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Gillian
12th August 2006, 07:53 AM
Still having trouble with Abby doing her wee wee on paper outside in the balcony. The balcony is left open all day.
Yesterday we went for a walk and I was hoping she might do a wee but no, when we came in I took her straight to the paper , she wouldnt do and then she did on her bedding in the crate that was open.
Any suggestions/??
What am I doing wrong?? and yes I waited a long time for her to do but she just sat and looked at me and then lay down on the paper.
Also if someone can tell me what to do if she , which she does once in a while, actually goes out in balcony and wees on floor near paper.
Thanks, I hope I am not boring you. This is driving me crazy.

judy
12th August 2006, 08:05 AM
how old is abbey now?

Maxxs_Mummy
12th August 2006, 12:19 PM
Yes Gillian, how old is she now?

Karlin
12th August 2006, 01:59 PM
At this point I'd really guess she needs to be taken outside, not expected to go on a balcony... Just taking her two feet onto a balcony probably makes no connection for her as a prefereable place she is supposed to use, and just as with a garden you MUST stay there with her, outside, until she goes and then treat/praise and do this consistently, every single time she needs to go. You can't decide you've waited long enough and that she isn't going to go then have her have consistent accidents inside. It may not be convenient but you simply have to stay with her to teach her where she is supposed to go as she will have no idea that because you stand there for a brief while then go back in, that this was supposed to be the time when she would relieve herself outside and not inside. This takes time, commitment and conistency.

If you want her permanently paper or litter trained, get Shirlee Kalstone's book on housetraining as it has a whole section on doing this.

Gillian
12th August 2006, 04:03 PM
Abby is 15 weeks old tomorrow.
I dont just take her out briefly I stay with her all the time.
I bought the book How to House Train Your Dog in 7 Days. What I dont understand is that you usually say . Treat, Treat Treat. The book says that you shouldnt treat for toilet training.A bit confusing eh!!
Well thanks for your replys.

Moviedust
12th August 2006, 08:39 PM
Abby is 15 weeks old tomorrow.
I dont just take her out briefly I stay with her all the time.
I bought the book How to House Train Your Dog in 7 Days. What I dont understand is that you usually say . Treat, Treat Treat. The book says that you shouldnt treat for toilet training.A bit confusing eh!!
Well thanks for your replys.

Treats are one way to reward a dog, and a reward is necessary for the dog to associate behaviors with a positive outcome. If there's no benefit for the dog to go outside, it is A LOT simpler to keep going inside. You are the one who appreciates the difference, so the reward needs to reflect how much you value the behavior. The reward can be many different things, and some dogs will value some things over others. Finding out what motivates your dog is key. Most dogs, but not all, are food-motivated, and different types of food are ranked at different levels. For example, cooked chicken is generally high on the list while a piece of kibble is acceptable, but not too exciting. If you use a food reward and you really want your dog to know how great what he has done is, use the reward that matches the rank of the behavior.

Not all dogs are food motivated, and using food as a treat while house training is sometimes questioned because you are just basically re-loading the dog for more outings! Other rewards can be substituted for foods--a special toy and playtime out in the yard when the dog has successfully relieved himself and an obese heaping of praise are often used.

The most important aspect of the house training is the positive reward for good behavior. If you are having difficulty and you arent using a food reward, you might want to give it a try. If you use a highly valued food reward--something the dog goes nuts for--the more likely the dog will want to repeat the good behavior, i.e. go outside.

I also like to add a command to my dogs' outdoor "activity". Once they are house broken, it is helpful to be able to give the command (in our case, "go potty"), when you want the dog to empty it's bladder before you leave the dog alone inside for a period of time. To associate the command with the behavior, when you see the dog squat (or lift!) say the command. When the dog is done, say "good potty" or whatever. Do this consistently every time the dog goes, and it will associate the command with going. (sorta like how running water makes humans need to go!)

judy
13th August 2006, 07:41 PM
You mentioned her peeing in her bedding in her open crate. does she pee in her crate when she's inside and the door is closed? How much room does she have in the crate, relative to, if she pees in the crate, will she be forced to lay right next to it, or can she get away from it by a foot or more?

Have you tried crate training?

I think she is still young enough that it's normal for her to not be getting the idea yet. You must, as i'm sure you know, use enzyme cleaner like Nature's Miracle, to eliminat the odor, get your self a blacklight to make sure all the odor causing substances are gone, perhaps get Nature's Miracle laundry detergent or treatment.

About her going pee outside next tot he paper rather than on it, i think (rightly or wrongly) I would praise her for a "good wee" for going outside.
Zack sometimes pees on the patio or on the door mat instead of in the grass or off the patio where he's supposed to, and part of me wants to interrupt him while he's peeing on the doormat (which i then have to wash off and hose off the patio) while the stronger part of me does not want to confuse him about inside/outside and as long as he's outside, i just praise him when he's done, but i'm figured out that all i have to do is stand on the door mat and he won't pee on it, he'll pee somewhere else. after abby pees next to the paper, i'd praise her and put her on the paper and pleasantly say "pee here." and do that each time.

I have not had to do what you're doing, i'm lucky to have a backyard, what you're dealing with sounds a bit more challenging. it could take her longer than expected and just having her do it on the patio rather than inside, might be easier for her to grasp than a paper. after she gets the idea of inside/outside, then start using a paper or litter box or paper? I mean, keep the paper or litter box available but focus the lesson just on inside/outside until she gets that part?

Inside, when i first got Zack, i used wee pads, and he showed a tendency to go on them, they were by the doors on the inside. It's not like he clearly got it, he woudl occasionally go right in the middle of the carpet, far from the pads, but generally, he would go to the pads. I found I had to put lots of pads, not just one, otherwise, he would put part of it on the pad and part of it on the carpet. so, i used 4 wee pads to give him a big target and that worked (this was very necessary because he had diarrhea in those days). How big of an area does your paper cover, what size is her target?

zack learned to go outside fairly quickly, i never gave him any treats for doing it, just praise, i'm forgetful and i can never remember to bring a treat with me so i'll have it at the right time. I did get a little treat pouch to clip on the belt loop, but i forget to put it on. maybe it's because i never used treats to train previous dogs so i'm just not used to it, by long habit, i just go with talking to the dog and praise and habit, repetition. It never occurred to me to teach a dog to pee on command, until i got Zack. I never had the need to do it before, and i never had the need to do it with Zack either, but i read about it and it sounded cool so i always say "go pee" when i let him outside, and then whenever he pees i say "Good pee!"
it's hard to tell if it's working because he was going anyway, but i think he might associate the word with doing it.

i think zack and my other dogs learned to go outside quickly and going inside never became an issue mainly because i always had backyards, and combined wiht my training style, that has worked well. I am sure that other training styles can help a dog learn quickly wihtout a back yard. But how quick is quick? it was just written recently on one of these threads that dogs won't really competely get it until a year old, and Zack is proof of that.

you have my sympathy! good luck!

Karlin
14th August 2006, 12:14 AM
Gillian, it is clearly too brief a time spent with her on the balcony if she isnt going when you are there with her, and she is still going in the house. Either you need to start taking her outside, on a walk, where she will clearly get the idea of going someowhere other than in the house, or you will have to stay outside with her, on your balcony, for as long as it takes until she goes. That may mean 5, 10 or even 20 minutes qualifies as 'too brief' if she still isn't going. Maybe you need to stay out there with her for 30 minutes until you are sure she knows that is the only place she gets copious praise and reward for going. Every time you allow her to go in the house, it is a small step back and a reinforcement to her that she is allowed to go indoors and makes he less likely to understand you want her to go in a particular place. Only you can make her understand the difference by showing her where she is supposed to go, and that means you have to spend the full time with her that it takes for her to make a definite connection between reward and going outside.

If you are using the Kalstone book (are you?) I would have assumed she would have no opportunity to go inside because you would -- as the book recommends -- either bring her in and carry her, crate her, have her on your lap or tether her to you by a lead so that she is never out of eyesight, and has no chance to go. Have you read through the full routine? If you have, you'll know housetraining isn't just about praise or treats. It's about making 100% sure that the pup always is able to make the right choice on where to go by restricting her options in a consistent way and rewarding the correct choice.

As Cathy notes 'reward' is the idea and it doesn't matter if it is praise or treats if you get results with praise alone. Personally, I have found treats are about 500% more motivational. No one has to do 100 % of anything recommended in a book or by a trainer, but the book gives excellent guidelines and schedules as well as recommends a way of training a dog to go on papers or use a litter box. That may abe a better option that just going on the balcony). If praise isn;t convicning Abby that it is worth going where you want her to go, than I strongly suggest trying something along the lines of what Cathy suggests.

And remember, YOU are the one that asked for advice! :) All people can comment on is what you yourself have stated is the problem.

Gillian
15th August 2006, 08:50 AM
Thank you very much for all your replys and advice. It is truly appreciated.
We have had one day with one wee on floor and one without any. Yeah!!!!
I am sure it will fall into place in time.
The problem with Abby is that sometimes she wees on paper and then within the half hour of playtime she does another one. That was my problem. She didnt give me a chance to crate her. Then at other =times she can go 3 hrs without going. thats why it was confusing. but I will plod along and try all the tips I got until we get it right.
Thanks again.

judy
15th August 2006, 08:57 AM
glad to hear she's improving. You must be doing something right. :)
no urinary tract infection, right?

your avatar is soooo cute. nice pose of the little ones. Those eyes on kayla, wow!

Alison_Leighfield
15th August 2006, 09:14 AM
Some sort of routine would be a great help as well. As soon as they wake it's potty time, very soon after food it's potty time, after play it's potty time, after a walk it's potty time.

Look and watch your pup, spot the signals, sniffing... looking for somewhere to go wee wees, around in circles...going for a poo etc, the signals are there, get in tune with your pup by watching, when you see the signals pop her out and wait, when the job is done you must reward.

My shelties had a ball game when they were being trained. They were and are still not very motivated by food, Cavaliers always seem to be!

Do you have a garden or a park nearby? or just the balcony? I guess if you only have the balcony then paper training will need to be done otherwise you will end up with a bigger mess with a bigger wee as she gets bigger!!! :yikes :yikes :yikes

Myself being lucky with a garden, I missed the paper training bit and just started as we meant to carry on, into the garden on day 1.

I hope things soon get better, try to keep calm about it all, she is still very small and even with a bigger pup I still re-enfoce gentle toilet training for many months. Once you slack off and they step back it seems harder to pick it all up again. Well worth all your time and patience on this one.

I lived in Malta myself as a child for 5 yrs, how I still miss that sun! I remember we had a huge ginger tom cat and my mother was always up and down the stairs with him under her arm, now I know what she was doing! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

Maxxs_Mummy
15th August 2006, 12:16 PM
Gillian,

All I can really say is that at 15 weeks her bladder isn't going to be very strong and so if it were me, I'd be in and out every 15-30 minutes with her.

This is how I have trained all my dogs and when they've been give them loads of praise and fuss. Even now, Charlie is quite comical. he'll go out the garden for a wee and then come in and look at me as if to say "Well get excited then Mamma - I did it!!!!"

I know it's a bind to have to spend so much time outside toilet training but with the exception of Charlie, I've never had a problem with any of mine peeing in the house so it does pay off.

I must admit that Charlie is getting better but he has a lot of health problems so when he does have an accident it's a case of least said soonest mended!

Gillian
15th August 2006, 05:05 PM
Thanks for all your support. Its great to have so many nice people giving advice and trying to help out. I am sure it will get better
As for urinary tract infection . I have been thinking about that . I will call the vet tomorrow and ask if I can take a sample to be checked as besides doing very often she also does huge wees sometimes.
I will let you know the progress.
Thanks again to all!!!

kaylanova
16th August 2006, 01:24 PM
glad to hear she's improving. You must be doing something right. :)
no urinary tract infection, right?

your avatar is soooo cute. nice pose of the little ones. Those eyes on kayla, wow!

Yup thats my baby she speaks with her eyes, she is so sensitive, but we love her to bits :D

Cathy Moon
17th August 2006, 03:01 AM
Hi Kayla's Dad,
We think Kayla is a cutie! Every time I show my husband a picture with her in it, he comments on how pretty she is. :wggle:

kaylanova
17th August 2006, 10:43 AM
Hi Kayla's Dad,
We think Kayla is a cutie! Every time I show my husband a picture with her in it, he comments on how pretty she is. :wggle:

Thanks alot Cathy. I see you have 3 cuties of your own in your Avatar, just got love Cavalliers :luv:

PhylB
17th August 2006, 11:52 PM
Is it possible that your Abby thinks the balcony is part of the house, or "den"?

This winter, our 11-year-old Cavalier had to go out after a major snowstorm. The driveway wasn't cleared, and the drifts were huge. She went out onto the front steps, where the snow was not deep, but grew into a huge drift, and peed on the top part of the steps. She then cowered, as though to say, "I think I peed in the HOUSE!"

So, perhaps the suggestions of taking Abby out for a walk may help clarify to her what's appropriate?

Good luck. I have a 12-week Ruby Abby and we're working on all sorts of behavior!

Forest
18th August 2006, 08:53 AM
My girls still come running inside for their treat after going outside and they are nearly 4 and nearly 3!!! :roll:
Julie and the girls