice PLEASE!!!

judy
22nd June 2006, 09:08 AM
i sure don't know the answer. that's why asking a behaviorist seems like a good idea.

It's hard from your story, without seeing the dogs, to know whether it's just playfulness on Abby's part, or viciousness. I know that puppies play very rough together, but when Zack and Belle were doing it, it was clear that they were both having a great time, and were happy--but they were really rough, and there was the occasional yelp by Zack, who is smaller.

But Zack does the exact same behavior with my cat and the cat hates it, i'm talking about lunging at the cat, kind of crashing into her, bonking her in the face with his nose--Belle loved it, Fluffy hates it, and so, when he did it with belle, it looked like fun and games but when he does it with Fluffy, it looks like he's being obnoxious and inappropriately rough and violent, even mean, or at least insensitive.

So from your story, it seems possible that Abby is just being a normal puppy, playing in that play fighting way they do, but is not able to find a partner who wants to do that with her, so it looks like she's being mean but if she was with another puppy who liked to play fight, it woud look like she's just being playful. In play fighting they growl and chase each other, knock each other down, and bite, sometimes hard. Biting seems to be their favorite part.

I can sure appreciate your feelings of needing to do something to intervene, seeing the gentle Kayla being abused, and Molly being frightened. I had to intervene when Zack was harrassing Fluffy too. I used to scold him, tell him sharply to stop, I used the sound "Nhahhh" that i read about in a book called Puppy Preschool by John Ross, which is supposed to sound like the mother dog's growl when she teaches puppies about limits and behavior, and Zack would always respond immediately to the growl and stop charging at Fluffy, but then, he'd start right back up again later--it's like he was so overwhelmed by his feelings of wanting another animal to play with him. Usually when i would use "nhaa" for any behavior redirection, he would stop and that was it, he would accept the limit. He wouldn't repeat the behavior again. he's pretty compliant and cooperative. but the thing with Fluffy was an exception.

Ross says if "Nhaah" doesn't work, the owner should do what he says mother dogs do, which is to escalate her expression of disapproval, by shaking the puppy by the back of his neck. I tried that a little bit, but i'm really inhibited to do that because of concerns about the potential for SM and not wanting to cause any trauma around the neck and head.

The next level of escalation of mother dog limit setting Ross recommends is actually biting the puppy on his muzzle, which i couldn't imagine doing, but then, i got so desperate and frustrated with not being able to get him to stop jumping on Fluffy, fearing Fluffy might one day scratch one of his eyes out, feeling bad about having to keep Fluffy locked upstairs all the time, i just finally got up from my chair and got over him on the floor, the way a big dog would do, and i put my mouth over his muzzle and bit down! i felt weird doing it, but he appeared to take it very seriously, i didn't bite hard, he didn't yelp or anything, but he did react, and since that day, a couple months ago, he is very different with Fluffy. He still is very obsessed with her and excited by her, and still wants to play with her in his dog way that doesn't work for her (she's 13 years old in addition to being a cat), but his behavior is so much less extreme. He stops himself before making contact with her usually, like he'll run at her and then stop rather than jumping on her, and he is just generally gentler and calmer than he was before, and she noticed the change and has become more at ease around him. It was a sudden change, not a gradual one. Pretty interesting.

another thing you could try would be clicker training, maybe. Like, use a clicker to get her to stop the behavior and then give her a reward when she stops, like a treat or just hugs and praise. If she crosses the line with one of the other dogs where they appear really distressed but are not able or willing to protect themselves, use the clicker so she stops and then praise and reward her. i didn't know about clickers when i was at my wit's end about zack and fluffy. they are surprisingly effective at getting a dog's attention.

Claire
22nd June 2006, 10:04 AM
Woody was just the same with Ozzy - jumping on him, growling, grabbing his ear but it just got better, we made a clapping noise with our hands and said no that seems to work most of the time if it started looking rough.

I did watch Doggy Borstel where they had a plastic bottle filled with stone and made a noise with a sharp NO when they were doing something wrong - not sure if they are to young to use this with.....

Gillian
22nd June 2006, 10:52 AM
:sl*p: Thanks a lot for all the advice it is very helpful I will try them all out and let you know how it worked.
Kayla and Abby seem to be getting along much better today.
Thanks again. :xfngr:

Karlin
22nd June 2006, 12:46 PM
Ok now I get a better picture (for those of us who don;t know the dogs, it helps to explain which each one is and age for a post like this! :)).

I am totally changing my suggestions in light of these clarifications as to who is who in this scenario. Please ALLOW Abby to do this with Kayla. It is fine that Kayla is growling (as Tara's advice notes) and even if she yelps midly snaps at Abby that is OK -- do not intervene unless this turns into a serious scuffle. Kayla is doing a very very valuable service of teaching Abby some manners. And yes this is exactly why puppies should never be homed before about 8 weeks or older, even that extra week makes a serious difference to their socialising with mum and siblings (I know you had special circumstances, thisd is a general point, but it is a real shame the people wouldn't keep the puppies at least another week and they certainly should not be breeding with such a terrible attitude towards the pups' well being).

I would try to get Abby (both pups actually) around friendly adult dogs as much as possible as the adults will help teach her more self control.

The pouncing etc is normal puppy play, so is biting ears. Most adults are actually very tolerant of this kind of thing but will let the puppy know when she has gone too far and dsiciplien with a yelp, a growl, even a small nip. Or Kayla will get up and leave Abby. That is fine -- that is exactly how a n adult disciplines; one aspect is they will walk away leaving the puppy with no one to play with and this is just the right mix of things for an adult to do. Likewise let the two puppies sort things out amongst themselves. They are testing their teeth and behaviours and they help teach each other what is too rough and what is acceptable. Just leave them to it unless one puppy is seriously having problems. As with kids they need to try out acceptable behaviour and learn that when you are too rough, no one will play with you. You cannot teach them that by separating them.

If you intervene you are potentially causing much frustration for Kayla and the puppy will not learn any boundaries to her behaviour.

I had thought Abby was another adult dog. If an adult is plaguing a puppy that is a very different matter.

Gillian: please, you should never need to smack a dog and especially a puppy, for discipline. Then you will end up with a dog that is fearful of you and of raised hands and setting up many potential behaviour problems. If you need to punish a dog for misbehaviour caught at the time, a single firm 'no' and then isolation for 5-10 minutes -- eg a time out by itself in a room (NOT a crate, you don;t ever want bad associations with a crate) -- is far more effective. Most dogs hate to be separated from you more than anything else.

Also Judy: this sruff shake and -- eek, biting!!! -- is based on very old theories of training. A human is not an adult dog nor its mother and a dog knows you are not a dog hence duplicating dog behaviour -- which I would argue is very misinterpreted dog behaviour anyway -- can only be terrifying for a dog or especially a puppy. The loud 'ahhh' or 'no is a good method as it startles but isn;t designed to scare or harm. We are capaable of seriously harming a dog by shaking it by the neck or biting. I just really hate these very old fashioned, punishment based approaches which have I think been soldily discredited by two decades of research in this area (see article below).

Jen and Gillian, everything you are saying indicates this is normal behaviour so I'd just let them all mix and indeed encourage it as any mixing with adults is going to help make up for a too-early removal from the mother. If you are feeling nervous I'd really suggest getting in a good behaviouralist and try to get some good books (and read widely on the web) about bringing up puppies especially with an older dog. There's lots of guidance out there that will give more confidence in how to deal with these situations.

Karlin
22nd June 2006, 01:19 PM
EXCELLENT article by the much revered trainer/behaviour expert Ian Dunbar explaining what I am trying to say above:


Why Can't a Dog Be More Like a Dog?

The wicked witch of Wycombe paused to howl at the full moon before ripping another mouthful of flesh from the freshly killed rabbit. Lycanthropy: The temporary transformation of witch into wolf? Or perhaps, a form of madness, wherein the patient imagines himself as a wolf and develops a growly voice and a depraved appetite for raw red meat. Unbelievable? A person becoming canine? Not necessarily. Many dog owners do the opposite and habitually imagine domestic dogs to be people, whereas many trainers imagine domestic dogs to be wolves. In fact, some trainers go the whole lycanthropic hog and imagine themselves as wolves inflicting wolfy-punishments to convince their doggy charges tow the line.

Anthropomorphic Owners

Consider Moose The Magnificent (name changed to protect the innocent): The Mastiff puppy dog was just sooooo cute and cocked his head just like he was listening to every word that was said to him. The kids talked to him endlessly and told him numerous little stories about Mowgli in the jungle and green Italian ersatz turtles which thrived on pizza. Jane discussed more practical issues, such as household manners. She told Moose where she wanted him to eliminate, where she didn't want him to eliminate, what she wanted him to chew and what she didn't want him to chew. Even John would sit down and have lengthy discussions with Moose about soccer, tying flies, engine capacity, the finer aspects of aeronautical navigation and other male-bonding topics. John also informed Moose, he required absolute obedience at all times; he wanted Moose to always come when called, to sit instantaneously (with panache) and to remain obediently in down stays for the duration. Certainly, Moose listened to everything his owners said. Unfortunately, he barely understood a single word. Moose's owners were being anthropomorphic - attributing human characteristics to the dog. Family Moose viewed their pup as a person in a furry suit.

Now, before I am accused of being a killjoy, I hasten to add, not all anthropomorphism is bad. In fact, it is often fun to chat to a dog, asking it questions, sharing secrets, telling it about your day. I mean who else is going to listen to what you have to say? When ever I return from a trip, I always have quite lengthy conversations with my malamute Phoenix about the decline of the human condition and airline meals, about crushed baggage and imploding petrol tanks on Alamo rentals. It's good to vent a few grievances and get things of your chest, but we also discuss other topics such as, the pros and cons of the pillory and pilliwinks for decimating delinquency in Medieval Europe and of course her favorite, should she get one welcome home cookie, or two? Well, no one else greets me at the front door in the early hours of the morning. But then I digress.

But... she does seem to hang on every single word and I feel certain, dogs also benefit greatly from the closeness and attention of human conversation and that they no doubt glean a lot of what is going on from context, body language and the tone of our voices. However, the dog will only precisely understand the meaning of words it has been taught, or learned by itself - words like 'walkies', 'dinner' and 'on the couch' and all the rest will be naught but Larsonian "Blah blah blah".

On occasions though, anthropomorphism backfires, causing both owner and dog to suffer unnecessarily. Even though people normally attribute good human qualities to their dogs, especially the powers of human understanding and reasoning, problems tend to occur when people assume dogs understand more than they do. Often, we expect more from dogs than they are able to give. We expect dogs to read our minds and understand household rules and regulations without us necessarily explaining them all that well. And we become annoyed when the poor dog breaks rules it did not even know existed. It is vital to explain rules in a manner the dog can understand. This means we must teach the dog the meaning of each word we use; we must teach it our language. This process is called training.

Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, when the dog-owner relationship starts to go awry, the owner's anthropomorphism tends to assume a nasty negative hue and now bad human characteristics are attributed to dogs, in fact particularly pernicious human characteristics. Dogs are frequently accused of being spiteful, vindictive and vicious. Rather than even considering our 'poor learner' might actually have a poor trainer who never effectively taught the dog what was expected, most owners insist the dog misbehaved on purpose. In fact, Jane thought Moose urinated in the house because he was jealous of her time spent with another dog, so Moose was confined to the kitchen, whereupon he exacted his revenge and chewed the kitchen chair legs So Moose was isolated to the great outdoors, where he vindictively ctively dug up her flowers and barked out of spite.

Assuming dogs have an human appetite for spite and revenge is a convenient excuse for the dog's obvious lack of elementary education. A flagrant advertisement that the owner neglected to teach the dog where to eliminate, what to chew, where to dig, when and for how long to bark, and when and upon whom to jump-up. It is conveniently simpler to blame the dog than train it. Personally I would never insult a dog by even suggesting it has fallen foul of these especially execrable and exclusively human foibles - spite, revenge and viciousness. Whoa! So, a lot of you disagree. But of course we disagree - this is a moot point: None of us will ever know for certain what a dog is thinking, what are its motives, or why it does what it does. What we do know however, is what the dog did. And if for example the dog soiled the house, let's just housetrain the dog and then the owner will no longer be annoyed, the dog will no longer be punished but instead, it can be happily reintegrated into household living and therefore, will no longer be chewing, digging and barking whilst in solitary confinement in the garden. (Or, if you prefer your interpretation, the dog will no longer have any reason to exact revenge.) And once owner and newly-housetrained dog are living in harmony, then, and only then, would it be profitable to engage in moot debate of the differential etiology of housesoiling. Even so, it is still unlikely we'll reach agreement. Luckily though, this is not important because few owners are interested in the etiology of problems which no longer exist.

Lukomorphic Trainers

Moose was becoming a bit of a pain following his headlong collision with adolescence. He would no longer willingly go outside for hours of solitary confinement. John thought Moose was being stubborn and so off they went to training classes. Jane was happy to go along as well because she thought some manners would help control Moose and stop him from rambunctiously jumping-up and mouthing her whenever she would visit him in the yard. The trainer said Moose was a dominant aggressive dog, as evidenced by his urine marking in the house, his refusal to obey commands and his dominant paws-on posturing and mouthing. John and Jane were instructed how to reassume leadership via dominance-downs, stare-downs, scruff shakes, alpha-rollovers and hold-downs. Moose got fed up with the constant manhandling and physical abuse and eventually, both his tolerance and jaws snapped. And we can all write the rest of the story.

How on earth did this folly happen? Presumably, the lukomorphic reasoning assumes:

Dogs are descended from wolves and should therefore be treated like wolves.
Wolves are pack animals which have a linear dominance hierarchy with a pack leader (or alpha male) which calls all the shots, maintaining control via physical dominance - Ha! I'd like to see you explain that one to my butch malamute bitch.
To learn its place, our best friend the domestic dog should similarly be physically dominated in a wolf-like manner, presumably because the 'naturalness' of wolfy-punishments makes it easier for the dog to comprehend.
When carried to this extreme, lukomorphic tendencies have bizarrely erupted into full-blown Lycanthropy - whereby trainers assume ersatz wolfiness to punish puppy dogs in wolf-like fashion by stares, scruff-shakes and alpha-rollovers - transformation of trainer into wolf. Or perhaps, a form of madness? Do these people eat raw rabbit? Before long trainers will be growling, jaw-wrestling, scruff-biting and urine-marking trees in a quest for the natural reprimand.

Oh No! No! Nonononononono NO! NO!! NOOO!!! This is the Disney version. It is so simplistic it makes my twelve-year-old rescue dog laugh. Heavens! It makes chew toys chuckle. Now certainly... dogs are descended from wolves, but their behavior has numerous differences, especially in terms of interaction with people. Consequently, to extrapolate from a ludicrously simplified version of wolf-wolf interaction to dog-dog interaction is quite unfounded, but to further extrapolate from wolf-wolf interaction to dog-human interaction is just plain silliness.

Like wolves, domestic dogs are social animals (and hence should not be socially isolated) and they have an hierarchical social system. However, the hierarchy is neither created by, nor necessarily maintained by physical domination, nor is it strictly linear. If anything, the hierarchy is created and enforced by psychological control, and the peace of the pack is maintained by active appeasement rituals of lower ranking individuals. In fact, the famous Cambridge and Berkeley zoologist, Dr. Thelma Rowell has suggested that the status quo of social groups is better termed a subordinance hierarchy - a much more precise and descriptive term.

Yes, most groups of male dogs generally have a surprisingly stable linear hierarchy, but females tend to show significant day-to-day variation and male-female interactions can be extremely unpredictable, with rank-reversals being the norm rather than the exception. Indeed, bitches have virtually rewritten canine hierarchical law with the First Bitch Amendment which states, I have it and you don't. Moreover, individual members of a domestic dog pack have special friendships, alliances and bodyguards. And truly confident top dogs are more than willing to share and even allow underdogs and buddies prime access to bones and favored sleeping places. To say one alpha male rules the roost is an oversimplification to the point of ridicule. In fact, in most domestic canine social groups it is not a single male, but rather a group of females which decide what's what.

Like wolves, dogs do need a leader - but not a dictator who physical dominates, frightens and hurts. And certainly not a human fool who tries to imitate wolves. To allow myself a soup can of anthropomorphic license, most dogs are probably howling with laughter at the pathetic wolf-impersonations by their owners. (Perhaps that's why dogs howl?) It would indeed be laughable, if the consequences were not so sad and serious. Yes, dogs must be taught to show compliance to all family members, but to suggest novice owners physically manhandle and frighten their dogs is both inane and inhumane. And how exactly are children meant to gain respect from the dog? By physically pushing and pulling it around? The very thought is as potentially dangerous as it is stupid. For goodness sake, let's wake up and smell the coffee! Or, wake up and smell the urine, if you're still bordering on virtual Lycanthropy

Cynomorphic Commonsense

Dogs need a leader who will first teach and then, enforce the domestic rules. Perhaps 'educator' is a better term. Dogs are dogs; they are neither human nor lupine, so why don't we just treat them like dogs - to try to understand and respect their doggy ways at the same time as teaching them to understand and respect ours. Furthermore, we are human; we are neither lupine or canine, so why don't we act like the intelligent folk we are meant to be and teach dogs what is expected? If we want dogs to like people, let's socialize them. If we want dogs to have soft mouths, let's teach bite inhibition. If we don't want dogs to mouth or jump up, let's teach "Off" and "Sit". And if we want dogs to adhere to house rules, let's teach them.

Ian Dunbar Ph.D., BVetMed, MRCVS
copyright 1992 Ian Dunbar



http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/whycant.htm

And also:


World renowned ethologist and writer, Dr. Erich Klinghammer, Ph.D., director of Wolf Park, Indiana and President of North American Wildlife Federation, opines that:

"... the so-called alpha roll, over practiced by some, is nonsense. The context in which people do it with dogs does not coincide with the situation in which a wolf actively submits to a high-ranking wolf. We certainly do not use it with our hand-raised wolves. There is no way we can administer the intensity of a dominance attack on a wolf that they use with each other on very rare occasions. Establishing dominance is usually a drawn out series of encounters that eventually convinces a wolf to submit and run way a preferred strategy. If I were to go up to a hand-raised wolf that did not know me and attempt to dominate it physically, it would either run away or I would have one helluva fight on my hands - if the wolf could not get away. There is really a big difference between wolves and dogs. To simply extrapolate from wolves to dogs is at best problematical."

Jen
22nd June 2006, 02:45 PM
Hi this is Gillian mummy to Abby. I thought I would join conversation to help with advice. When the pups get tired they actually settle and get into same bed.
Should I be smacking Abby when she does it. ?????
Or should I wait and see if it gets too much????
As sometimes Abby seems to get really Hyper and pounces , growling and biting poor little Molly . Molly is just a little smaller in size and since she did not have any brothers and sisters she is not used to puppy play either.
Abby on the other hand had four brothers and a sister.
So any advice PLEASE!!!

NEVER "smack" your dog, this is only reinforcing that your hands are not a source that they want to be associated with--not good when you want them to come.
It sounds like normal puppy behavior to me considering the circumstances--she was taken too young and didn't learn boundaries from her mother. I would suggest letting them be around one another for short periods of time with lots of distractions--toys, etc. so that they are occupied and associating "fun" with being around one another. Then seperate them for a break (just as you would small children) and then start the process all over again--small session, with lots of toys to distract them. Once she's had all her shots, introduce her to adult dogs, they will for sure teach her some manners.
We're actually in the same situation with our new Min. Schnauzer pup, Gus. He was taken at 7 weeks from his mom (rescue situation) and was pretty rough in his play style with Abbey (4 yr old Cav). Our trainer suggested the small play sessions, and after a week or so he wasn't so over bearing with Abbey. She puts him in his place when he does get to be too much. She's so patient though, she usually just walks away, but he's typically still attached to her ear--we call him her 8-pound earring! If he doesn't get that she's trying to ignore him, she'll snap at him w/out biting him. If he still doesn't get it, she'll pin him and bite his neck. Then he sulks...for 5 minutes and goes back at it! The 5-minute sulking time is actually pretty good, he use to only sulk for a second or two, at least now (14 weeks) he's actually processing what she's trying to tell him! :lol:

judy
22nd June 2006, 05:08 PM
What sort of dog is Abby?..

they're all three cavaliers. Abby is the youngest, though Molly is the smallest (7 and 8 weeks). Kayla is 14 months.

judy
22nd June 2006, 05:14 PM
Woody was just the same with Ozzy - jumping on him, growling, grabbing his ear but it just got better, we made a clapping noise with our hands and said no that seems to work most of the time if it started looking rough.

I did watch Doggy Borstel where they had a plastic bottle filled with stone and made a noise with a sharp NO when they were doing something wrong - not sure if they are to young to use this with.....

It does sound to me like normal puppy playfulness, play fighting, and testing of what she can and can't get away with--and the problem is arising from the two other dogs both not wanting to play, yet they themselves are not letting limits on Abby, they are reacting passively and Abby is not getting that there's a problem.

A friend of mine told me he and his wife got coffee cans and filled them with pennies half full and then would shake them to give their dogs a noxious experience if they were doing something unacceptable. The example he was giving was the dogs getting on a couch they were not supposed to go on. He said after the first couple times of shaking the can, all he had to do was leave the can sitting on the couch and the dog would not go near it.

I haven't tried it or found it necessary--but getting the dog's attention, interrupting what they are doing, seems necessary if a behavior is unacceptable, to make a strong impression on them that they're not supposed to do that. I am wondering if using a clicker and then praising them when they stop the behavior would work. i have a book called Click For Joy, can't remember the author right now, am hoping to have time to read it soon.

judy
22nd June 2006, 05:55 PM
Please ALLOW Abby to do this with Kayla. It is fine that Kayla is growling (as Tara's advice notes) and even if she yelps midly snaps at Abby that is OK -- do not intervene unless this turns into a serious scuffle. Kayla is doing a very very valuable service of teaching Abby some manners....Most adults are actually very tolerant of this kind of thing but will let the puppy know when she has gone too far and dsiciplien with a yelp, a growl, even a small nip. Or Kayla will get up and leave Abby. That is fine -- that is exactly how a n adult disciplines; one aspect is they will walk away leaving the puppy with no one to play with and this is just the right mix of things for an adult to do. Likewise let the two puppies sort things out amongst themselves. They are testing their teeth and behaviours and they help teach each other what is too rough and what is acceptable. Just leave them to it unless one puppy is seriously having problems. As with kids they need to try out acceptable behaviour and learn that when you are too rough, no one will play with you. You cannot teach them that by separating them.

If you intervene you are potentially causing much frustration for Kayla and the puppy will not learn any boundaries to her behaviour.

I had thought Abby was another adult dog. If an adult is plaguing a puppy that is a very different matter.

Gillian: please, you should never need to smack a dog and especially a puppy, for discipline. Then you will end up with a dog that is fearful of you and of raised hands and setting up many potential behaviour problems. If you need to punish a dog for misbehaviour caught at the time, a single firm 'no' and then isolation for 5-10 minutes -- eg a time out by itself in a room (NOT a crate, you don;t ever want bad associations with a crate) -- is far more effective. Most dogs hate to be separated from you more than anything else...

what people said about smacking is so true--the last thing you want is for a dog to be afraid of your hands, or you. i've seen it happen, it's sad when dogs duck their heads when you only want to pet them.

karlin--you are so right about kids, parents can't engineer kids relationships, they have to work it out, adults must insure and provide safety, and of course that can be a judgement call and something you get better at with experience. Same with dogs. I've found myself wondering at the dog park whether any given behavior is getting beyond the limits of safety or if the dogs are just working things out with some roughness. It's my inexperience that i don't have a clear sense of where the line is drawn in each given situation, just learning by trial and error, and hoping nobody gets hurt.

In this case, it's not Kayla who is growling. It's only Abby who is growling. It seems the other dogs are not teaching Abby about how to relate to them, but are acting intimidated. Kayla does avoid Abby, apparently all the time, which is not giving Abby a chance to figure out what behavior might have a better result, although i would hope in time they will get this worked out. Molly does yelp, but it has not redirecting effect on Abby. Molly is developing fearfulness of Abby and Kayla is into avoidance, and Abby is continuing the behavior. However, i do think Abby will learn. I think Gillian said she saw an improvement, not sure if it was this thread or another one, it might've been another story, another dog.

So, if the other dogs are not growling or putting out any behavior that's teaching Abby some limits, then what do you suggest? Still wait and see and let them keep sorting it out between them, or redirect Abby?

i do love your suggestion of using a time out. I used it very effectively with my daughter. When i bit Zack :yikes this was because saying "NHAAHH!" or "No" had been tried repeatedly, and he did stop, everytime. but if i didn't watch him constantly, he would just do it again and again, maybe not til the next day, or maybe the same day, but this was the only example where "nhaaah" didn't have more lasting results. The idea of biting him was so foreign to me, but then finally, i just was at a loss for what else to do. To my surprise, it worked, and really turned things around, resulting in a happier household for Fluffy, and the end of chronic frustration for me, and Zack getting scolded too often. Since then, there's been once or twice i've considered doing it but something in me has an aversion to it and i can't get my heart in it, i can't do it with seriousness that would make it effective. But that one time, i may not have been a mother dog to him, but i was a mother who he did take seriously--again, to my surprise.

This was before it occurred to me to try time outs. I never thought time out would work with a dog, i underestimated their cognitive ability to associate the time out with the behavior. But i think it was because i read something you said on the forum that gave me the idea to try it at the dog park when Zack was, uncharacteristically, humping another dog over and over and over, despite my saying "Nhaah" and getting him to stop for a moment--then he would start again. So, i clipped the leash on him and took him to the picnic table where the people were chatting, telling him 'No" and i had him sit, and i chatted with the people, and if another dog came near, i kept them away and kept a close eye on Zack. I did it for about 2 or 3 minutes and then let him go, telling him to be good, and he didn't do it again! Again, to my surprise. I think my worst mistake is to underestimate his ability to understand certain things.

I've also been using time out at home if i come home and Zack has chewed something he's not supposed to. I will leave some things around that he's not supposed to chew, but which will not be a problem for me if he does chew, such as paper towels. Then if he does chew them, i can use it as a learning experience, putting him in the kitchen while me and Fluffy hang out just a few feet away in the living room. You know that expression, "he's in the doghouse," which means to be in trouble and acting guilty? Zack's crate is in the kitchen so when he's in time out, he goes in his crate acting sad, and i think of that expression. :) it's kind of cute. I've only been doing it a short time after being very dissatisfied with scolding him as soon as i come home, preferring to have a happy reunion or at least not a harsh one. Calmly putting him in time out feels much better to me. And i think it's working. The times i come home to anything having been chewed or moved from its spot are the exception, i don't get a chance to try time out very often. I am also ready to use it for repeated barking at squirrels or noises, but i haven't needed to because he stops when told to so far. Since i started using it about a month and a half ago, i've only used time out at home about 3 times so far, and twice at the dog park. Very effective!

I think that time out might be a good idea for Gillian to use with Abby. Abby apparently loves to play and pretend she is a rough tough dog, and unfortunately the other dogs don't want to do this with her and they are not effectively getting her to stop, like when Zack was humping that dog, so Gillian could tell her No, or growl at her, and take her to another room away from the dogs for a couple of minutes (or more?) and then let her go back, and if she does it again, bring her back to time out again, saying "No."

i can sure understand Gillian wanting to do something if Molly is becoming fearful and Kayla is unhappy. Time out might be useful. but hopefully they will all work it out.

Mary
23rd June 2006, 01:45 AM
This is just normal puppy play. These are very young dogs who would have learned and done this play within their litter if they had been kept long enough as a litter. They need to learn this socialization with each other. They are establishing boundaries learning pack behavior. Please do not ever smack you pup. Separate them if they get too rough but I do not think 2 pups that are so young would truly hurt each other. I had a litter awhile ago and sometimes it sounds as if they are going to literally rip each other apart but they let each other know when enough is enough and that is important for them.

Maxxs_Mummy
23rd June 2006, 09:21 AM
I agree with what the others have said about not smacking. I have a dog who is terrified of getting smacked as he's so obviously had it done to him in the past.

We've had Charlie for 7 months now and would never use smacking as a punishment. However, it took us quite a while to teach him to accept that our hands were for love and fuss and feeding.

Even so, he surprised me the other day. We were in the kitchen and I saw that the door was about to slam. I put my hand 'palm out' to stop it & Charlie immediately ducked down with his head down and his tail underneath him and lay there quivering :( . It took me a good five minutes to calm him down again. I could quite seriously murder whoever it was that hurt him and put so much fear into him.

The difference in my two boys is inbelieveable. Maxx is everything that a Cavalier should be. Happy, 'fearless' (yeah right, when he barks at anything new hahahaha), cheeky & excellent with people. Poor Charlie on the other hand is getting there now but still extremely fearful of lots of situations (to the extent that he drools uncontrollably & cowers in the corner), he's not very confident with people although this is improving & at last, after seven months he is starting to show his true Cavalier personality :D

My neighbour couldn't believe the difference in him when he came across last week. Charlie actually approached him for a fuss and after about an hour, jumped on the sofa and sat beside him. He was totally amazed as he said that even a couple of months ago he'd have hidden behind the sofa! I think it helped that my two sometimes get walked with his Border Collie and Charlie could obviously smell Sam on him :lol: