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View Full Version : Why are Cavaliers such an expensive breed?



Sharon
6th September 2006, 04:56 AM
This is the first time we have had a Cavalier and I would love to get a play mate for our little Wrigley, but they are so expensive compared to other breeds. Apart from being absolutely adorable, what makes them such an expensive breed? Is it because they originate from the UK? Even other English Spaniels, such as the Cocker, are not as expensive.

If anyone knows of a good breeder in/close to Texas that doesn't charge the earth, please let me know. I would dearly love to get another to keep our pup company, but can't stretch to $1000 upwards at the moment.

Thanks.
Sharon

judy
6th September 2006, 07:08 AM
good question. $1000 was low end when i was shopping early this year. $2000 and up was the going rate from reputable breeders generally. Not that there couldn't be exceptions to that, but that was what i was finding and what i was told by a local breeder who was giving me some advice and information.

Good luck getting a second one. I think it 's a wonderful idea, for companionship for the other dog especially, not to mention double pleasure for the humans. :flwr:

luvzcavs
6th September 2006, 08:01 AM
I probably should not even try and answer this as I am not a breeder and the truth is I do not know but.....

I would imagine the responsible breeders have to try and recoup some of the costs for the health screening that is required to breed a ckcs ?

Worth every cent though, and anyway who needs food and electricity and all that if you've got the love of a cav !! Just kidding :p

Jen114
6th September 2006, 10:25 AM
In Malta believe it or not they are one of the cheaper breeds to buy. I do not understand why they are so cheap compared to the rest of the world. We have only one breeder in Malta she charges

Lm 175.00 Malta liri

equivalent to
287 sterling
522 dollars

Maxxs_Mummy
6th September 2006, 10:41 AM
OK then, I'm not a breeder but I have had enough contact with breeders to understand why Cavaliers are so expensive.

A Pregnant Cavalier's trips to the Vets are usually numerous - not covered by healthcare and usually expensive.

Health screening before each litter is not at all cheap, especially if you get all screening done.

Litters are usually small, sometimes only one or two pups.

Extra food for Mum and food and care for the pups.

It all costs money you know and tbh I would much rather pay the money for a good, strong, healthy puppy than buy one from a BYB for next to nothing and have all sorts of health problems that cost me a fortune and caused pain and suffering to the furbaby.

All in all, when you think that $1000 (£530) over a period of 10-14 years (average life expectancy of a healthy Cavalier) it's not an awful lot.

Also, I live in England and can assure you that I would expect to pay more than £530 for a good healthy puppy. Maxx is 7 now and I paid almost that when we got him as a puppy!

Karlin
6th September 2006, 11:02 AM
Oh boy, this is a big topic!

First: please consider an older dog from a breeder, or a rescue cavalier -- either of these options can allow someone who truly wants a cavalier, and is truly operating on a budget but committed to the dogs' welfare, to acquire a worthy cavalier at a lower cost than a puppy from a good breeder. But see the caveats that follow below regarding price.

Cavaliers cost far less in the UK and Ireland as well; there have been many discussions (and arguments) on lists and boards as to why this is so. Even breeders will disagree strongly on this one!

It is partly to do with costs amd geographies and of course, supply and demand... cavaliers are one of the most common breeds in the UK and Ireland and readily available. They are still much harder to find in the US and hence the market supports higher prices. They also have small litters, sometimes only one or two puppies, which can make them more costly.

BUT -- and this is the crux of a broader issue connected to the issue of cost -- if a breeder is NOT

* cardiac testing every year
* testing hips, eyes, patellas
* perhaps also doing any sort of exam or an MRI for syringomyelia
* not using studs that are equally health-tested and therefore known to be of good quality (and therefore having little by way of stud fee)

And if the breeder does NOT

* have breeding stock of real quality (and initial cost) that enable them to be registered with REAL national registries, not the fake ones that are meaningless; and likewise register all their puppies with same (In US, that means ONLY AKC or CKCSC)
* dedicate any personal time to understanding genetics, pedigrees and breed history
* understand or worse, care about all the implications of not breeding for health
* participate in clubs activites most importantly, showing to make sure s/he understands conformation, health and other breed quality issues
* give any time to raising the litter nefore homing, in a health and temperament-focused way
* have a commitment as ANY good breeder should to take back, without questions, any dog bred by them for any reason at any point in its life


Then you can see how easy it is to sell puppies for almost no cost at all.

Health testing over time induces costs, as does proper whelping care and vet care for the pups and mother. And commitment to the breed as a whole, over time, so that you are producing the best quality dogs (NOT show dogs but QUALITY dogs -- people mistake getting a puppy from a quality show breeder as meaning they want a show quality dog. Few puppies bred by a good breeder EVER are show or more especially, breeding quality -- but all will be from quality breeding programmes where health and temperament is as important as conformation (looks). And that is why going to a reputable breeder is so important).

If you don't put any time into your own dogs and your litters, then you have few direct or indirect costs to recoup, and have little interest in recovering the add-on value (to use a blunt marketing term) that your time, diligence and commitment is worth.

Your interest will be in breeding as cheaply as possible, and making money as easily as possible. A few hundred whatevers here or there don't matter much when another litter is on its way.

Consider overall costs during the lifetime of a dog. I have seen again and again, and hear regularly from, people who buy puppies from breeders who sell a little more cheaply, often dogs 'bred by the sister of this person in Ireland/England' or a person who doesn;t show but has so-called 'quality imports' or who argues their slightly cheaper dogs are registered with the fake registries 'because the AKC/CKCSC is really just a stuffy club'. They end up with puppies that can literally cost thousands in vet costs due to their sickliness as puppies, or they die at age 6 from congestive heart failure because the breeder didn;t bother with heart health, or they couldn;t get money refunded from supposed 'breeder' when their puppy tragically died, or their 'breeder' won't respond to any calls or emails when they start to have problems, usually health problems, with the puppy.

At that time the same refrain comes up -- "I wish I'd gone to a reputable breeder and paid a little more."

Consider too that the difference of a few hundred dollars/pounds/euro counts for a tiny amount of what your dog is likely to cost in food, vet, boarding and health vosts per year for the next decade-plus. The OVERALL cost of keeping a dog, especially a purebred that does have some known serious and costly health issues as real possibilities during its lifetime, needs to be kept in mind when opting for a purebred. If the upfron t cost seems daunting, what will people do when facing a vet bill for $1200? A $2000 MRI scan? A patella surgery for $800? Kennelling costs of $500-1000 for two weeks?

Looking for a good breeder and getting value for your money takes time and effort and research -- as there are too many willing to relieve you of your money for dogs from trash breeding programmes that damage the breed and its health in the medium to long term, whatever the case with an individual puppy.

How to find a good breeder:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2757

Sadly many people put more time (and value paying for quality more) when buying a TV or dishwasher than they do with buying a living creature that will live in a house with a family for a decade or more, with luck. :(

merlinsmum
6th September 2006, 01:31 PM
To quote the mastercard advert:

A meal out, £50
A new washer, £200
A new cavalier, priceless.........

Whats £500, when you can have 10 years of unconditional love and affection?

(Maybe I could swop my other half for the new puppy - no, I'd have to pay more for them to take him!!) icon_whistling

Mary
6th September 2006, 02:05 PM
People seem to always cringe at the cost of a well bred cavalier but you know when you look at other breeds that are from breeders who do testing etc to ensure quality dogs....their prices are just as high. Pugs, labs...any dog can and will cost you the same as a cavalier and the cost is all in part due to the cost of raising the mom/pop and litter.

joanna
6th September 2006, 02:11 PM
The initial cost of a dog is nothing when you consider the cost of keeping them for a decade. Cheaper than a child, I agree, but still a big responsibility.

Joanna

WoodHaven
6th September 2006, 02:42 PM
This is the first time we have had a Cavalier and I would love to get a play mate for our little Wrigley, but they are so expensive compared to other breeds. Apart from being absolutely adorable, what makes them such an expensive breed? Is it because they originate from the UK? Even other English Spaniels, such as the Cocker, are not as expensive.

If anyone knows of a good breeder in/close to Texas that doesn't charge the earth, please let me know. I would dearly love to get another to keep our pup company, but can't stretch to $1000 upwards at the moment.

Thanks.
Sharon


The mixed breeds at our local Petland go for 700 plus dollars. There are (some terriers- french bulldogs to name a couple) breeds that are MORE expensive than cavaliers. Texas gets a lot of rescues-- If you just want a loving buddy for your cavalier, you might fill out an application for rescue and see if one that fits you comes through.

judy
6th September 2006, 08:38 PM
...And if the breeder does NOT

[list]* have breeding stock of real quality (and initial cost) that enable them to be registered with REAL national registries, not the fake ones that are meaningless; and likewise register all their puppies with same (In US, that means ONLY AKC or CKCSC)

...a person who doesn;t show but has so-called 'quality imports' or who argues their slightly cheaper dogs are registered with the fake registries 'because the AKC/CKCSC is really just a stuffy club'.

Just to add that puppy buyers wanting to buy a dog from quality stock cannot just go by AKC registry. This was something i was educated about by the person who taught me the details and cruicial importance of health testing for this breed. AKC registry does not in any way mean a dog's parents and grandparents have been health tested. I'm not exactly sure what AKC does certify or guarantee. What is it? In what way is it superior to the fake registries? It would be naive for a puppy buyer to think that because a puppy is AKC registered, they can count on reputable breeding as it's defined here.

What about CKCSC registry? Are they any more stringent than AKC about breeding protocols?



...Sadly many people put more time (and value paying for quality more) when buying a TV or dishwasher than they do with buying a living creature that will live in a house with a family for a decade or more, with luck. :(

I can also tell you that a person can put months of careful research into learning about how to buy the best quality puppy but if the supply from such breeders is not enough to meet demand and the puppies from such breeders are too rare, demand will tend to be met in other ways. There are also stringent restrictions on obtaining a rescue cavalier, so unless there can be any change in these circumstances, the attention to health testing throughout the breed is going to be a distant ideal at best.

I've heard some propose that breed clubs might use their funds to make health testing more affordable for more breeders, in the interest of improving and protecting the health of the breed. I haven't heard any discussion of pros and cons of that idea.

WoodHaven
6th September 2006, 09:04 PM
...And if the breeder does NOT

[list]* have breeding stock of real quality (and initial cost) that enable them to be registered with REAL national registries, not the fake ones that are meaningless; and likewise register all their puppies with same (In US, that means ONLY AKC or CKCSC)

...a person who doesn;t show but has so-called 'quality imports' or who argues their slightly cheaper dogs are registered with the fake registries 'because the AKC/CKCSC is really just a stuffy club'.

Just to add that puppy buyers wanting to buy a dog from quality stock cannot just go by AKC registry. This was something i was educated about by the person who taught me the details and cruicial importance of health testing for this breed. AKC registry does not in any way mean a dog's parents and grandparents have been health tested. I'm not exactly sure what AKC does certify or guarantee. What is it? In what way is it superior to the fake registries? It would be naive for a puppy buyer to think that because a puppy is AKC registered, they can count on reputable breeding as it's defined here.

What about CKCSC registry? Are they any more stringent than AKC about breeding protocols?



...Sadly many people put more time (and value paying for quality more) when buying a TV or dishwasher than they do with buying a living creature that will live in a house with a family for a decade or more, with luck. :(

I can also tell you that a person can put months of careful research into learning about how to buy the best quality puppy but if the supply from such breeders is not enough to meet demand and the puppies from such breeders are too rare, demand will tend to be met in other ways. There are also stringent restrictions on obtaining a rescue cavalier, so unless there can be any change in these circumstances, the attention to health testing throughout the breed is going to be a distant ideal at best.

I've heard some propose that breed clubs might use their funds to make health testing more affordable for more breeders, in the interest of improving and protecting the health of the breed. I haven't heard any discussion of pros and cons of that idea.


An AKC registered dog means the parents are AKC registered. That is all. You can lose your ability to use the AKC registry things like poor breeding practices, DNA incorrect, not allowing the investigators in to check you out. The AKC allows breeders to register pups with restrictions-- nonbreeding restrictions-- Fake registeries don't care if you weren't suppose to breed your dog. Many just require a picture and if your dog LOOKS like a breed-- they give people papers. It allows people to look ligit (see my dog has papers). NOT being AKC registerable seems like a huge red flag in my opinion.


The CKCSC, USA has a code of ethics: things like minimum and maximum breeding ages, max number of litters, required registrations. They also have recommendations for testing, I believe.

I am part of 4 different cavalier rescues--- what stringent restrictions are you referring to??

If you go to breeder referral sections of cavalier breed clubs, you could come up with MANY pups looking for a home right now -- sometimes distance is an issue. But I've also seen people with big hearts who want a rescue bad enough that they drive all weekend to take a chance on a cavalier that can have many issues and carry a lot of baggage.

The CKCSC,USA already has health clinics about once a month (mostly heart and eye clinics)-- many of the small akc cavalier clubs also make an effort to sponser health clinics. There have been a couple of MRI clinics and there are people working to get more-- these are very expensive and time consuming.

Sharon
6th September 2006, 09:31 PM
Sandy

As I am new to owning a Cavalier and also to this site, are there any links to some good rescue clubs in the US (particularly Texas and surrounding).

I can appreciate all of the replies about why Cavs are expensive initially, but, we still have our limits that we can stretch to. Having seen the pictures of Cavs together, and read all the posts about owning two or more Cavs, I would love for our little pup to have a companion to grow up with, as well as our family. He is a happy little chap, but I also think he would benefit from having another 4 legged friend to run around with and snuggle up to. Perhaps a rescue dog could be our answer.

Sharon

WoodHaven
6th September 2006, 09:57 PM
Sandy

As I am new to owning a Cavalier and also to this site, are there any links to some good rescue clubs in the US (particularly Texas and surrounding).

I can appreciate all of the replies about why Cavs are expensive initially, but, we still have our limits that we can stretch to. Having seen the pictures of Cavs together, and read all the posts about owning two or more Cavs, I would love for our little pup to have a companion to grow up with, as well as our family. He is a happy little chap, but I also think he would benefit from having another 4 legged friend to run around with and snuggle up to. Perhaps a rescue dog could be our answer.

Sharon

Rescue cavaliers usually need more time and patience (but not always) than a normal dog. Some have spent years in pens with little to no human interaction. Many are older and some have never been in a home - so a toilet flushing, a door bell or a simple tv can cause them distress at first. Some have never been housetrained.
Lucky Star Cavalier Rescue is just that-- they rescue dogs from dispicable conditions - the dogs are vetted (spay/neuter, checked over cured of infecting and infestation), fostered and homed. www.luckystarcavalierrescue.org
CKCSCR- gets some rescues in, but they do a lot of rehoming. Some of these dogs have been neglected, some are not in the best of health.
www.ckcsc.org -- under rescue--- online application

I am still wondering about the stringent restrictions you mentioned. Most rescues (any and all breed) want you to have a fenced in yard -- if not, you would have to convinced them that you have a good way to allow the dogs to eliminate often. Most don't want the dog left alone all day, everyday. Some of these dogs have experienced neglect if not outright abuse. Cavaliers need people (or at least another dog) to help them live a good life.

Sharon
6th September 2006, 10:13 PM
Sandy

I am lucky in that I am at home nearly all the time with my children. We have a large home with a good size back yard which is completely fenced. The kids have just started at a preschool a few mornings a week, which gives me time to spend at home quietly with our pup.

I know we can offer a safe and loving environment for the right dog. The only worries I would have is concerning the dogs behaviour around the children. If our pup gets a bit nippy (as all pups do), the kids have learned to jump on the sofa and get out of his reach. I am teaching him that biting us is not good, and I think he is slowly getting the message. However, we would have to consider a rescue dog very carefully based on its nature, the same, I am sure, as we would carefully be considered as a family based on our lifestyle and what we could offer such a dog.

I think I will look into the possibility of a rescue dog a little more. Obviously, there is no guarantee that we would be the right fit for many of the rescue dogs, but we might just get lucky.

Thank you for the info.

Sharon

WoodHaven
6th September 2006, 10:19 PM
I've fostered more than a dozen cavaliers,,, they are fostered for a minimum of two weeks-- the last three were allowed to be with my 5 MONTH old grandson. Supervised of course, I would fear for the dogs, not the baby.

matties mum
6th September 2006, 10:27 PM
I would pay 2 times as much if I get a health puppy and a happy dog having lost 2 cavaliers to M V D in the last 10 years Aileen

judy
6th September 2006, 11:11 PM
An AKC registered dog means the parents are AKC registered. That is all. You can lose your ability to use the AKC registry things like poor breeding practices, DNA incorrect, not allowing the investigators in to check you out. The AKC allows breeders to register pups with restrictions-- nonbreeding restrictions-- Fake registeries don't care if you weren't suppose to breed your dog. Many just require a picture and if your dog LOOKS like a breed-- they give people papers. It allows people to look ligit (see my dog has papers). NOT being AKC registerable seems like a huge red flag in my opinion.

Thanks for clarifying that. When i was searching for a puppy, a local breeder with the highest standards and ethics warned not to just go by AKC registry when evaluating a puppy. She said just because a puppy is AKC registered doesn't mean he is from a breeder who does regular heart testing etc. Aren't some pet store puppies AKC registered? Please understand i'm not knocking the AKC, i knew that AKC registration did mean something important, i just didn't know what, and i appreciate hearing more specifically what kind of quality control they use. But also, i was told that a buyer of a cavalier could not just go by AKC registry alone in knowing whether the breeding was of the highest quality.

Zack is AKC registered but i don't think his breeder meets the kinds of standards that are considered to be the best. I was told though that when the AKC guy came out to check on the breeders' place and make sure it was up to their quality standards, the guy liked Zack's father so much, he bought him on the spot for a large sum.


The CKCSC, USA has a code of ethics: things like minimum and maximum breeding ages, max number of litters, required registrations. They also have recommendations for testing, I believe.

What are the requirements for CKCSC registration? I mean, is it required that the parents were registered, or is it more a matter of meeting those criteria you mentioned?


I am part of 4 different cavalier rescues--- what stringent restrictions are you referring to??

I just mean that i had to get written permission from my apartment landlord, and i was not willing to do that because i didn't want to put the landlord in a position of having to say no to enforce my rental agreement which says no pets, while i knew that if i got a sweet quiet little dog, they would not later kick me out as they are very kind and tentant-supportive, yet still, i wasn't willing to try to get them to put it writing so that they would be forced to say no before i got the dog. After the fact, you can make a case for implied consent if you have the dog long enough. I believe they know about Zack now and have not objected, thank goodness.

At the dog park, i have had many people tell me they were unable to get a rescue dog for the same reason that i didn't attempt it.

I consider these requirements by the rescue organizations to be reasonable, ethical and correct. But i still wanted to have a cavalier.

I did adopt a cat from a rescue once many years ago, and i don't remember being asked to get written permission but i do know that at that apartment, where i used to live, pets were allowed, that's when i got the first cat (from the pound) and then i got the second (from a rescue). As it is, i couldn't keep the second cat because the relationship between the two cats was a terrible disaster.

Anyway, I would always look into getting a rescue animal before buying commercially, and that is what i encountered when looking into rescuing a cavalier. Until i met my first cavalier last year, if i had wanted a dog, which i didn't, i would've gone to the pound to get a dog as in the past. And for the right dog, i would not hesitate to drive two days or fly, to get the dog, if i were able to rescue.


The CKCSC,USA already has health clinics about once a month (mostly heart and eye clinics)-- many of the small akc cavalier clubs also make an effort to sponser health clinics. There have been a couple of MRI clinics and there are people working to get more-- these are very expensive and time consuming.

That's good to know. So far, my efforts to find one locally haven't been successful, for heart testing. At one point, i was needing to prove to my pet insurance company that Zack's heart was OK, and i looked at the available low cost clinics and there were none within a couple hundred miles or more of me. At the office of the local cardiologist, Stephen Barnett, they quoted me $500-$600 for an echocardiogram. I live in Los Angeles County and would think that would be a large area to be served.

I'm glad there are people working to get more low cost clinics. Is it possible to target donations for that project?

Karlin
6th September 2006, 11:32 PM
Regarding registries -- while there are obvious reasons for not choosing breeders who register with the bogus registries (there's a list of them in the Library section), anyone looking for a puppy should be mindful that AKC or CKCSC should only ever be the STARTING point for researching a good breeder in the US (or other recognised national breed clubs in other locations -- it's IKC in Ireland, KC in UK).

There are no significant health or breeding protocols that the US clubs follow. No club in the US, Ireland or the UK requires any sort of health testing for example (only the Swedish club does, to my knowledge; their heart protocol is listed in the health part of the Library here and is very stringent, requiring a heart clearance on parents every 8 months for puppies to get club registration), though some clubs have recommendations. And while people can be removed from clubs, the complaint processes are cumbersome and slow, from all I've read of discussions amongst breeders themselves concerned about questionable people getting registrations for their puppies. But registration again is ONLY a basic verification and the clubs do not have the ability to police their large memberships to any great extent, even if they wanted to do this. I always say, view a proper club registration as something like a drivers license -- it indicates you have passed some basic requirements (unlike the bogus registries that anyone can get for any dog!) but gives no indication if you are a terrible driver.

Rescue puppies are rare, and as Sandy noted rescue puppies and dogs come from totally unknown backgrounds and need a lot of extra work which is extremely rewarding for the right person but shouldn't be taken on lightly. Some dogs fit in right away; others need time. It is worth therefore going to established breed rescues who vet homes and dogs before placing a dog and will work for a good match on both sides.

I have a list of all the breed rescues in the US pinned at the top of the breed rescue section of this website. for both clubs as well as Lucky Star.

I would seriously doubt the quality of any cavalier puppy in the US available for under $1500-2,500 depending on the breeder and the location. Even $1000 is worryingly low for any committed breeder doing the most basic health clearances -- the price is just too low and any purebred of any breed from a decent breeder is going to be around that level to start with.

Please realise a puppy from a poor breeder has far higher risks of health issues and an early death from MVD (it won;t matter much that it cost a bit less if you only have the dog for 5-6 years!! :( ). Dogs from breeders following heart protocols have significantly longer lives overall -- the difference being as long as DOUBLE the lifespan. So in every way, it is worth taking the time to find the right breeder and saving for a quality puppy --- or else making the commitment to a rescue that may need vet care down the line, but is very deserving. Or waiting until it might be financially easier to welcome a new puppy -- keep in mind that two dogs of similar age will grow old and bring extra vet costs with their aging, both at the same time, so it is worth having a few years between dogs. Buying poor quality puppies from poor quality breeders means you save very little over the upfront cost -- a few hundred dollars at most in many cases as the trash breeder knows the market and will price only just under the quality breeder's prices in the region -- and risk health issues from the start. Many here can testify to a litany of health problems in puppies from poor breeders, as many of us start from a point of not realising how many breeders are out there to dupe you into buying the dogs they breed so carelessly. And the poor breeders are ever there with advice or support. They simply do not care once they pocket your money.

The breed deserves so much more -- and buyers have the greatest power to push for change and make the market more difficult for the trash breeders, because buyers are the demand side of the market and have the money. The single most powerful thing any one of us can do is support a good breeder who values the health of this breed. It is a breed under serious pressure now from health issues and supporting the breeders who work to reverse this situation should be at the top of anyone's list who loves the breed.

Remali
7th September 2006, 12:07 AM
In my area, Cavaliers are fairly rare, so perhaps that is one reason they are more expensive here. Also, like someone already posted, they tend to have smaller litters.

Karlin
7th September 2006, 12:32 AM
Judy as far as I have seen a club health clinic would not be doing echocardiograms -- just ausculation. So you'd need to pay for that kind of health exam anyway.

Don;t you still feel it is very risky to take in animals on a lease saying no animals -- I think you still have to assume it may become an issue and need a contingency plan to avoid a potential crisis situation. One of the problems is that it isn't just the landlord or management company -- it is what other tenants think and do as well. If other tenants start to take in animals, or complain, there may be a crackdown at any time and this may require moving (a situation I -- and anyone doing rescue -- have seen come up again and again). I think it makes more sense to either get a written clarification allowing you to have animals, or find somewhere where this cannot be an issue -- unless you have a place to put Zack and cat for the weeks it might take until you could find a new place. It all seems very, very risky to assume things couldn't change in an instant with you having only days to sort a place for Zack? Such situations are one of the main reasons animals end up in rescue, and for this reason my rescue homing form explicitly asks whether someone is in rental accommodation and if they have landlord permission to have a dog. And if they are renting, I won't home to people unless I can speak to the landlord to verify the dog is acceptable.

WoodHaven
7th September 2006, 12:34 AM
Thanks for clarifying that. When i was searching for a puppy, a local breeder with the highest standards and ethics warned not to just go by AKC registry when evaluating a puppy. She said just because a puppy is eart and eye clinics)-- many of the small akc cavalier clubs also make an efAKC registered doesn't mean he is from a breeder who does regular heart testing etc. Aren't some pet store puppies AKC registered? Please understand i'm not knocking the AKC, i knew that AKC registration did mean something important, i just didn't know what, and i appreciate hearing more specifically what kind of quality control they use. But also, i was told that a buyer of a cavalier could not just go by AKC registry alone in knowing whether the breeding was of the highest quality.

Zack is AKC registered but i don't think his breeder meets the kinds of standards that are considered to be the best. I was told though that when the AKC guy came out to check on the breeders' place and make sure it was up to their quality standards, the guy liked Zack's father so much, he bought him on the spot for a large sum.

What are the requirements for CKCSC registration? I mean, is it required that the parents were registered, or is it more a matter of meeting those criteria you mentioned?

I just mean that i had to get written permission from my apartment landlord, and i was not willing to do that because i didn't want to put the landlord in a position of having to say no to enforce my rental agreement which says no pets, while i knew that if i got a sweet quiet little dog, they would not later kick me out as they are very kind and tentant-supportive, yet still, i wasn't willing to try to get them to put it writing so that they would be forced to say no before i got the dog. After the fact, you can make a case for implied consent if you have the dog long enough. I believe they know about Zack now and have not objected, thank goodness.

At the dog park, i have had many people tell me they were unable to get a rescue dog for the same reason that i didn't attempt it.

I consider these requirements by the rescue organizations to be reasonable, ethical and correct. But i still wanted to have a cavalier.

I did adopt a cat from a rescue once many years ago, and i don't remember being asked to get written permission but i do know that at that apartment, where i used to live, pets were allowed, that's when i got the first cat (from the pound) and then i got the second (from a rescue). As it is, i couldn't keep the second cat because the relationship between the two cats was a terrible disaster.

Anyway, I would always look into getting a rescue animal before buying commercially, and that is what i encountered when looking into rescuing a cavalier. Until i met my first cavalier last year, if i had wanted a dog, which i didn't, i would've gone to the pound to get a dog as in the past. And for the right dog, i would not hesitate to drive two days or fly, to get the dog, if i were able to rescue.


That's good to know. So far, my efforts to find one locally haven't been successful, for heart testing. At one point, i was needing to prove to my pet insurance company that Zack's heart was OK, and i looked at the available low cost clinics and there were none within a couple hundred miles or more of me. At the office of the local cardiologist, Stephen Barnett, they quoted me $500-$600 for an echocardiogram. I live in Los Angeles County and would think that would be a large area to be served.

I'm glad there are people working to get more low cost clinics. Is it possible to target donations for that project?

AKC doesn't have anything to do with quality, testing-- it is just a registry. Having a sire or dam that is an AKC champion means that someone cared enough to have independent people judge their dog as a worthy breeding candidate. This is where the AKC paper can mean something. It has the pedigree of the puppy and shows champions.

Having a CKCSC, USA registered dog means its breeder was a member and is held up to the code of ethics of the club. Again the sire and dam have to be registered - to register the pups. You can get a dog from a reputable registry (KC, IKC, AKC, Canadian KC) and have it registered in the CKCSC also. We did this with our tricolor-- she is KC, AKC and CKCSC registered.

Registries can't make unethical people ethical. Behaving in an ethical manner is a choice-- Pick a breeder who behaves ethically in their lives--they are much more likely to be ethical in all areas.

Texas is a huge state. They have their own AKC Cavalier club
http://www.cavaliersofhouston.org/

Most cavaliers are considered heart clear if they pass a veterinary cardiologists auscilation (a vet spends about 2 minutes with a scope listening for sounds). Cost is about 30 dollars at a CKCSC,USA show. There is usually a show in Dallas, TX-- but this year they seemed to have moved it.

Maxwell&me
7th September 2006, 12:35 AM
Remali,

With all respect, here in Milwaukee County ( Wisconsin for all of you out of the country) they are becomming very popular~ In the Journel every weekend you see more and more backyard breeders putting ad's in the paper....starting about $1400.00~ They have mistakenly confused backyard breeding with actual well breed Pups....Or are trying to portray themselves as something they are not....The last time I called one of these Ad's over a year ago they wanted $1700.00 and had never heard of S.M. or Lux Pat.... :sl*p:

Cavaliers are also popping up locally in Pet Shops...the latest in a shop not far from my house. A very tiny tri girl....whos eyes were infected and who looked as if any minute she would just keel over, terribly upsetting for me and my young girls...this was very obviously a puppy mill dog. It was all I could do not to *pity rescue* the poor girl at $1500.00 ...However Im a firm believer that no dogs should be available at pet stores...and if I had emptied that cage Id be making room for another whos fate might be worse...not to mention making the Cavalier breed profitable for the miller and the Pet Shop so I left in Tears and have never been back to that shop.

( I did see that little gal a few weeks later with a family, turns out my Vet is the Vet they also use....so she is well on the road to recovery...However Im saddened for the family and the health issues I know this little girl will have long term)

I really wish here in the States we could keep this breed a secret~ but words getting out that they are wonderful companion dogs, great with kids and have the personality we all love about them, and as they gain popularity, The well breed Pups are going to go up....and the mill is going to try and get more......*sigh* Im assuming from back yard breeders~ becouse no reputable breeder would ever put a dog in that situation....

Im totally off track here~ I apologise, a well breed dog is worth its weight in gold....Maxwell was from a back yard breeder who at the time I thought was doing things the right way ( Total snow job, I feel so foolish now ) ...Now hes got Lux Pat and thats going to be in the future about $3000.00 not to mention very hard on him and me~ and even though the breeder knows this has happend to more than just Max...others Ive tracked down, continues to breed.

Im doing things very different the second time around~

WoodHaven
7th September 2006, 12:51 AM
Brokers and backyard breeders have learned how to "sell" and they are very convincing. One of the first "breeders" my husband spoke to(over 6 years ago) was an INFAMOUS Indiana breeder. Luckily he asked a few good breeders their opinion and they said" NOOOOOOOO!! don't buy anything from her".
Fewer and fewer dogs in petstores seem to be AKC -- It requires DNA and inspections.

There is a clinic in Cincinnati that does very good work on knees-- they do MANY patellae surgeries and if you are willing to drive it is much less expensive.
Thank goodness Maxwell has you.

Maxwell&me
7th September 2006, 01:09 AM
Sandy, I just want to make sure people REALLY SEE THIS EXCELLENT POINT



Registries can't make unethical people ethical. Behaving in an ethical manner is a choice-- Pick a breeder who behaves ethically in their lives--they are much more likely to be ethical in all areas.


There you really have it......

Remali
7th September 2006, 01:46 AM
Maxwell&me, wow that is great news, it's nice to know that they are catching on here in WI. Maybe because I am up here in "hunting country" where hunting dogs are so popular, that is why I don't see many Cavaliers. Altho, maybe it isn't such great news, because, like you say, there are more and more disreputable breeders out there. I wish that WI had a Cavalier club, if they did I would join it in a heartbeat!

judy
7th September 2006, 01:56 AM
Regarding registries --...There are no significant health or breeding protocols that the US clubs follow. No club in the US, Ireland or the UK requires any sort of health testing for example (only the Swedish club does, to my knowledge; their heart protocol is listed in the health part of the Library here and is very stringent, requiring a heart clearance on parents every 8 months for puppies to get club registration),...

I think that's awesome. Either something like that is needed or i don't see how the breed is going to become pure of the problem of dogs with MVD etc being bred. Sweden has good public health care for humans, i am told. I wonder if the state contributes to health care funding for animals. I say this because of the expense that's been mentioned here, for breeders to do this kind of ongoing health testing. I wonder how the Swedish clubs can require this of breeders, how can the breeders who register afford this?

WoodHaven
7th September 2006, 02:01 AM
Maxwell&me, wow that is great news, it's nice to know that they are catching on here in WI. Maybe because I am up here in "hunting country" where hunting dogs are so popular, that is why I don't see many Cavaliers. Altho, maybe it isn't such great news, because, like you say, there are more and more disreputable breeders out there. I wish that WI had a Cavalier club, if they did I would join it in a heartbeat!

You asked for it--
http://www.ckcscsw.org/Page1-CKCSCSW.asp

Here is a new akc cavalier club

Remali
7th September 2006, 02:06 AM
Oh WOW!! Thank you Sandy!! I've done countless searches online for a WI club and I never found one! Woo hoo!!!!!! :D

WoodHaven
7th September 2006, 02:14 AM
They had a name change,,, that is why it took so long for me to find it. I know the people who started it- that made it much easier. There are some very good breeders in that club.
You can't breed out all the problems of the purebred dog-- In lowering the incidence of one issue you can raise another. Cavaliers as a whole don't have a lot of inherited issues-- some of the ones they have are major. Mitral valve disease is common in small dogs-- just like heart problems are VERY common in giant dogs. Early onset mvd is what is nasty in cavaliers.

Jen
7th September 2006, 03:00 AM
Judy as far as I have seen a club health clinic would not be doing echocardiograms -- just ausculation. So you'd need to pay for that kind of health exam anyway.

Don;t you still feel it is very risky to take in animals on a lease saying no animals -- I think you still have to assume it may become an issue and need a contingency plan to avoid a potential crisis situation. One of the problems is that it isn't just the landlord or management company -- it is what other tenants think and do as well. If other tenants start to take in animals, or complain, there may be a crackdown at any time and this may require moving (a situation I -- and anyone doing rescue -- have seen come up again and again). I think it makes more sense to either get a written clarification allowing you to have animals, or find somewhere where this cannot be an issue -- unless you have a place to put Zack and cat for the weeks it might take until you could find a new place. It all seems very, very risky to assume things couldn't change in an instant with you having only days to sort a place for Zack? Such situations are one of the main reasons animals end up in rescue, and for this reason my rescue homing form explicitly asks whether someone is in rental accommodation and if they have landlord permission to have a dog. And if they are renting, I won't home to people unless I can speak to the landlord to verify the dog is acceptable.

I have to echo this opinion as it's very concerning that you would take in a dog when the lease clearly states that they are not allowed. With that, you really have no grounds to argue your "case". Plus, if you say that they are "very kind and tenant-supportive" taking advantage of that could end up in being evicted, especially, as Karlin mentioned, if more and more people take advantage of them like this. Both of my dogs were rescues, and the majority of dogs, in the US anyway, are from situations such as this. It's disheartening, to say the least.

Cathy T
7th September 2006, 03:07 AM
I recently had a call from a woman who was heartbroken because she had to give up one of her Cavaliers. She had one and bought one for her daughter, the daughter couldn't keep it, so she took it. Her association only allows 1 dog so she either sells her house and moves or give up one of her dogs.

judy
7th September 2006, 05:54 AM
Judy ...
Don;t you still feel it is very risky to take in animals on a lease saying no animals -- I think you still have to assume it may become an issue and need a contingency plan to avoid a potential crisis situation. One of the problems is that it isn't just the landlord or management company -- it is what other tenants think and do as well. If other tenants start to take in animals, or complain, there may be a crackdown at any time and this may require moving (a situation I -- and anyone doing rescue -- have seen come up again and again). I think it makes more sense to either get a written clarification allowing you to have animals, or find somewhere where this cannot be an issue -- unless you have a place to put Zack and cat for the weeks it might take until you could find a new place. It all seems very, very risky to assume things couldn't change in an instant with you having only days to sort a place for Zack? Such situations are one of the main reasons animals end up in rescue, and for this reason my rescue homing form explicitly asks whether someone is in rental accommodation and if they have landlord permission to have a dog. And if they are renting, I won't home to people unless I can speak to the landlord to verify the dog is acceptable.

Gosh Karlin, you must've witnessed some really heartbreaking situations in your work with rescue.

My situation is fortunately not so dire. It would take a lot of time to go into all the details, but it has to do with my particular situation. Not every situation is alike. Where i am, there is no chance of a sudden crackdown or of things changing in an instant. This is because of the particulars of my city as well as my personal situation.

I didn't take the choice of getting a dog lightly. I did once get a dog on impulse since i've lived here, about 12 years ago, and had the dog about 3 days before i realized i had been nuts to think i could do it. It was so painful to give the dog back even after only 3 days, i would never want to go through that again. But things are different now. Circumstances are different.

I completely agree with the rule of rescue agencies requiring the permission of apartment owners. It's a necessary and sensible rule.

Life is not always black and white though.

I will say a couple of things.

For one thing, if i should lose this apartment and have to move, either my daughter or my mother could keep Zack indefinitely. And if i were to lose this apartment, i could live with my mom. In fact, i would do that. She owns her home, and as she gets older, she would benefit from someone living with her. She'd also benefit from Zack's influence. Old age can get a bit lonely and depressing sometimes as friends die off and abilities are lost.

Hopefully that will reassure you about Zack, and that I am not so irresponsible and foolish in taking him into my life as it may at first seem.

Years ago, I contacted my city's rent board about this issue, the rent board is a government agency that represents and protects renters rights. (my city is mostly tenants) i had to research this when the former manager, a rather bitter spiteful person, threatened to evict me just for putting a bowl of food out for a stray cat that visited our backyard--he didn't know about Fluffy (and how i came to have Fluffy here despite the rental agreement is a long story which i won't go into, but i think to judge the situation without knowing it would be misguided). The landlord never did find out about Fluffy over about 10 years that i was here until he died. The current managers don't live at the building but the former one did.

Anyway, i contacted the rent board about Fluffy after i was threatned for feeding a stray cat, and was told that courts had been ruling that despite rental agreements to the contrary, if a tenant has had a pet a certain amount of time, then this constitutes implied consent to have that pet, and landlords can't just suddenly use a pet to evict tenants after the pet has been there for years. I got considerable reassurance about this, and also assurance that the rent board helps tenants with these cases. However, it's not something i would want to go through, and there would be legal expenses. But never the less, one may win one's case and keep one's home.

Then recently i met a woman at the dog park who lives in a large apartment building on the beach where pets are not allowed, but she was advised that the law alllows people to have pets despite rental agreements to the contrary if a therapist or doctor documents that the pet is therapeutic for that person. this woman got such a letter from a therapist and got the OK to have her dog at the apartment. She has never been in therapy before or since and doesn't have any disability or diagnosed condition. She said it wasn't a big deal. i got the name of the therapist.

I don't know what the circumstances are in your jurisdiction, but you might want to look into this and find out if there are similar laws or practices where you are (implied consent and medical justifications overriding rental contracts), and if so, you could advise people who are told they have to give up either their home or their pets. It might make all the difference to be informed about this. Or, maybe this is just something in my local area, not applicable elsewhere.

As for my trying to get written clarification that it's OK to have my pets, i think at this point, that would be ill-advisedly risky and irresponsible of me, asking for trouble, because i currently have a stable and apparently secure situation, whereas if i ask the manager to take a position in writing, i put him in a position where other tenants could claim discrimination unless he allowed everyone to do it (unless i got a therapist's letter), and i would risk destabilizing an otherwise normalized situation and losing my home. So thanks for the suggestion, but i think it would not be the most prudent course of action. And as to your other suggestion, giving up this place and getting one that allows pets is something i can do when and if a problem arises. And as i said, i can move in wiht my mom if needed.

So as i said, each situation is different and mine is copacetic :) i got it covered.
thanks for your concern.

judy
7th September 2006, 09:06 AM
Here's a news item from Apartment Age magazine from 2004

http://www.aagla.org/mags-2001/nov04.pdf

"Orange County Woman Settles Therapy
Pet Lawsuit For $185,000
An Orange County woman received a $185,000
settlement from her landlord’s insurance company
to settle her lawsuit claiming the apartment
building’s no pet clause did not permit her to have
a therapy animal in violation of the federal Fair
Housing Act.
This is a hot button issue with renters and owners
and sometimes condo owners, debating what
constitutes a disability that would allow the occu-
pant to have a “therapy animal” under federal law
even if building rules and regulations prohibit pets.
For example, it’s generally easy to determine if
someone has a physical disability, such as blindness,
and truly requires a service animal. It’s an entirely
different issue determining if someone is depressed
and is prescribed a pet for that depression.
The attorney representing the tenant claimed that
the law is well established that people with dis-
abilities can have an animal, and that landlords must
make reasonable accommodations for people with
disabilities, including having a pet where there is
a no pet provision.
The landlord’s attorney said there is no admis-
sion of liability or wrongdoing in the settlement
agreement. The landlord entered mediation because
his insurer wanted to settle the matter, rather than
going to court against a sympathetic plaintiff.
The tenant’s doctors prescribed a therapy ani-
mal for emotional support, and the tenant acquired
a poodle in 2001. In 2002, the landlord notified
the tenant the dog violated the rules and regula-
tions and either the dog or the tenant would need
to move.
The tenant, believing that the owner was bark-
ing up the wrong tree, filed a complaint with the
Orange County Fair Housing Council, which brought
the matter to the attention of the U.S. De-
partment of Housing and Urban Development"

The following is from this link
http://www.tenant.net/Rights/pets.html
I think that any person faced with having to choose between their home and their pet should know about these laws

This is just the first part of the detailed article in the example of New York:

"So you want to keep a pet, but your lease has a "No Pet" Clause
by Karen Copeland, Esq.

Defenses to a holdover proceeding based upon the harboring of a pet in violation of a "No Pet" lease provision.

Two types of laws give an individual tenant, renter or cooperative shareholder the right to keep a pet, even if there is a "no pet" provision in the proprietary lease, occupancy agreement, house rules, or lease.

The first, and most widely known types of laws are municipal or local "Pet Laws" which deem that any such "no pet" provision is waived for the duration of the tenancy if the landlord fails to enforce the provision by commencing an action or proceeding within three months of the tenant's open and notorious harboring of the pet.

The second category of laws which would enable a tenant to keep a pet in spite of a "no pet" rule are the federal state, and local laws which prohibit discrimination against the disabled. Such laws mandate that a housing provider grant a "reasonable accommodation" necessary for a disabled person to "use and enjoy" his or her home.

Recent developments in each type of law have enabled many individuals to keep pets, even in the face of considerable opposition by Boards and neighbors. While individual co-op boards and landlords may be within their rights to enact and enforce a "no pet" clause, such prohibitions fail in the face of superseding laws which give tenants the right to keep pets in their homes under certain circumstances, which are discussed here."

judy
7th September 2006, 09:09 AM
I recently had a call from a woman who was heartbroken because she had to give up one of her Cavaliers. She had one and bought one for her daughter, the daughter couldn't keep it, so she took it. Her association only allows 1 dog so she either sells her house and moves or give up one of her dogs.

Cathy, did she have both dogs for more than three months with the knowledge of the association? If so, she might be legally entitled to keep both dogs. Knowing how important it must be to her, maybe she would want to look into her rights according to the law.

judy
7th September 2006, 09:05 PM
Cathy, I just saw this at
http://www.tenantslegalcenter.com/html/leases.html

According to this (i dont know what year it is), the law says people in condos are entitled to "at least one pet.." post 2001. Your friend might be interested in this. Cavaliers are generally such easy harmless dogs. I wish that housing rules rather than prohibitting pets, would prohibit *nuisance* pets, and only evict pets if they were a nuisance, as with uncontrolled barking or biting or damaging property, and that pets who were harmless would be allowed.

Here is something i read on one site about renting (see below for summary of the law i referred to above)

""Dogs are welcome in this apartment. I never had a dog that smoked in bed and set fire to the building. I never had a dog who played music or the TV too loudly. I never had a dog get drunk and knock holes in the walls. So if your dog can vouch for you, you're welcome too."
http://rental-housing.com/rental/pets.htm

PET LAW
In California, a mobile home park may not refuse permission to a tenant to have "at least one pet within the park, subject to
reasonable rules and regulations of the park". Also, a condominium or "common interest development" project may not refuse an owner the right to have "at least one pet within the development, subject to the reasonable rules and regulations of the association.." These new rules only apply, however, to leases or common interest documents (e.g. C.C.& R.'s) executed, modified or amended after 1/1/01) Also, if an animal is a service or medically necessary "companion" animal, it is not a "pet" and is therefore exempt from "no pet" lease restrictions.

California law for San Diego is applied in these pages. Such laws may or may not be applicable in other jurisdictions. The information provided herein is of a general nature and is not intended to be taken as specific legal advice. For legal advice in a particular situation, promptly consult with an appropriate attorney.

http://www.tenantslegalcenter.com/html/leases.html

Remali
10th September 2006, 03:20 AM
I sure wish that where I lived would adopt the same rules/laws as Santa Monica, I think that is so wonderful! I rent, and when I got my dogs I already knew that dogs were allowed in my building (just have to pay an extra fee each month to have the pets). But, if I ever had to make a choice between being evicted due to a pet, or giving up the pet and being able to stay.....I would keep my pet and I would move. Of that I am certain. I would rather die than give up any of my pets, even if it meant that I had to move to another town nearby, or whatever I had to do, my pets stay with me forever. I pay an extra $75 a month to have my pets here ($25 for each animal), but to me it's worth it, I couldn't live without 'em.

Bruce H
10th September 2006, 11:01 AM
Gee, maybe I need to re-think my pet policy :shock:

I allow pets in my 2 duplexes, 1 dog or 1 cat, maximum of 40#. I am flexible on the 40# max. All I require is an additional pet deposit. And do you know I only ever had a problem once and it was a cat that didn't get the concept of a litter box.

I mean, how could I NOT allow pets, given my hobby?

MishathePooh
10th September 2006, 02:02 PM
I don't mind that Cavaliers are so expensive, although I really get ticked when good breeders go greedy and their dogs become poorly bred for 2000$/pup. I have seen this issue become rampant in midwest/northeast US and I get so angry about it.

When I bought Misha 10 years ago, most of the Cavaliers I saw were at least decently bred and you didn't see Cavaliers in pet stores. Speaking of registry, AKC registry just makes people more unethical because after the Cavalier became a recognized breed in the US, even responsible breeders turned sour just to make the extra buck (or thousand bucks as it may be) for their AKC dogs.

WoodHaven
10th September 2006, 03:57 PM
I don't mind that Cavaliers are so expensive, although I really get ticked when good breeders go greedy and their dogs become poorly bred for 2000$/pup. I have seen this issue become rampant in midwest/northeast US and I get so angry about it.

When I bought Misha 10 years ago, most of the Cavaliers I saw were at least decently bred and you didn't see Cavaliers in pet stores. Speaking of registry, AKC registry just makes people more unethical because after the Cavalier became a recognized breed in the US, even responsible breeders turned sour just to make the extra buck (or thousand bucks as it may be) for their AKC dogs.

OK, maybe I am slow (or need more coffee) I don't understand "AKC registry just makes people more unethical"?
Well, I must go-- off to a show (in the rain)-- I don't plan on doing well today -- the bred by exhibitor class in bitches was very competitive. The judge yesterday stopped us after judging and told us it was a joy to judge such a nice class- and that they all were very nice.

Mary
10th September 2006, 04:02 PM
Good luck Sandy! Hope your class goes well.

Karlin
10th September 2006, 04:19 PM
Yes, good luck Sandy!

I would be baffled why any good breeder would 'go bad'... I know of a couple, and a couple only, of situations where people who had been recognised as very good breeders with good lines became... shall we say less interested in making sure the dogs were bred for all the right reasons and with the right amopunt of care. And these are very rare situations.

But I firmly can say this has had nothing to do with club registries (just as the department of motor vehicles isn;t responsible for bad drivers simply because they issue them a license for passing some basic testing). It has to do with people exploiting the breed. All registries can also be exploited and hence a proper registration is ONLY the very start of the process when seeking a good breeder. Registration indicates nothing about the quality of a breeder, a dog, or anything else -- this takes research, legwork, and time.

I repeat again that I would never, ever, ever home either a dog or a cat to someone in rented accommodation without talking to the landlord and I explicitly ask about this in homing applications for a very good reason. People lie about the policies in their accommodation and the end result is -- a crisis situation for dog, cat, renter, and on a regular basis, rescues and shelters who end up having to take these anuimals in. I can guarantee you that anyone working in a shelter or rescue, as well as every vet, hears as the number two excuse after "Rover/Fluffy really needs someone who can give him more time", the sentence "My landlord found out I have Rover/Fluffy and says they have to be rehomed or put down today or I have to move."

The caution against homing to renters has sadly a very sound base. And also sadly I do not trust people to tell me the truth when saying everything is fine with their landlord. First off, once friendly landlord can decide it is time to draw a line and all animals are out. Also other tenants can and do complain causing problems not anticipated. And the main reason: I have seen too many healthy animals of all ages, all breeds end up with the needle due to this excuse -- including a cavalier where the person wouldn't even wait a couple of hours for me to collect the dog into rescue.

judy
10th September 2006, 06:19 PM
I sure wish that where I lived would adopt the same rules/laws as Santa Monica, I think that is so wonderful!

This conversation and looking into this subject has led me to believe that people everywhere may have these rights but not know about them. It would've never occurred to me, for example, to get a letter from a therapist documenting that i need my dog for emotional support, except for the fluke that i was chatting with a lady at the dog park and she happened to mention that she was able to do this at her building.

And if my former apartment manager hadn't threatened to evict me for putting a bowl outside for a stray cat, i would've known nothing about the court rulings that if a landlord knowingly allows pets for a long enough time, they can't just suddenly enforce a no pet clause in a rental agreement. They can lose and they can be sued for unlawful eviction.

I'm not saying any of these are good solutions, or that they will always work. No one wants to end up having a legal battle. But when you are desperate to save your home and your loved one, those are options perhaps more people should know about, and i hope rescue organizations are aware of them so that they can advise people accordingly, to avoid the need of a rescue. It's tragic to think that people may give up their pets or their homes because they are not aware of the existing options.

The best solution is what you have and what Bruce talks about--renters being allowed to pay a deposit or fee to cover potential pet damages, or just as an extra surcharge because you have another 'person' living there. This is a humane solution. This is not just a matter of dollars and cents. This is peoples' lives, peoples' hearts, the quality of peoples' lives and the quality of lives for animals who will be loved by them.

It makes me sad to think of loving people who would not be allowed to provide and share love with an animal because they simply can't afford their own home and landlords forbid pets. As we all know, there is a gross overpopulation of companion animals, and so many people who would love to give them homes and save a proportion of them, but are forebidden to do it.

I surely understand landlords' wishes to protect their property, their investment, and to have a peaceful comfortable environment for all their tenants, and some tenants don't like animals. But i think the most reasonable solution is to strictly enforce rules requiring good behavior by pets and humans, and only to evict pets who are causing a nuisance, and not to forbid all pets because of the except where one causes a problem (see Bruce's example--his experience of minimal problems with pets is normal).

Housing is not a luxury item, everyone needs it. That's partly why courts rule in favor of tenants in many cases--you are talking about peoples' lives here, this is not just a matter of cold calculation without consideration of love and need for companionship, as you make so clear in what you say.


I rent, and when I got my dogs I already knew that dogs were allowed in my building (just have to pay an extra fee each month to have the pets). But, if I ever had to make a choice between being evicted due to a pet, or giving up the pet and being able to stay.....I would keep my pet and I would move. Of that I am certain. I would rather die than give up any of my pets, even if it meant that I had to move to another town nearby, or whatever I had to do, my pets stay with me forever. I pay an extra $75 a month to have my pets here ($25 for each animal), but to me it's worth it, I couldn't live without 'em.

judy
10th September 2006, 06:23 PM
Gee, maybe I need to re-think my pet policy :shock:

I allow pets in my 2 duplexes, 1 dog or 1 cat, maximum of 40#. I am flexible on the 40# max. All I require is an additional pet deposit. And do you know I only ever had a problem once and it was a cat that didn't get the concept of a litter box.

I mean, how could I NOT allow pets, given my hobby?


:flwr: bless you.
what do you mean by #40--i'm not clear about what you're referring to.

WoodHaven
10th September 2006, 06:45 PM
Gee, maybe I need to re-think my pet policy :shock:

I allow pets in my 2 duplexes, 1 dog or 1 cat, maximum of 40#. I am flexible on the 40# max. All I require is an additional pet deposit. And do you know I only ever had a problem once and it was a cat that didn't get the concept of a litter box.

I mean, how could I NOT allow pets, given my hobby?


:flwr: bless you.
what do you mean by #40--i'm not clear about what you're referring to. Forty pounds weight limit -- which is generous-- many have a 25 pound limit.

judy
10th September 2006, 06:54 PM
...Speaking of registry, AKC registry just makes people more unethical because after the Cavalier became a recognized breed in the US, even responsible breeders turned sour just to make the extra buck (or thousand bucks as it may be) for their AKC dogs.


Since becoming so interested in cavaliers, i've encountered so many wonderful ethical people who breed cavaliers because of a love of them, and not for the money, and i'm glad there are people out there who can afford to do it and who make the financial sacrifices it takes because they love doing it. I know that many breeders make sacrifices, putting their resources, emotional and financial, into breeding and finding loving homes for cavaliers, because it brings them happiness, people who would always take a financial loss if that were necessary to do what's best for a dog. This is easy for me to understand. I could easily see myself doing it, if my circumstances were appropriate.

I am wondering how various people have come to breeding cavaliers, people who do it for the love of it, what the story behind it has been, and what evolution of their knowedge and practices has been involved.

Are there good ethical breeders who, when they first started out, just loved dogs and wanted to help more people to have such wonderful dogs, and weren't trying to make money, yet at the same time, didn't cover all the bases with health testing, but over time learned about the importance of this, and developed into great breeders? or do all good cavalier breeders start out doing all the right things from the beginning?

Misha's mom talks about good breeders who went bad. I'm wondering if there are also breeders who once didn't realize board certified health testing was important, perhaps just having their dogs checked by their regular vet, but later became convinced of the need for it, and added this to their program--perhaps doing it, as Karlin says, as the result of puppy buyers asking for it. And also, as a result of going to shows and conventions and congregating with other breeders, and learning from them.

judy
10th September 2006, 06:57 PM
Well, I must go-- off to a show (in the rain)-- I don't plan on doing well today -- the bred by exhibitor class in bitches was very competitive. The judge yesterday stopped us after judging and told us it was a joy to judge such a nice class- and that they all were very nice.

That is a nice thing to hear! and well deserved of course! Good luck Sandy. i hope you do well, and hope you enjoy day regardless! Go WoodHaven!!

WoodHaven
10th September 2006, 07:21 PM
Since becoming so interested in cavaliers, i've encountered so many wonderful ethical people who breed cavaliers because of a love of them, and not for the money, and i'm glad there are people out there who can afford to do it and who make the financial sacrifices it takes because they love doing it. I know that many breeders make sacrifices, putting their resources, emotional and financial, into breeding and finding loving homes for cavaliers, because it brings them happiness, people who would always take a financial loss if that were necessary to do what's best for a dog. This is easy for me to understand. I could easily see myself doing it, if my circumstances were appropriate.

I am wondering how various people have come to breeding cavaliers, people who do it for the love of it, what the story behind it has been, and what evolution of their knowedge and practices has been involved.

Are there good ethical breeders who, when they first started out, just loved dogs and wanted to help more people to have such wonderful dogs, and weren't trying to make money, yet at the same time, didn't cover all the bases with health testing, but over time learned about the importance of this, and developed into great breeders? or do all good cavalier breeders start out doing all the right things from the beginning?

Misha's mom talks about good breeders who went bad. I'm wondering if there are also breeders who once didn't realize board certified health testing was important, perhaps just having their dogs checked by their regular vet, but later became convinced of the need for it, and added this to their program--perhaps doing it, as Karlin says, as the result of puppy buyers asking for it. And also, as a result of going to shows and conventions and congregating with other breeders, and learning from them.

Most breeders get into breeding because they fell for the breed. Our first was a 36th birthday present from my husband. I "discovered" the breed and hubby said they were soooo expensive. I didn't have to say another word-- he reseached for a longggg time and found a reputable breeder with a litter due soon. I decided that the first cavalier needed a buddy and we found another more local reputable breeder. Then we went to a fun match (got hooked)and decided to show dogs-- We have very good mentors-- so we have always believed in health testing.

Why would the AKC recognition make good breeders go bad. MOST of the public doesn't know the difference between the Continental Kennel Club (or a half dozen others) and the American Kennel Club.... Why would a Bad breeder who just wants just $$$$$$ bother to deal with the AKC at all?? Deal with the DNA (for frequent used sires) inspections etc...

There are many signs of a bad breeder vs better breeder -- MANY and still most of the public misses the cues.

I breed for ME-- I pick the best sire for my pups-- even if it means spending a week on the road (I DON'T SHIP). I want healthy pups (again who wants sick or disabled ones if you are breeding for yourself) so we health test-- again and again and again. The buyers opinions means nothing to me. I have turned down offers of many times the going rate for a CAVALIER-- because no one can buy me. I HATE HOMING pups-- I know the vets will push yearly shots and most pet owners are easily swayed. I don't like overdoing toxins and poisons either(vets make a LOT of money pushing these) and I feed top rated food with fresh foods and some raw. Most pet owners can't or won't do this (some do-- I am probably preaching to the choir here tho--lol).

MishathePooh
10th September 2006, 08:10 PM
Yikes, I suppose I didn't word that right. What I meant was that AKC *recognition* of the breed (1996) created problems. Cavaliers seemed to become popular and *very* sellable in America ONLY after AKC recognition. Before that, they were a rare breed with some devoted followers/lovers. I doubt their popularity would have increased so much if they hadn't been recognized as an official breed.

AKC registry doesn't do much one way or another for the breed.

Remali
10th September 2006, 08:25 PM
Good point Judy, like you said, perhaps a lot of people don't realize their renter's/tenant's rights. It would be a very good thing to look into, I plan on checking into it.

And another great point was bought up by WoodHaven as well, the vast majority of vets pushing shots. I realize shots are necessary, but I do also think that most vets overdo it on the vaccinations, and I for one do not like to load up my dogs on too many shots, same with my horse too, I only get what is required and necessary, I've seen too many animals given too many vaccinations (sometimes all at once for Pete's sake) and then the animal gets ill.

Bruce H
10th September 2006, 09:08 PM
How Kris and I got into this addiction we call showing and breeding:

It all started when Kris wanted to get a dog. I was not a big fan of dogs :yikes and was against it. But I finally gave in and Kris started researching dogs. She got it narrowed down to Cavaliers and Pugs; didn't matter to me, like I said I didn't much care for dogs; it was going to be her dog and her responsibility.

She finally decided on a Cavalier. Almost a year later she announced she had found a puppy; and I almost passed out when I found out what it was going to cost. I didn't think a dog could cost that much! She brought that little puppy home (Penny) and I had to admit it really was a cute little thing. Two weeks later we went camping up north for a week and that was when I fell in love with Penny and this breed.

When Penny was 6 months old Kris decided she wanted to try showing, something she had wanted to do all her life. She entered Penny in a show not far from here and showed Penny. No points but she met a very nice breeder that helped her. One thing lead to another and we decided to try breeding Penny with the help of that breeder. At 2 years old, Penny had her first puppy; had to have a c-section because the puppy was a single and too big for a normal delivery. Kris was all set to sell that puppy, but after a month of caring for that puppy (our Kate), I just couldn't let it go.

So, that's how we got started. We learned about the importance of testing, health, selecting the right studs, etc., etc. from our mentor and the dozens of other breeders that we got to know while showing Penny. Those contacts we made back then and the ones we make now have been invaluable in helping us become (we think) a responsible breeder. That's why I feel very strongly that if a person wants to breed, they should be showing. Showing will enable you to meet and get help from people who have the experience and the knowledge to do what is right for the breed. I can only wonder where we would be now if we had just decided to start breeding with no help from our mentor or the other breeders who have helped us along the way.

Maxxs_Mummy
10th September 2006, 10:53 PM
Sandy,

Can I just say that you sound like the ideal breeder :D . You also sound just like my breeder 'Maxx's first human Mummy' - she also only breeds for HER & has in the past. turned down mega bucks for her puppies because she didn't feel that the people were right.

Maxx is now 7 and I am still in regular contact with her. We were both disappointed when Maxx's testicle didn't drop and I had to have him neutered quite young. She offered me another pup but I'd already fallen in love with him by then!

This wonderful lady amazes me, she has so many well kept dogs and still finds time to help others with theirs. In the last year she has lost her Mother and her sister and has also taken in their Cavaliers too.

I offered to help her out and have some of the older ones for her but she wouldn't hear of it. Most of them have now retired from the show ring but she'd never dream of rehoming them, she says it would be like rehoming a child because it didn't do well at schooll :lol:

I think this is why it upset me so much when one of her girls lost the pups she was expecting last year. She was only having a litter because she wanted a youngster to show and I had also nagged her that I wanted another baby too :(

It's so refreshing to know of others who only breed because they themselves want another - total contrast to those evil *****s who churn out puppies and don't give a darn about the health of any of the parties concerned :x

WoodHaven
10th September 2006, 11:19 PM
I try <lol> and thanks. I am always learning. There are many good breeders out there. There are many more that just seem to be mass marketing pets.

Maxwell&me
10th September 2006, 11:42 PM
Most breeders get into breeding because they fell for the breed. Our first was a 36th birthday present from my husband. I "discovered" the breed and hubby said they were soooo expensive. I didn't have to say another word-- he reseached for a longggg time and found a reputable breeder with a litter due soon. I decided that the first cavalier needed a buddy and we found another more local reputable breeder. Then we went to a fun match (got hooked)and decided to show dogs-- We have very good mentors-- so we have always believed in health testing.

Oh crap Sandy~ I think I may be following in your footsteps!
Ugghhh~ You still have to come up for that ATV ride! :lol:

WoodHaven
11th September 2006, 12:20 AM
Most breeders get into breeding because they fell for the breed. Our first was a 36th birthday present from my husband. I "discovered" the breed and hubby said they were soooo expensive. I didn't have to say another word-- he reseached for a longggg time and found a reputable breeder with a litter due soon. I decided that the first cavalier needed a buddy and we found another more local reputable breeder. Then we went to a fun match (got hooked)and decided to show dogs-- We have very good mentors-- so we have always believed in health testing.

Oh crap Sandy~ I think I may be following in your footsteps!
Ugghhh~ You still have to come up for that ATV ride! :lol:

This seems to be the way most cavalier enthusiasts get started. Especially when the time is right in their lives. With me-- it was empty nest syndrome. It has been over a year since I even had any time to visit with my parents. :oops:

Karlin
12th September 2006, 03:27 PM
(some do-- I am probably preaching to the choir here tho--lol).

But we're a choir that likes hearing the preaching! 8)

I've enjoyed hearing how some of the breeders here got into showing and breeding.

I think most people looking for a pet cavalier (or any breed) start from a point of believing a breeder is a breeder and have no idea there are many that breed indiscriminately and/or keep dogs in appalling conditions or at best -- very sad and unstimulating environments -- the main point being to produce puppies to sell. All you need to do is see how some keep the dogs in cages, or in leaky, muddy farm outbuildings, or 60 of them in a residential house, to realise that there are ways to breed, and ways to breed. But for most people the reality of commercial breeding is just too unbelievable -- we assume everyone is caring and dedicated to the breed. Unethical breeders exploit that and the whole issue of registrations by implying the good registries are 'only for professional show people' or are 'snooty' when the reality is these registries know they are meaningless and prey on the uninformed - uneducated breeders or pet owners -- by taking their money for trash registrations.

The more I read and talk to breeders, geneticists, neurologists and vets, the more I realise that the thing about breeding purebred dogs is that you are always dealing with vastly reduced gene pools and thus real knowledge and commitment is needed from a breeder to pick the right dogs with the right pedigrees to achieve the best in health first and foremost, and conformation and temperament. It's the kind of knowledge an aspiring breeder can get from being around the breed and other breeders and show people, but not from reading on the internet, or just liking the breed and reading a few books, and so forth. My own participation on several cavalier boards and email lists is a constant reminder of how much there is to know and how so much knowledge resides with good breeders. But even the most experienced clearly keep on learning new things and absorbing different perspectives and of course, as dogs are living, changing, evolving animals, nothing remains static either, so there's always plenty to take in.

What I've learned above all -- especially from working around several breed rescues -- is that breeding carries profound responsibilities not just to the individual dogs you breed and their puppies, but to the breed as a whole, for in essence as a breeder you play God by forcing matches and every time, choosing one set of genes over another. If you aren't ethical -- are randomly breeding for fun and/or profit or 'just for puppies for friends' or 'to make back the cost of my dog' or 'to have another just like Rover' -- then your choices will negatively impact the breed for generations to come because some of those owners will go on to breed their dogs and so on and so on. The knock on implications of not knowing about genetics, health issues and pedigrees are huge. MVD is proof of that.

Kdemars
12th September 2006, 07:31 PM
I just picked up my little baby girl (Ella) on Sunday. :D She was almost $2,000 but I tell you what - meeting the breeder and seeing all that she put into to these little ones made her worth every penny of it. They actually have an entire mother-in-law suit devoted to their cavs and plenty of land that the dogs are free to play on. Getting a copy of all the health certifications for the mother and father really does make me feel good and like it was money well spent. Not to mention watching the breeder's eyes water as we were leaving let me know that she really loves these guys and cared for them. My vet was more than impressed with the folder of information that my breeder gave me to give to the vet - she actually asked for her number for future reference b/c she thought she was so responsible. This is a link to the breeder that my little-bit came from if someone is looking for a good breeder in the states.

Edited by Karlin to remove link to breeder.

Cathy T
13th September 2006, 04:13 AM
Sounds like you found a great breeder!! Stay in touch for when you're ready to get your next!!! :D

RoyalT Cavaliers
13th September 2006, 05:11 AM
Health testing, showing is suppose to be used to evaluate your breeding stock, many breeders do not take part in showing and many do.
We are lucky to even break even on this.
So if someone is doing it correctly you can almost guarantee their is not a big paycheck in it for them. Also remember that we are on call 24/7 forever. Most do not even take vacation but we consider dog shows vacation. :)

Leo and Deana and the RoyalT Gang :l*v:

Karlin
13th September 2006, 10:00 AM
I don't allow links to breeders (this is clearly noted in guidelines to using the board) not least because while one person might recommend a breeder, sometimes an experienced person can see there are problems with a particular breeder. Differences in opinion can cause potentially libellous discussions -- but also can innocently promote a bad breeder. I ask that people discuss individual breeders offline.

What I am going to say next is not going to make you happy because I think you have been badly duped by an unethical breeder (this does not mean your pup isn't adorable and to be cherished but I think it is very important for people to see how some breeders exploit these dogs while making themselves look warm and fuzzy on their websites or when you visit them in person. It will also explain why I absolutely do not want a link on this board, to this particular breeder).

Regardless of whether she gives nice packets of information with her puppies, I am sorry to say that there are quite a few of the standard alarm bells with the breeder and given what she is and what her dogs are like, I fear you significantly overpaid her for the price of the dog (this is a top end price by any measure and shocking for what she is doing and how she is selling and breeding dogs). A similar dog in Ireland would sell for about $200. First off, anyone who is acquiring and selling *complete litters* from Ireland is absolutely not a reputable breeder -- they are a broker, and one of the lower forms of dog-selling life (as is her supposed excellent Irish breeder but more on that below). Believe me these will all be puppy farm bred or backyard bred litters (which can easily get IKC registration simply by breeding from IKC registered dogs -- I could set myself up tomorrow to do this), not from any reputable Irish breeders -- absolutely no reputable IKC breeder would be selling complete litters because they would not need to in the first place, and also because they would be fearful of allowing their own precious litters totally out of sight and control in this way by shipping them to the US. In addition I know the people who are selling your breeder dogs -- they are mass brokers (who likewise have a website full of family pictures and terrible breed examples) and I always suspected they might be selling on dogs to brokers and unethical breeders in the US ... it is useful to have this confirmation that this is so. As a matter of fact I have recently purchased a domain very similar to theirs in Ireland to put up a site that explains much of what I am saying here, to hopefully help people to understand why they should be cautious about certain types of claims made about Irish cavaliers by US or Irish breeders/brokers/puppyfarmers. :badgrin: It means every person who fails to add a single extra letter to their web address will get mine warning against this type of person instead.

Looking at their pedigrees, far from being champion dogs from champion lines from a good Irish breeder, these are all random dogs from many locations, none of them show or reputable breeders in the first generation by any stretch of the imagination. They are bar one that was bred by the Irish broker, all typical puppy farm cavaliers she is buying through the Waterford-based broker. I have never heard of the majority of the breeders or lines in the dog's pedigrees. Even her 'pride and joy' dog on her website has some good dogs a few generations back, as many cavaliers would, but seems to have been trash-bred in most the last two generations -- the dog doesn't even have a kennel afix. Any dog from a good breeder has its kennel afix -- eg Loranka or Glencross -- as you can see looking further back in the pedigree. So these people are not showing their dogs either. The 'pride and joy' dog is not particularly attractive either and is nothing like his (apparent) father, also pictured.

So they also do not at all come from 'the same lines as the imports she is selling' except in the most general sense that they are brokered cavaliers coming off Irish puppy farms or from trash backyard breeders. You will note most of the dogs just have a single name -- a sure sign of an amateur or puppy farm breeder (though it is very useful to us working in animal welfare over here to know which Irish breeders are shipping mass litters to this woman as I can get addresses off these IKC registrations and check them out with the ISPCA). None of these dogs will have been bred for health which adds to how meaningless health clearances are for these dogs in terms of their hearts. These are randomly bred dogs with no regard for health ever in several generations of their backgrounds.

And in addition, Jessie and Missy of her 'champion imports' for example are simply awful breed examples. Almost any cavalier will have '41 champions' if you go back 7 generations simply because they are all so closely related and she will know this if she is a decent breeder (and good breeders also never make such silly claims because they know this is meaningless). There are plenty of trash Irish and UK breeders who get hold of a couple of dogs from good lines and then can make such claims of champion backgrounds.

She is making nonsense claims which could be called lies, in several places, as well. First off she says her Irish imports go thru '2 health screenings' before she even gets them. This too is meaningless!! I can guarantee you that this means the breeder has to give them a cursory clearance with vets -- who very often never check the puppies but just stamp the form over here -- before they can be shipped. They have to be vet OKd for travel and that is it.

She also says the average weight in the US is 23-25 lbs compared to an Irish 12-18 pounds which is utterly ridiculous. The US standard is 13-18lbs. Any dog from a good breeder will generally fall within those weights. I can tell you the AVERAGE cavalier I see here every day in Ireland and in the UK is more like 20-25 lbs as well -- this is what happens to dogs when bred by breeders who do not care about conformation. They go over or undersize, consistently, usually oversize.

She also linkes to the mother of her current litter, her dog Scarlett and this is what really sets off the alarms. SHE IS BREEDING THIS DOG AT TOO YOUNG AN AGE TO BE CONSIDERED SAFELY HEART CLEAR AS BREEDING STOCK. No reputable breeder would be doing this as it puts ALL her puppies at increased risk of early onset MVD!!! According to her own records sent to OFA, this dog was born in mid December 2004. She already has puppies available. That means she was bred at about 1.5 years as she is not even two. That means any heart clearances she is offering are just trash -- almost all cavaliers will be heart clear at age one and a half, which is when she had her tested. More worryingly, she seems to only have tested her in order to be able to claim she was clear for breeding at this way too young age -- as she must have mated her either at that time or perhaps even before bothering with heart testing to have puppies available now from this dog. Any cavalier breeder knows you wait til a minimum age 2.5 to breed. I will wager she does not have heart clearances for the parents of her breeding bitch either as few Irish breeders heart test as is, and certainly not any that are also shipping her full litters to sell -- in which case Scarlett would not be considered safe to breed by the very important heart protocol til AGE FIVE. So any heart guarantees on these puppies from these lines mean nothing.

A pedigree search on her kennel afix as submitted to OFA, brings up not a single connected dog on the good international cavalier databases. And curiously she did not bother to submit the pedigree of the dog to OFA when submitting her test results, conveniently keeping her background out of the public eye.

Her homing contract too sets off alarms too -- it guarantees puppies are free of MVD until age one!! MVD is a progressive disease -- no cavalier will show signs of it at age 1!! So this too is utterly meaningless and she surely must know it.

In general if I were you I would not refer people to this breeder, ever. I think it is sad that such people get away with charging $2000 for a puppy -- that is shocking.

I know this may be depressing and also seem far too blunt but I work with many people to try and choke off the source of dogs to people who sell them like this, and to raise awareness amongst pet owners that unethical breeders can appear to be ethical by a few tweaks to their wesbite sand she has done this -- while putting in what at best can be described as misleading information and in some cases, deliberate untruths.

I am going to close this thread as I don;t want this breeder discussed further, but people are very welcome to reopen interesting threads of this converation elsewhere in a fresh (and less lengthy!) thread.

Karlin
13th September 2006, 01:21 PM
Hmmm. I have checked the date of birth of Scarlett's puppies and the date of her heart test according to OFA information and can report not only did this breeder breed an underage cavalier but also she bred the dog BEFORE she had her heart checked. This is totally, absolutely unethical.

Incidentally Scarlett's registered name is totally unlknown -- the kennel does not come up on any pedigree or google search which means she is most likely a puppy farm dog herself or backyard bred. Hence she should not have been bred til age 5 minimum. Any heart clearances for her as used for breeding puproses are totally meaningless.

What is really strange is this breeder seems not to even have owned any cavaliers until she bought up ALL the dogs she currently has at around the same time -- all were born around December 2004.

Insta-breeding, in other words. Any breeder should know the heart protocol: not a single one of these dogs should be bred until it is heart cleared in December 2009.