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pippa
15th September 2006, 12:14 AM
Are we allowed to say where our little dogs come from or from what lines. I would love to know if anyone in Ireland or elsewhere has a relative of either of my dogs.

Although I got them from the same kennel Gus belonged to the breeders son-in -law and pippin was bred by the lady herself so they are not related in any way.

Lisa_T
16th September 2006, 12:27 AM
We could stick to the really well known names. I bet you that nearly everyone has a Kindrum in their pooch's pedigree!! :lol: :lol:

Molly's mom
16th September 2006, 05:28 AM
Well, i'll go ahead and start since I just had Molly's Pedigree paper out the other day.

My Molly is:

House of Leighton HRH Molly (US)

Parents------>Just Chubby (IRE) & Mooremannor Hero Lass (IRE)

Grandparents------>
Father's Side: Ballymacad Portwine & My Mollie

Mothers side: Princes-Boy Davey & Paddies Lady

Great Grandparents----->
Fathers Side: Stairways Bucks Fizz of Ballymacad, Ballymacad Magic Ruby & Redrose Blooms.

Mothers Side: Prince of Monroe & Mary President, Boolabawn Sir Oak & Tessa Dahl


With the exception of Molly's parents who are AKC registered, all of the other names say IKC, does that stand for Irish Kennel Club?

estelle
16th September 2006, 09:21 AM
Should some of the names go back to/be the same as? None of mune do :yikes
I am more worried now that this woman we got him from isn't kosha
Here's Charlies pedigree (if that's what it is)!!!!
Sire=Frosty nights
Dam=Lil Springtime Lady
Grandparents (Sire side) Sire=Mr Fix It
Dam=Heavenly Scent
Grandparents (Dam side) Sire=Fagan Fairies
Dam=Vanilla Ice
G.Grandparents Bacardi Blues
Pandoras box
Sweet Marshmallows
Angelica Surprise
Mercedes Melody
Geneveve Wave
Casper Treasures
Crystal Snowflake

Do you think we've been ripped off?

Lisa_T
16th September 2006, 12:29 PM
Holly's pedigree includes the following affixes: Drumadowney, Lyneka, Turretbank, Rheinvelt, Sorata and a host of others I can't remember off the top of my head.

Little ruby's pedigree is similar on the sire's side (Drumadowney Tinky Winky), and the dam's is mostly Charterwood, but there's lots of Sorata in there too, as well as names I don't recognise- Royal Victoria, for example!

From a showing perspective, both have excellent pedigrees for conformation. From a health perspective, Holly's ancestors are often siblings of dogs in the long lived lists, while a number of the ruby's ancestors are actually named as dogs who made it past five without MVD, so hopefully that bodes well.

I saw the breeder yesterday and he was tremendously impressed with how Holly has developed- said she was a fantastic bitch and it was a shame she'd been spayed as he'd have liked to have gotten a litter off her!

And hands up everyone who has Albert(o)? of Kindrum! :D :D I've been reading online pedigrees lately, and the number of dogs who are descended from him are astonishing!

pippa
12th October 2006, 12:50 PM
Gus has a lot of names in his, the ones that appear more often are, Ronnoc,Homerbrent and Chantiz his ancesters all seem to be from great Britain (one of them lived to be over 14 yrs old) including a GB/CH of french desent.

Pippins ancesters are mostly Trenaul and moorfields and they seem to be mostly Irish including a few IR/CH.

Neither of them seem to share any ancestery at all but they are still BROTHERS in every sense of the word.

Charleen
12th October 2006, 01:13 PM
I am listing only the kennels that are shown frequently on my dogs' pedigrees.

Luke & Jolly - River Oak, Turretbank, Sheeba, Lymrey

Pippin & Merry - Rosjestin, Kenmillone, Turretbank, Leelyn, Downsbank, Korraines, Gayela, Oakhaven

pippa
12th October 2006, 01:27 PM
Just found out when checking online that Gus's great grandfather is pippins great ,great, great grandfather! I told them but they don't seem too excited Gus is trying to get ham down from the worktop and Pippin is going asleep. I think its great...... I need to get out more :lol:

merlinsmum
12th October 2006, 02:03 PM
Both mine have heronbank, rheinvelt, granasil and homerbrent as names in their pedigrees.

I don't think we should go ito too much detail like Lisa says as I think its against board rules to say exact breeders.

Claire
12th October 2006, 02:05 PM
Busta has Homerbrent in his line - will bring their certificates in and list them all though.

pippa
12th October 2006, 02:06 PM
Merlins mum, I agree, which is why I only gave the name of the pedigree rather than breeder names. :|

WoodHaven
12th October 2006, 05:06 PM
Merlins mum, I agree, which is why I only gave the name of the pedigree rather than breeder names. :|

The names on the pedigree are suppose to tell "who" bred the dog. That is the who point of having a kennel name. I have a Homerbrent Erica-- that tells the world that M. Coaker bred her. I believe the point of not mentioning names was because people could say negative things and this being a moderated list especially--- legal issues could insue. Sandy

Karlin
12th October 2006, 05:26 PM
Sandy is right -- my issue is only with having any discussion turn into personal comments about breeders, asking for recommendations, offering warnings etc in posts regarding any named breeder or kennel line. I don't mind if people offer the critical comments behind the scenes (eg thru PMs or emails). But not here.

The kennel (pedigree) names reveal the breeder, as Sandy notes. Dogs that don't have kennel prefixes or affixes tend to be the ones to worry about in a pedigree as they typically will indicate backyard breeders (non show breeders who nonetheless have been able to get proper kennel club registration -- which isn't that hard to get if you get your dogs from a registered line). That is why you can NEVER rely simply of the correct (as opposed to bogus) registries as an indication of a quality breeder or line -- though use of the bogus registries ALWAYS indictaes a backyard breeder or puppy mill! More on bogus registries: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=216

This is one way of decoding a breeder website, as to whether they are breeding properly or not. Another way is to run the supposed kennel name prefix or the parent dogs through the online pedigree databases. If not a single dog with that prefix shows up, you are almost certainly again dealing with a BYB. Online databases: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=232

Ronnoc is an Irish not English kennel; Jaspar is a Ronnoc dog. :) Ronnoc dogs are behind many of the Homerbrent, Homeranne and Salador dogs -- they had a very famous stud named Ronnoc True Luck who fathered many puppies, including one all-champion Salador litter.

As an example of the above, try running Ronnoc, Salador or Homerbrent through the online databases and you'll see lots of dogs come up. :)

pippa
12th October 2006, 09:32 PM
Thanks for that Sandy. Should have known that :oops: I actually had known that some names link to breeders but didn't realise thay all do.


Karlin just started this to see if any relatives of my two were on board for a bit of interest for myself,hope I didn't offend or overstep the bounderies by asking!

By the way I did know Ronnoc was Irish Gus's mummy was a Ronnoc but I read a book on cavs written by an english author and she mentioned most of the others were english.

GudrunTheRed
12th October 2006, 10:11 PM
Those pedigree sites are really neat! I just checked some of Chester's relatives on the http://www.cavaliersonline.com site and I couldn't find any info on his parents but his grandparents are in there and there's ton of info on them and several generations back.

Chester's grandfather is an Irish Blenheim named Ch Dark Boyo and here's the page showing the details and his relatives: http://www.cavaliersonline.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=9957&gens=5&db=cavaliers.dbw

There's even a Homerbrent relative back in the 1970's...how cool!

molly+charlies mum
12th October 2006, 11:15 PM
mollys =sire=nakalas dynamite dylon,grandsire =mareve indiana,grand dam =lady chantilly lace ----- dam=magic molly,--grand sire= nakalas dynamite dylon,---grand dam=lucky liah breeder =debbie mackenzie

molly+charlies mum
12th October 2006, 11:36 PM
:? ive just been looking at mollys registration paper and it says the dog lovers registration club uk ltd are there different types as ive seen the green paper for the kennel club and mine is blue,charlie dosent have any papers.....

lorin
12th October 2006, 11:36 PM
Isabella's parents- Lady + the Tramp
Abby's parents- Amber + the Tramp

Karlin
13th October 2006, 12:26 AM
Ronnoc is Connor backward, BTW -- a lot of breeders run their name in reverse in the UK and Ireland. Another famous old Irish kennel was Tnegun -- Nugent backwards.

Pretty much every cavalier will eventually go back to champions and some of the well known English dogs and lines in particular, simply because they are all descended from only 6 or 7 dogs and the breed wasn't really introduced to any degree in the US until the 60s, and then mostly from an initial small range of imported English dogs, according to breed histories.

This is why the gene pool is so narrow, and also why breeding is so tricky with this breed -- because already close relatives were bred together just to develop the breed, that means the potential for genetic negatives in the breed started early on. Many cavaliers continue to be very closely line bred (eg to related dogs, with many of the same dogs appearing in the same line of one dog, and often on both dam and sire sides). The degree of relatedness in a dog -- how many of its ancestors are closely related genetically -- is called a breeding coefficient. The higher the breeding coefficient, the closer the line breeding and the higher the concentration of similar genes and to many minds, the more at risk a cavalier is of having genetic problems show. I think the recommendation is for the breeding coefficient not to be higher than around 20%. Many cavaliers are above 40% :shock:. Many breeders try to lower the breeding coefficient of their dogs by outcrossing to other lines or more distant lineages, so that the same dog isn't in the recent generations of a pedigree for example. In Sweden I believe the national CKCS club forbids close line breeding, eg of siblings or of parents and offspring. Here's more info on breeding coefficients and a link to a pedigree database that also gives coefficients for each dog, if enough information is available:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=233

At the same time, line breeding helps develop a distinct line for a breeder and a skilled breeder knows how best try to carefully select for good qualities while limiting the negative genetic effect this might have. So there's nothing intrinsically wrong with line breeding, but you need to know what you are doing.

All of this is also one of the things to watch for with puppy farm and BYB dogs. What you want are dogs from good lines in the parentage and granparents. Further back, it's not necessarily indicating anything as nearly any backyard-bred cavalier will start to hit well known lines and champions in the great grandparents or further back. Hence in the US, BYBs and brokers for BYB or puppy farm dogs typically claim their dogs are "descended from champion stock" or "descended from imported English/Irish dogs". No reputable breeder makes such claims because the claims are so meaningless.

A reputable breeder will point you to the recent generations, as proof of a strong and thoughtful breeding programme. They will be proud of all the generations but they will not try to claim champions back in the mists of time. :)

After I got my two boys from a reputable breeder I read far more and learnbed far more than I did the first time out. Now, I would be not only looking for the health clearances and the MRI status (for syringomyelia) for the dam and sire, but I'd also be interested in knowing breeding coefficients and looking for low coeficients, and would like to see really good, longlived quality dogs in close generations rather than with lots of intervening generations.

I'd also be looking for skull shapes that might not be considered 'winning' head shapes right now but which I, along with some researchers and breeders, think give a dog a much better chance of not having SM and having plenty of room for its brain. There's no scientific proof for this but I have seen some striking MRIs for affected and clear dogs.

I've been crazy for cavaliers for three years now and have seen many dogs from many lines -- and I still would not be able to pick out a really superb breed example. The fact that I couldn't do this -- though it is pretty easy to spot the poor breed examples-- and the difficulty of getting my poor head around how breeding coefficients and genetics work underlines to me the time and effort it takes to get to know the breed well enough to even consider breeding (as Bruce has pointed out, generally you want to be mentored for a couple of years before feeling ready to breed and then only with the help of a mentor). It's also why I really admire the good breeders who are so committed to geting the best possible mix of health, conformation and temperament.

On the flip side, running Irish Cavalier rescue means I see a LOT of BYB and puppy farm cavaliers as those are the majority that come in, regardless of whether they have their IKC papers (I cannot stress enough how little a good registration means outside of indicating that at least you have a better chance of having found a good breeder -- it just takes a lot of research and legwork to find a good breeder with the proper registration being the most basic starting point). Every dog is of course to be cherished, and I am not talking about any dog being 'better' than another simply because of a pedigree, but what I hope is that people will learn where to spend their money if they are buying a cavalier, and how to avoid the scammers.

I am working on a post for the library that will walk through all these kinds of things -- to help people figure out whether the things any given breeder is saying actually mean anything and to better spot the good ones. :)

pippa
13th October 2006, 10:45 PM
When I was going for a cavalier I contacted the secretery of the irish CKCS club, she lives close to me and we attend the same vet.She put me in touch with someone from the club who deals with the breeders and that lady put me in touch with Gus's breeder.

I contacted that breeder again when I decided to get another cav but I think she has retired from breeding now.


Friends of mine have got cavaliers recently and from what I can gather seem to have gotton them from a BY breeder,Their colouring is not great and after she got her dog her mum decided to get one and then another member of her familygot one and has recently got another one and now has two. Seems to me no matter how often they call this breeder he has dogs ready :?

Her dog is very small and thin doesn't eat well and is extremely nervous with people and from what she tells me the other dogs are much the same. I think this is very worrying

molly+charlies mum
14th October 2006, 11:00 AM
when i went to get molly the breeder had the pups in the kitchen but in the garden she had about 12 cavaliers,cages of show cats and other dogs and the house was small ,molly has always been small but never nervous i wouldnt go to her again..

goldcountryrose
15th October 2006, 04:36 AM
I went to cavaliersonline and couldn't find either the sire or dam of my dog. I have their AKC registration numbers and their names. The Dam is Szikasdombi Roulet Reg # TR41717601, then it has (06-06) HUN and the Sire is Happy Pappy Reg #TP29450008 (06-04)

The dam is in Yuba City, CA, and the sire was via artificial insemination.

Can someone help me find more info about this?

goldcountryrose
15th October 2006, 05:07 AM
For the most part, don't most breeders begin as BY breeders? I have read the stories of some of the very large Champion breeding kennels, and most of them began with a couple of dogs.

The breeder from whom I got toby had about 2 males and females, yet she chose to breed via AI, wouldn't that indicate that she was going for a more distant match? Thus, more remote DNA and healthier dogs?

Cathy T
15th October 2006, 07:23 PM
For the most part, don't most breeders begin as BY breeders? I have read the stories of some of the very large Champion breeding kennels, and most of them began with a couple of dogs.

Absolutely not. A backyard breeder is one who does not heart test their dogs, does not wait until their bitch has been heart clear for minimum 2 years before breeding and basically indiscriminately breeds. A reputable breeder does not buy two dogs and start breeding. Normally they will have a mentor who will guide them through breeding. They will attend shows, become educated about Cavalier health, become familiar with the whole Cavalier world...and then decide to breed. They are careful about their breeding stock. Many breeders will tell you about how they became involved in Cavaliers and spent a couple of years educating themselves about Cavaliers before beginning to breed.

Karlin
15th October 2006, 09:34 PM
Reputable breeders rarely begin as backyard breeders. I know of only one or two who, through spending time on the discussions boards and lists like this, have realised the way they are breeding is the wrong way, and that every litter they produce does nothing to benefit either the individual puppies or the breed.

Anyone who cares about dogs will understand very quickly, once they begin to research breeds and breeding and the genetic issues one encounters with purebreds, that one will need to serve some sort of apprenticeship before getting involved on a professional level with breeding dogs. And by that I do not mean an apprenticeship with a breeder/mentor, though it is very difficult to learn anything without one -- but serve a responsible apprenticeship to a breed one will know little about. That means doing your very best by the breed by slowly acquiring knowledge, reading books, going to shows, studying the sites of good breeders, talking to good breeders, attending health and information seminars thru the clubs, joining the breeder lists and learning, learning to understand the complexities of breeding and genetics and the precise health issues and their inheritability of your chosen breed...

A backyard breeder by very definition is a person who does not care about learning any of this as they have not bothered to think beyond setting up a whelping box and a website. A BYB thinks only about deriving money and perhaps some personal pleasure from breeding and having cute puppies around the house. But how can anyone derive pleasure from knowingly producing dogs without any care about their future beyond pocketing money from them and the fun you might get preparing them for a new home? That is the purely selfish side of breeding, and is cruel towards the very breed one is supposed to be so dedicated to.

I cannot stress enough that a breeder should be asked for the pedigree of the sire and dam before anyone even considers a puppy, for at least three and preferably five generations. The breeder should be happy to tak about the history of his or her lines, explain their breeding programme, show you all the formal health clearances, probably have dogs listed on the OFA site to verify the health testing and so you can check the AGE (a cardiac clearance at age 1 means nothing; a cardiac clearance at age 2, 3, 4 also means nothing unless the grandparents on both sides also had clear hearts at age 5). Then go do your research -- what is the background of sire and dam? Do the parents or grandparents appear in the online databases or at the very least, the kennel name? If only the grandparents, greatgrandparents, or further back ancestors do, then that should raise some immediate red flags about the breeder. Does the breeder show? If not, another red flag.

If I had a dog where I was only given the name of sire and dam and nothing else, I'd be back to that breeder to ask for full and proper pedigrees. I'd want to know why the kennel names for the parents aren't listed. I'd want to know if they list their health tested dog's results on OFA and if not, why not. I'd want to see the actual pieces of paper with the clearances so I'd know they were actually done. I'd want to know at what age the dire and dam were when bred.

If none of this could be produced to my satisfaction, I'd realise this is a breeder to avoid in future, and chalk this up to experience -- one that many, many have in buying their first dog as there are far more unethical than ethical breeders out there. There are reasons why a perfectly decent dog might not appear in the databases but it is always an exception and I'd want to know why. Also I'd be googling to see who else has such dogs, and if it is other breeders, I'd be chekcing out their sites to see if the original kennel looks like one that is seelling dogs on full registration to BYBs -- importing foreign dogs that can avail of dual registration is one way BYBs get full AKC registration for trash breeding programmes.

In rescue I deal with the product of BYBs and puppy farms all the time. Dogs way too big or too small, that don't look like proper cavaliers, muzzles way too long, that have early onset heart murmurs, that have temperament problems, that are way too stocky or sway backed, that will lead short, compromised lives because someone thought it would be nice to have one or maybe two litters from their own dog to 'get back what they paid for her'. :x :x

The fact that this discussion has veered towards having to reiterate that backyard breeding is at all times indefensible, underlines why I am wary of any topic that brings up discussions of breeding, even when they start in as innocuous a subject as the pedigrees of one's own dogs. :?

Mic
15th October 2006, 10:30 PM
Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Karlin. I'm glad you participated in this discussion because I learned a lot from it.

How can I find out anything about a kennel in the UK?

Mickey

Edited to remove the kennel name so I don't get in trouble. ;)

Karlin
15th October 2006, 11:52 PM
You can google them, try the online databases, or ask someone familiar with the UK kennels. Some kennels that have been around for a while are in the breed history books too. If someone knowns the name they can also PM or email you for further offline discussion. :thmbsup:

Mic
16th October 2006, 04:26 AM
Thanks for the tips, Karlin. I tried searching via google and got zero results. Same with the online database search you listed in the FAQ forum. Hmmm...not good. When I search by the breeder's name, I get a bit of info, but not pertaining to her CKCS program. Oh well.
Mickey

goldcountryrose
16th October 2006, 07:49 AM
Karlin, I just don't know what to say. Clearly your heart is true and your knowledge is beyond reproach. I really hope this doesn't make you mad, but I have to understand.

Are you saying that if I chose to buy a dam and a sire, and paid about 6k for them, and I had made sure that their DNA was far removed, did heart checks, and everything else I could do...If I got a litter, then I am just a backyard breeder? I am sensing an ackward standard.

So far, no one has answered my basic question, why would the breeder of my dog choose AI when she had 2 perfectly able males an 2 perfectly able females? Why did she keep my dog and his brother 7 months? She said it was because she thought my dog was going to be a perfect show dog, but then the underbite showed up as he grew older.

She has the mother of my dog and saw her. She has a male who is too big to breed, he is about 25 lbs, so she didn't breed him. She had me sign a contract that I would neuter my dog, and on the AKC registration form, she blacked out the space she should have to indicate that my dog cannot be bred or shown. Does that sound irresponsible to you?

I have the love of my life, and I got him for 600 dollars because of his defect. I could not love him more. And he is as healthy as a horse.

When I send in his AKC registration, I will get his pedigree, with prior generations.

I'm not refuting anything you say, but it does sound like you are saying that my dog, since he came from loving people who arent in some registry, is doomed.

But on this website, I read of dogs who become desperately ill and die and I don't hear that those dogs came from disreputable people.

Karlin, I am just suggesting that tho some breeders only have a few dogs, that doesn't mean that they aren't paying attention.

As to Puppy Mills, I find the whole concept disgusting.

Barbara Nixon
17th October 2006, 07:53 PM
Monty's parents are not of a wellknown line but they come from Sanikros, Saladors, Crissdigs, Hillyacres and Sunninghills, starting at the next generation.

Izzy's father was Salador Comet and his mum, Huntsbank Sequin of Acewall, so he's mainly from Saladors, Ronnocs, Huntsbanks, Hillyacres and Toraylacs.

Joly's parents go back to Lyndabelles, Huntsbanks, Homerbrents, Toraylacs, Hillyacres, and many other well known lines.

Teddy's parents are Homerbrent Expression and Toraylac Felicity at Acewall, so he's more than half Homerbrent, with Toraylacs, Lorankas, and Milkeyns.

WoodHaven
17th October 2006, 08:25 PM
Karlin, I just don't know what to say. Clearly your heart is true and your knowledge is beyond reproach. I really hope this doesn't make you mad, but I have to understand.

Are you saying that if I chose to buy a dam and a sire, and paid about 6k for them, and I had made sure that their DNA was far removed, did heart checks, and everything else I could do...If I got a litter, then I am just a backyard breeder? I am sensing an ackward standard.

So far, no one has answered my basic question, why would the breeder of my dog choose AI when she had 2 perfectly able males an 2 perfectly able females? Why did she keep my dog and his brother 7 months? She said it was because she thought my dog was going to be a perfect show dog, but then the underbite showed up as he grew older.




She has the mother of my dog and saw her. She has a male who is too big to breed, he is about 25 lbs, so she didn't breed him. She had me sign a contract that I would neuter my dog, and on the AKC registration form, she blacked out the space she should have to indicate that my dog cannot be bred or shown. Does that sound irresponsible to you?

I have the love of my life, and I got him for 600 dollars because of his defect. I could not love him more. And he is as healthy as a horse.

When I send in his AKC registration, I will get his pedigree, with prior generations.

I'm not refuting anything you say, but it does sound like you are saying that my dog, since he came from loving people who arent in some registry, is doomed.

But on this website, I read of dogs who become desperately ill and die and I don't hear that those dogs came from disreputable people.

Karlin, I am just suggesting that tho some breeders only have a few dogs, that doesn't mean that they aren't paying attention.

As to Puppy Mills, I find the whole concept disgusting.

$$ 6000.00 isn't that much for TWO breeding quality cavaliers. There is an import that came into the US that cost more than 20 thousand.

DNA can't be far removed--- these are purebred cavaliers. Random outcrossing can produce cavaliers that don't breed to the standard. You have to know pedigrees and what they produce to venture into outcrossing successfully.

People who breed dogs for pets are backyard breeders. People who bred dogs for $$$ are puppymillers- People who breed dogs to improve the breed are hobby breeders. Only hobby breeders tend to go to health seminars have board certified heart, eye and hip exams and possibly MRI their breeding dogs.

A slight underbite is NOT a huge defect. I would never sell a dog with an underbite for less.. If he is a pet it is NO BIG DEAL unless it requires surgery to correct.

We aren't allowed to publically bash breeders (good ones or bad ones). Learning is paramount here on a public board. Yes, people on this board have told where they got their dogs and some of us groan. Some millers and brokers are so well known I kinda wish we could have a list of "beware of these breeders". It won't happen because of the threat of being sued.

I've been to a lot of shows-- I haven't seen the perfect cavalier yet. We are striving to produce better, healthier dogs.

I have a beautiful 20# cavalier boy I probably will never breed because he is too big. If I had a male that was 25# I wouldn't breed him either. That is 1.5 times the breed standard. She probably did an AI for all the reasons we all do AI's-- to try to improve what we have. That doesn't make her a saint-- that makes her smart.

Sorry, I am a bit on edge today-- I apologize in advance if I am too abrupt. Sandy

Cathy T
17th October 2006, 10:53 PM
People who breed dogs for pets are backyard breeders. People who bred dogs for $$$ are puppymillers- People who breed dogs to improve the breed are hobby breeders. Only hobby breeders tend to go to health seminars have board certified heart, eye and hip exams and possibly MRI their breeding dogs.
Sorry, I am a bit on edge today-- I apologize in advance if I am too abrupt. Sandy

Well put Sandy!! When asked why someone wants to breed a Cavalier the first and foremost answer MUST be to better the breed. That's the ONLY acceptable answer.

We'll let you off the hook for being a little edgy ;)

Cathy Moon
18th October 2006, 01:21 AM
Sandy, thanks for the info! :flwr: