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View Full Version : Is this normal after 1st vaccination??



estelle
21st September 2006, 12:35 PM
As some of you may know Charlie eventually had his 1st vaccination on tuesday :D He seems to have been ok, but yesterday he seemed to have a little bit of an upset tummy/runs :( today though it seems worse he keeps trying to go and all that happens is a squirty sound and little blobs that look like they have blood in, he also had one that was almost like tar :yikes :yikes
Please can someone put my mind at rest or tell me if he needs the vet again

Alison_Leighfield
21st September 2006, 01:16 PM
I wouldn't be happy with this, he may have had a reaction, ring the vet, I hate vaccinations especially in Cavaliers, and if I have ever needed them to be done I request it in the hind leg bottom area, and I leave as late as possible ideally not before 20/24 wks. You can still easily socialise a puppy without having had it's vac's if thats a main worry here.

The neck area is a very sensitive topic with myself due to the SM issues, I always try to use alternative treatments. I feel and others do agree, that we over vaccinate here....just my own thoughts and big worries folks! :)

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

Cathy Moon
21st September 2006, 01:44 PM
Poor Charlie! Whenever it's a puppy with diarrhea, it is always better to see the vet without delay. Puppies can get dehydrated so easily. Hope Charlie feels better soon! Please keep us updated. :flwr:

matties mum
21st September 2006, 02:03 PM
Estelle Please take him back to the vets asap Aileen

selina
21st September 2006, 02:24 PM
I wouldn't be happy with this, he may have had a reaction, ring the vet, I hate vaccinations especially in Cavaliers, and if I have ever needed them to be done I request it in the hind leg bottom area, and I leave as late as possible ideally not before 20/24 wks. You can still easily socialise a puppy without having had it's vac's if thats a main worry here.

The neck area is a very sensitive topic with myself due to the SM issues, I always try to use alternative treatments. I feel and others do agree, that we over vaccinate here....just my own thoughts and big worries folks! :)

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

I agree. There is no need to vaccinate every year. But obedience clubs insist on it so what can you do? I get very frustrated with it. Especially as I have friends that have had dogs with the very diseases they are innoculated against. so what does that tell you?

estelle
21st September 2006, 02:50 PM
Have just phoned the vets and she said to give him prescription food which I have to go and collect, that it's not a side effect from the vacine as this happens usually within the first 30 mins of having it, and if he continues to have blood in his poop to collect a sample and take it to her, she said it could possibly be some kind of worms that arn't being attacked by the frontline that he had 2/3 weeks ago.
I feel a little better but would like to get to the bottom of this.

Is the general feeling then that we shouldn't vaccinate? or if we do to have it in the hind/bum area?
How do we take them out on leads etc without them picking something up :?

Claire
21st September 2006, 02:57 PM
We were not going to have the older twos boosters this year, I really trust my vet Julian and he said that really not enough tests have been carried out on whether to vaccine or not - you could take blood and test for each individual disease, and have single injections for each but probably did more harm than good - we decided to go for boosters each year.

For the worms we have Drontal tablets - have never used anything else. For fleas, etc. we use Frontline.

We had Royal Cannin Sensitive when ours had upset tummies, the stools had blood in them with a mucus...

estelle
21st September 2006, 03:08 PM
I'm all confused :sl*p:
This was Charlie's first ever vaccine, not booster, he's only 13 weeks and I thought that they had to have them before they could go out and mix with other dogs etc, are people saying that they sometimes do more harm than good and that they are not neccesary???
If this is the case i know that charlie would really benefit from being outside and mixing but obviously don't want him to come to any harm :?

Claire
21st September 2006, 03:17 PM
Sorry didn't mean to confuse you - they have two injections, one at 9 weeks and one at 12 (used to be 12 and 15). Then there are boosters once a year after that. :oops:

Alison_Leighfield
21st September 2006, 03:39 PM
Estelle, I will pm you private. :flwr:

Alison,Wilts.

Kdemars
21st September 2006, 03:51 PM
Can you please pm me too - or post on here - I would like to know as well. Thanks :flwr:

Alison_Leighfield
21st September 2006, 04:01 PM
Training clubs, agility clubs and boarding kennels all in my area in the U.K. are happy to take dogs using nosodes as are P.A.T dogs now as well.

Selina can you use these instead?

Alison, Wilts, U.k.

Alison_Leighfield
21st September 2006, 04:15 PM
For any of you in the U.K interested in nosodes instead of vaccinations here is where I get mine from... also remedies for many other problems.... :flwr:

www.gentletouchremedies.co.uk

have a read, it's food for thought.....he gives a 1st class pay on return service and always returns answers to all questions fast by e-mail.

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

Claire
21st September 2006, 04:41 PM
Alison what do you recommend in replace of the boosters.... am not sure.

Alison_Leighfield
21st September 2006, 04:56 PM
Right then here goes!!!

if you have never used nosodes before you have to start at the beginning and then do boosters afterwards....you do the full course!

I use...

Homoeopathic Complete Canine Vacc + Kennel Cough Nosode 30c.

Give 1 pill twice per day for 3 days then 1 pill per week for 6 wks.

THEN...the booster dose every 12 months after this is 1 pill twice per day for 3 days...

EASY!!! it wasn't very expensive about £5-6, for the full course and booster.

This combination covers them for Hard pad, Distemper, Parvo virus, Leptospirosis, Hepatitis, Bordetellosis (Kennel cough)


Claire, you will need to do the full course as above, then do the booster dose yearly.

Alison, wilts, U.K.

GudrunTheRed
21st September 2006, 05:25 PM
Alison,

That's a wonderful site.Do you know of any folks from the US who order from that site?

Alison_Leighfield
21st September 2006, 05:39 PM
No I don't...but if it's a problem getting this there PM me, we could try to sort something out. I would have to find out if it's suitable for shipping/posting etc. :flwr:

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

Lisa_T
21st September 2006, 05:42 PM
I had Holly vaccinated this year- though I tend to go pretty much 16-18 months before the booster. I take it I need to wait til the 12 months have elapsed before I could do this with Holly?

Alison_Leighfield
21st September 2006, 05:50 PM
Yes Lisa, :flwr:

wait until you are about ready to do the booster at 12 months and then start the whole new course.

All details and a record card get sent with the tabs so you can keep all your own records at home easily. Most insurance companies are happy with you using them as well now, just give them a bell to let them know.

The tabs are very tiny, about the size of the little glass balls on the sewing pins, mine don't even notice them, they have no smell etc.

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

Alison_Leighfield
21st September 2006, 05:56 PM
Have just checked the site, they do ship overseas but require payment before shipping....details at the very bottom of the page, should be good for the U.S and Australia then!

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

judy
21st September 2006, 06:28 PM
Have just phoned the vets and she said to give him prescription food which I have to go and collect, that it's not a side effect from the vacine as this happens usually within the first 30 mins of having it, and if he continues to have blood in his poop to collect a sample and take it to her, she said it could possibly be some kind of worms that arn't being attacked by the frontline that he had 2/3 weeks ago.
I feel a little better but would like to get to the bottom of this.

when i got zack at 4 months, he needed his last puppy shot. he had bloody diarrhea already, i took him to the vet, they gave me medication for the diarrhea, Flagyl. They also wanted to do the puppy shot he needed, and also the rabies and bordatella shots he had not had yet. This was unthinkable to me, as he was sick with bloody diarrhea and was on medication. so they said they could wait on the shots. i was naive about all these things then. I've learned a lot since then.

He improved on the medication and i t hought the diarrhea was all better, so i took him in a week later and got the shot, DHPP, but not rabies or bordatella, i didint' want to have them all at once, and also a cavalier breeder who i respect a lot for her knowledge and love of the breed cautioned about the rabies vaccine and said it might be best to wait as long as possible to get it. The next day after Zack's last puppy shot, he was a different dog, not the happy little playful guy, and he yelped and cried when i picked him up, his leg was sore where he had the shot, very sore. he was quiet. I called the vet, asked about whether it was from the shot, they said he could have a normal reaction like this to the shot for about 3 days. Then, although he was better after one day, the diarrhea returned the same day full force.

Clearly in retrospect (though not at the time), he was doing better with the diarrhea but the shot knocked down his immune system and his body was overwhelmed by parasites or worms or something, and h e continued to be sick for a month until another vet decided to try deworming him, with Dontral Plus, and after that, he didn't have bloody diarrhea anymore.

He has also not had anymore shots. I'm not sure when his boosters are due. I don't know about the rabies, i'm on the fence and looking into it. I expect to have it done, not because i believe he's likely to get exposed to rabies, but because of the legal issues. I am hoping his body will be strong enough to weather the vaccine. there's a certain delicacy about a cavalier, and it worries me, as it did the breeder w ho cautioned about it. The vaccine can be harsh to the system, and they can most certainly cause long term chronic autoimmune illnesses in some dogs. It's not an easy choice for me.

There are many people who would disagree with your vet that side effects to vaccinations only occur in the first 30 minutes after, and if a vet believes that, then they won't report the side effect to the drug company, and then it will not be included as a statistic about adverse reactions, which means that the problems with vaccinations will remain in the darkness of denial, and people will assume that reactions are rare, when actually they are just not reported and are minimized.

If the vet is right and it's worms, which would be like what happened to Zack, still, the vaccination appears likely to have lowered his immunity so that the worms could overwhelm his defenses and cause symptoms. I think this should be reported by the vet to the drug company. He was a dog without bloody diarrhea, and then, right after the vaccination, he had it. This needs to be reported. But it won't be, your vet is not unusual. There's a whole big report, you can find it on line, by the veterinary hospital association and another major vet association on their research into vaccines and one of their main concerns was underreporting of adverse reactions.

good luck with the gastrointestinal problems, i hope you and your vet are able to clear them up quickly. Before having more vaccinations, maybe you can first prepare his body by giving him some homeopathic treatments so that he will have the ability to not get sick from the next vaccination.

If that vaccination that made Zack sick had not been his last one, i don't know what i would've done, i don't know if i would've gotten any more. I would've had to research it carefully and look at it on a vaccine by vaccine basis, and maybe had some done and not others, and DEFINITELY NOT HAD THEM ALL GIVEN IN ONE VACCINE TOGETHER but had them one at a time spaced apart.

I was alarmed to learn that for cost of production reasons, the same amount of vaccine is given to a 150 pound dog and a 10 pound dog.

there's lots of controversy about vaccinations. I don't have the answers. I have lots of questions and a need to learn information from all sides of the issue.

Cathy Moon
21st September 2006, 06:49 PM
Have just phoned the vets and she said to give him prescription food which I have to go and collect, that it's not a side effect from the vacine as this happens usually within the first 30 mins of having it, and if he continues to have blood in his poop to collect a sample and take it to her, she said it could possibly be some kind of worms that arn't being attacked by the frontline that he had 2/3 weeks ago.
I feel a little better but would like to get to the bottom of this.

Is the general feeling then that we shouldn't vaccinate? or if we do to have it in the hind/bum area?
How do we take them out on leads etc without them picking something up :?

Estelle, I think this is a topic where you need to decide for yourself by educating yourself and finding people whose opinions you trust, and discussing it with a trusted vet and your dog's breeder. You're going to hear many different opinions, so you'll have to decide for yourself.

When we bought our first cav, India, our breeder gave us information about titer testing, to avoid over-vaccinating. We made sure India got all of her puppy shots, then when a year was up we discussed titer testing with our vet. He told us that he would do it if we wanted, but told us the Lepto vaccine wears off first from the DHLPP shot, and he does not like the Lepto vaccine that is given by itself - it has a higher incidence of reaction in dogs.

We decided to play it safe and get the yearly vaccinations, and haven't had any problems. This is a personal decision, and we also trust our vet's opinions.

BTW, Geordie caught bordetella as a puppy BEFORE his bordetella shot, not that the vaccination covers all forms of bordetella anyways. It was costly, but he is fine now.

Alison_Leighfield
21st September 2006, 07:05 PM
I think the way you can get your dogs tested in the U.S before vaccination (titer testing to prevent over vaccination) is excellent...we don't get this in the U.K, and that you can can different parts of the vaccine at different times, we get an "all in one" shot ...ugh... :yikes


Also like Judy mentioned it's frightening that each dog gets the same amount regardless of size and weight etc... :(

It is a personal choice...

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

judy
21st September 2006, 07:20 PM
Cathy, that is scary, for a puppy to get kennel cough, the prognosis can be bad in a puppy, their immune systems are not that strong. i'm so glad you got him through it. When you talked about not being able to socialize him, i'm guessing you mean you had to isolate him, and keep him fairly quiet--how long did that have to go on?

About your vet's experience of the separate lepto vaccine being more prone to causing reactions than the combination one, if that vet's experience is typical and other vets have similar experiences, i sure hope they are reporting it to the drug manufacturer and that the manufacturer is looking into the problem and working to develop a safer lepto vaccine for separate administration. There's a need for this. It really depends on vets reporting these things.

It's admirable that your vet informed you of this. Some vets don't really discuss detail with owners and don't inform them, just thinking it isn't necessary i guess. If he hadn't told you, you wouldn't have known the risk.

Communication about vaccines is so important, and there is room for it to become more open between vets and pet owners.

WoodHaven
21st September 2006, 09:36 PM
[quote="judy"]


There are many people who would disagree with your vet that side effects to vaccinations only occur in the first 30 minutes after, and if a vet believes that, then they won't report the side effect to the drug company, and then it will not be included as a statistic about adverse reactions, which means that the problems with vaccinations will remain in the darkness of denial, and people will assume that reactions are rare, when actually they are just not reported and are minimized.

**************************Sandy's response
There is an immediate response to immunizations-- like an anaphalatic reaction-- seizures - loss of muscle control, inability to breathe etc...
There is a short term response--- flu like symptoms, body aches, fever, diarrhea
There are the long term response-- autoimmune deficencies-- possible cancers.

####################


I was alarmed to learn that for cost of production reasons, the same amount of vaccine is given to a 150 pound dog and a 10 pound dog.

*****************************************

My vet has vials of medication and he is told how much to draw up into the syringe. HE could save a lot of money if he could give smaller amounts to smaller dogs-- but the vaccine company says that there is a minimum required for a living body to respond.

Our company is giving out flu shots this year. (don't get me started)-- the 95 pound women get the same size shot as the 250 pound men.



there's lots of controversy about vaccinations. I don't have the answers. I have lots of questions and a need to learn information from all sides of the issue.

I agree 100%-- Sandy

Cathy Moon
22nd September 2006, 02:26 AM
Cathy, that is scary, for a puppy to get kennel cough, the prognosis can be bad in a puppy, their immune systems are not that strong. i'm so glad you got him through it. When you talked about not being able to socialize him, i'm guessing you mean you had to isolate him, and keep him fairly quiet--how long did that have to go on?

About your vet's experience of the separate lepto vaccine being more prone to causing reactions than the combination one, if that vet's experience is typical and other vets have similar experiences, i sure hope they are reporting it to the drug manufacturer and that the manufacturer is looking into the problem and working to develop a safer lepto vaccine for separate administration. There's a need for this. It really depends on vets reporting these things.

It's admirable that your vet informed you of this. Some vets don't really discuss detail with owners and don't inform them, just thinking it isn't necessary i guess. If he hadn't told you, you wouldn't have known the risk.

Communication about vaccines is so important, and there is room for it to become more open between vets and pet owners.
Judy,
The vet said he preferred not to use the single Lepto vaccine, because the pharmaceutical company was either not testing properly or being responsive enough to dogs' reactivity.

As far as Geordie's bordetella, for the longest time we weren't even sure what was wrong with him as he was retching at night and in the morning more so than actually coughing! They thought it might be worms and some other things, for which he was treated. Finally we talked to one of the vets who does endoscopy, and he scoped Geordie's lungs and stomach. He cultured a sample from Geordie's lungs and found a bordetella bacteria. They used the culture to determine the most effective antibiotic, and Geordie was cured within a few weeks. I wish we had known to push for this sooner because we got Geordie in mid December and he was finally scoped sometime in March. We missed his key socialization period, not wanting to take him out when sickly, and you can really see a difference between him and our other two! We are almost a permanent team at the training facility! I could probably teach some of the classes :lol: :flwr:

judy
22nd September 2006, 06:58 AM
Cathy, what an ordeal. Do you have a theory of how/where he contracted the bordatella? Had he been vaccinated for it before he got it? Did he have it before you brought him home, do you think? what a relief to get a diagnosis and effective treatment--still, it sounds like even after the antibiotics were started, it still took a long time to clear up. A wonderful thing that there was no permanent damage to the body or general health.
i don't know what would've happened if you hadn't eventually had him scoped.

selina
22nd September 2006, 01:28 PM
It would be great if it was acceptable to use homeopathic remedies. But unfortunately my club doesnt accept it. So what I do is make sure all my pups have there vaccinations and only vaccinate the ones that i am trialling or showing with boosters every year. And the retirees I vaccinate every second year. I dont like doing this but I have no alternative at this stage. Australia seems a bit behind the times when it comes to accepting homeopathic or natural remedies. I didnt even immunise 2 of my children after the reaction my eldest one had, and now he as learning problems linked to brain damage that was more than likely caused by them. I will have a chat to my homeopath for at least the ones I dont take out. And I am sorry if I caused the confusion. Its a bit of a touchy subject for me. and my vet also said the same thing that there hasnt been any true testing done to see if they really work.