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cecily
23rd September 2006, 10:35 AM
Who is this person?

I've never heard of him. But I've heard a few people on the boards mention him, sometimes in not a very complimentary way!

I figure he must be american? On Channel 4 in Ireland and UK we have "It's me or the dog", which I quite liked (SHOCKING how some pet owners and their pets behave). Unfortunately we moved house and didn't have channel 4 all last year, so only saw one or two episodes. Anyone know if it will be back?

merlinsmum
23rd September 2006, 10:49 AM
Who is this person?

I've never heard of him. But I've heard a few people on the boards mention him, sometimes in not a very complimentary way!

I figure he must be american? On Channel 4 in Ireland and UK we have "It's me or the dog", which I quite liked (SHOCKING how some pet owners and their pets behave). Unfortunately we moved house and didn't have channel 4 all last year, so only saw one or two episodes. Anyone know if it will be back?

I've heard of him but never seen or heard his "work"

misty
23rd September 2006, 12:28 PM
I saw him on satellite tv last night.

A lady had a dog from the pound, who hated being groomed. I didn't like his methods of sorting the problem :(

UK'ers and Irish, watch out for "Me Or The Dog" - my daughter and I were interviewed at the Wag & Bone show for it, together with Bradley.

Fingers crossed it gets shown.

merlinsmum
23rd September 2006, 12:30 PM
I saw him on satellite tv last night.

A lady had a dog from the pound, who hated being groomed. I didn't like his methods of sorting the problem :(

UK'ers and Irish, watch out for "Me Or The Dog" - my daughter and I were interviewed at the Wag & Bone show for it, together with Bradley.

Fingers crossed it gets shown.

Will do - just hope its not on a Thursday - its training on a Thursday and we can't miss that!

Cathy Moon
23rd September 2006, 12:55 PM
What a coincidence that I just received my November 2006 Dog Fancy magazine, and there's an article about the Dog Whisperer. His name is Cesar Milan, he's Mexican-born, now living in Los Angeles. He has set up a dog training center and trains dogs using dominance training, an old and incorrect version of wolf-pack hierarchy. He has had no formal training in animal behavior, yet National Geographic Channel has been running his dog-training show for two years, starting on its third season. He has also published at least one book about dog training.

In the article, professional dog trainers criticize his methods and point out all kinds of wrong things he is teaching. Even the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists has complained to National Geographic Channel. But his show is evidently very popular; I'm assuming its a lot like watching the Nanny911 type shows, where you cannot believe how bad people let behavior get! :x

I have never seen the show because I don't want to spend too much money on cable TV every month.

I guess I take back what I said yesterday in another thread about being neutral in regards to him. Now I'm saying I totally disagree with what he's doing, and wish he'd work on attaining an American Pet Dog Trainer certificate. :x

Cathy Moon
23rd September 2006, 12:57 PM
UK'ers and Irish, watch out for "Me Or The Dog" - my daughter and I were interviewed at the Wag & Bone show for it, together with Bradley.

Fingers crossed it gets shown.
:w**h**: Wow, that's really exciting! I wish I could see it! :mexwav:

Cathy T
23rd September 2006, 03:21 PM
I've been a fan of Cesar Millan's since the day I found him. Until....Lee Wells spoke at our club last week. I was so incredibly impressed with her methods and calmness and having fun with the training. Sorry...I've had a turn around in my thinking. I think he's fine as a last resort. Some of his methods I'm okay with but really prefer a kinder gentler method of training...particularly for this breed.

cecily
23rd September 2006, 03:55 PM
We just signed up to national geographic last night! What a coincidence. Must keep an eye out for it.

Misty, that's really exciting about "it's me or the dog"! Rio and I will be keeping an eye out for it. 8)

I don't think dominance training is really necessary with cavaliers, ever. I can't imagine a nasty one. I wonder is this cesar man anything like the one that does me or the dog? She lets them know who's boss but is never cruel (at least in the 2 eps I've seen!). I'd say more aggressive breeds that have been brought up poorly need a stronger hand than most though to get their behaviour into line. What kind of methods does he use? The name 'dog whisperer' would suggest a Robert Redford / snow white type :)

Cathy Moon
23rd September 2006, 04:14 PM
According to this article, he does collar pops, finger jabs, alpha rolling (pinning a dog to the ground). He doesn't tell viewers to first take their dogs to the vet to make sure a medical problem isn't causing the problem behavior. For fearful dogs, he uses 'flooding', which overwhelms a fearful dog into shutting down. This is all in the article in Nov. 2006 Dog Fancy magazine. He has many critics!

I would only work with trainers who use 100% positive methods! Positive, reward-based training is much better for promoting mutually respectful, close and trusting relationships between people and their dogs.

cecily
23rd September 2006, 04:28 PM
[quote="Cathy Moon"]According to this article, he does collar pops, finger jabs, alpha rolling (pinning a dog to the ground). He doesn't tell viewers to first take their dogs to the vet to make sure a medical problem isn't causing the problem behavior. For fearful dogs, he uses 'flooding', which overwhelms a fearful dog into shutting down. This is all in the article in Nov. 2006 Dog Fancy magazine. quote]

:yikes :yikes :yikes
He sounds horrible
I'm fascinated by dog training, but definitely there's only one way to do it. Like you said Cathy, positive reinforcement will produce the same rewards. I'm a teacher and we use very similar methods :lol: Lots of praise, deliberate ignoring, rewards systems and it definitely works. They're not so different, people and animals :lol: :lol: Just need love and encouragement.

Here's a link to the Channel 4 show... it's got some videos and stuff
http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/I/itsmeorthedog/index.html

Ste
23rd September 2006, 06:30 PM
His show used to be on either SkyOne or Animal Planet at about 9:30am, i don't know if it still is.

Alison_Leighfield
23rd September 2006, 06:52 PM
Patience, kindness, understanding and a gentle voice has always deliverd rewards to me. You can be firm and kind at the same time. I think dogs pick up on our feelings and emotions more than we give them credit for.

I hate to see people yell at their dogs, you can see the fear in their eyes. :(

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

Remali
23rd September 2006, 07:21 PM
I've seen Cesar Milan's show on TV quite a few times....and at first he seemed OK. But you know, after watching more of the shows, and reading more about him, I don't think I'm liking him much any more. Agree with using a much kinder and gentler method of training!!

Lani
23rd September 2006, 09:35 PM
I think everyone needs to decide for themselves too. I used to watch The Dog Whisperer too and agree that kindler genter methods are preferable and I think for Cavs, they'll work. I'm using positive reinforcement with Lucky and it's going fine so far. cl*p :xfngr: He's such a little angel. *ng*l (most of the time ...)

That said, there are a couple things that people ought to know about the show (I also used to watch it a lot and I also eventualy stopped because , well, once you have seen a few episodes you "get it").

Anyway, things to know - First of all, they do say, frequently throughout the broadcast, that his methods should not be attempted without first consulting a qualified dog trainer. Secondly, the dogs featured on the show are usually severe problem cases - some are at the point where they are biting neighbors, children, barking at other dogs constantly while on walks, etc. In many of the cases, they at the point where the owners are reluctantly considering giving them up.

That said, I think Karlin said in a previous thread that the kind of relationship that Cesar advocates is not the kind that she'd like to have with her dogs ... I completely agree with that. But I don't think he's the devil. I think for the dogs featured on his show, he makes a huge difference in the lives of the dogs and their owners. So that's my view on the Dog Whisperer ... works for some, but not necessarily for me and Lucky.

That said, it was recommended to me that I purchase a book written by the Monks of New Skete - they have two books - one of which is called "how to be your dog's best friend ..." ... They also have a video that I'm thinking of getting. I think I'd like to be Lucky's best friend. :lotsaluv:

Lisa_T
23rd September 2006, 09:45 PM
He's a Cavalier. If you provide him with food, and lots of it, that's pretty much guaranteeed :lol:

Lani
23rd September 2006, 10:04 PM
:rotfl:

Lisa, you have me laughing out loud!!!! I know you are right. He's just such a little love-muffin!!! :lotsaluv: That said, I do get worried about feeding him TOOO much given their propensity for heart issues. And Lucky sure does LOVE his food. :)

Maxxs_Mummy
23rd September 2006, 10:04 PM
:lol: Lisa_T :lol: You've got Cavaliers sussed then? :lol:

I agree with Alison here. I think kindness and patience works far better than yelling. I also think I am far too soft with my furbabies, my human kids and my hubby and they've all got me right where they want me :roll: :lol:

Ah well........


Fran, any idea when the new series is going to start? I love Victoria Stillwell's methods of training, they are so effective :D

Moviedust
24th September 2006, 01:39 AM
I had heard of Cesar Millan on the boards, so I checked out his first season on DVD. I wanted to see for myself what the controversy was all about.

The methods he uses are based on a lot of terminology he created, and while I see that he uses the old philosophies of dominance and submission, he doesnt not always use the terms consistently. For example, he calls a dog quieting down and relaxing as being submissive. To me, the dog was just calming down, which makes the dog listen more easily and behave in ways people find more acceptable.

He also uses the concept of a dominant dog in relationship to the idea that the human has not established him or herself as "pack leader". Any dog who is spoiled and hasnt been given limits to his/her behavior is called "dominant." In some cases, the behaviors the dog is exhibiting are actually behaviors that have been inadvertently taught to the dogs by people who don't know any better.

Many of these points are the issues why a lot of trainers and dog behaviorists have abandoned the terms and the accompanying philosophies. Cesar's lack of formal training in the area probably leads to his use of these terms but in uneducated ways.

Personally, a lot of what I have seen in season one episodes are a lot of "it sounds good for TV". The dominance and submission language is accompanied with a lot of "bring your energy" so that it can "travel down the leash to the dog". I'm sure this language serves Cesar well in his LA business when he deals with celebrity clients. It obviously transitioned well to TV.

Not to bash without giving credit, while some of Cesar's techniques are reminiscent of the failed dominant/submissive dog training philosophy, some of his techniques are useful and relevant. For instance, he teaches owners not to reward unwanted behavior. For example, if a dog acts nervous or scared, human reaction is to comfort and pet to help reassure the dog. Unintentionally, the owner is praising behavior that they'd be better off ignoring. He's using positive training philosophy to understand why the dog has developed unwanted behavior... he just doesnt always carry through how to use that same training method to get folks OUT of the negative behavior.

Similarly, while his emphasis on exercise can be extreme, I agree that many pet dogs are not walked enough (mine included!). It is not a huge insight, however, as it would require folks to walk their dogs, and most folks are grossly neglectful of their own need for exercise!

So while I can take and leave some of what I have seen from the show, I can understand, too, how my own experience and training has allowed me to judge the techniques. Others who watch the show who have less experience (and hence with dogs who are out of control) could grasp on to anything he says and give it a try. This risk if really quite huge, as I wouldnt suggest trying to do a submissive roll on a Great Dane with nervous issues. :S

selina
25th September 2006, 08:56 AM
I tried the dominance thing once and ended up with a nuerotic dog. Never again.

himindoors
25th September 2006, 09:09 AM
We saw this show recently and weren't impressed at all. The dogs did seem to be extreme cases but having previously watched the Dog Listener, Jan Fennell, deal with equally extreme cases without resorting to domination it was difficult to stomach this guy. As others have posted I don't think his methods would suit cavaliers at all. Our first training book was It's Me or the Dog and that was a great starting point.