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WillowsMom
26th October 2006, 02:13 PM
I was hoping someone here might have some insight/advice for us. When we got Willow, our breeder was a little reluctant to give her up - as she was growing, they realized what a good looking and nice dog she was going to be, and she was also put through the "puppy puzzle" and got the highest score out of the 8 puppies (from two litters) that they currently had.

Since she had already been promised to us, the breeder didn't back out of the deal (for which we are extremely grateful!), but she did ask us to consider letting her breed Willow - we'd have to keep her unspayed until her third heat, and then take her to the breeder for 2 weeks for the "conception", and then back there for 2 months when the puppies are due. As "payment", we'd get one of Willow's pups.

Has anyone done this? What are your experiences? Right now, we're still considering it, but the fact that the breeder is a 5-6 hour drive away is really a problem for us - we really wouldn't get to see her for that 2 months, and we're VERY attached to her, and she to us. I can't imagine leaving her for that long.

Willow is such a lovely dog, both in looks and tempermant that it seems a shame to not let her have some beautiful puppies (assuming all her health checks are in place, of course). Some of the breeders out there - have any of you done this with dogs that you've placed?

We need to make a decision fairly soon - if we're getting Willow spayed, it would be in early January.

Thanks!!

Krista

Mic
26th October 2006, 02:45 PM
Hmmm...that's a tough one. Not knowing much about breeding, here are some things I'd consider: ~ You'll really miss her for the two months she's with the breeder.
~ I think being separated from you will be especially tough for her considering her "condition."
~ About how old will she be at breeding time and does that comply with the recommended age for breeding by the CKCS club gurus (don't know the official term, but you get my drift)?
~ Willow is adorable and I can see how she'd easily be top pup out of the breeder's two litters. But it's how she compares to breed standard that's most important for breeding.
~ Do they have a dad/mate/whatever (again, don't know the technical term) in mind? Can you check him out?
~ Have you considered the "what ifs" that can happen to Willow during pregnancy and delivery? Sorry to bring it up, but not every pregnancy goes smoothly. Shudder! Maybe you could bring Willow for an independent evaluation by another cav breeder or show judge who specializes in the breed. I think a second opinion from someone out of the loop could help you. It's a big decision with pros and cons no matter what you choose. I'm sure folks with experience will be able to shed some light on this topic, but those are the first questions that popped into my mind.
Good Luck!

WoodHaven
26th October 2006, 02:53 PM
I don't know your breeder -- And I am not asking (don't want to know actually). This can be a money making scheme. You risk your girls life and health and they can walk away with thousands of dollars in pups. IF your girls was the pick of the litter--- THEY should have kept her (we breed dogs to improve the breed).
~~~~who pays for the pre-breeding tests? Why would you get one pup and they get the rest??? This sounds fishy=== If they wanted to improve the breed they could take "pick" puppy for future breedings.
~~~ sorry this just has some red flags. AND by the way, most cavaliers are cute and have a great personality-- it doesn't mean they should be bred.
JMO-

WillowsMom
26th October 2006, 03:16 PM
Just to clarify - my understanding of the puppy puzzle is that it tests for how the puppy adheres to the breed standard and is also a test of temperment. The breeder would have kept her if she hadn't been promised to us - she did offer us another dog in her place, but we already had our hearts set on Willow. If we did want to go through with this, I would certainly request that all associated costs be absorbed by the breeder, since she would be the one profiting from this.

Thanks for your advice so far - I do think my breeder is on the up and up - I won't mention the name, but she is a registered breeder with our national association, and does all the health checks on the dogs she breeds (we have copies of all the health certifications for Willows parents, etc).

Thanks,
Krista

Barbara Nixon
26th October 2006, 03:37 PM
There are so many risks involved in breeding, even when people are experienced. The lady who bred Izzy, Teddy and Joly, lost a whole litter at 4 weeks,, from a very good Homerbrent bitch, for no apparent reason and the poor dog was distraught. Another bitch had to have a caesarian, so lost two puppies and I've been incontact with two other breeders, who've recently need caesars on their bitches, whle another got a whole litter aborted.

Then there are the puppies who aren't' right' and so unsaleable. What happens to them ? I know someone who ahd a puppy with a cleft palate, so had to hand rear him, as he couldn't suck, and will keep him if he can't be put right. This rearing cost her dearly in terms of time, sleep and money, for several weeks, but she was caring enough to see it through.

Unlike human mum's, your girl doesn't crave for puppies, so is not missing anything. In your place, i wouldn't risk my pet and would get her spayed to prevent pyometra, having lost one bitch and nearly lost another, to this disease, in the days when spaying wasn't popular. Anita, will tell you how quickly it can strike, as she nearly lost Milly within 24 hours, when she wasn't even a year old.

Cathy T
26th October 2006, 03:56 PM
Unfortunely people are often told that they are getting a dog a breeder was going to show and "hates to give her up...but I did promise you". Then you are asked to not spay/neuter. This is a line of you know what. I can't tell you how many people I have heard that from. I wouldn't buy into it. You purchased her as a pet, enjoy her as a pet. If someone who is breeding really feels this pup has show potential, comes from a well established line, has fantastic health prospects, etc....she never would have been sold in the first place.

Just my two cents worth. It's just that I've heard this same thing....literally in those words...too many times to count!! I'd be wary.

arasara
26th October 2006, 04:00 PM
Here are my two cents on this issue:

I think it's nice that your breeder thinks enough of Willow to think that she could "help her out" later on, but that's exactly that, "helping her out."

If Willow were my dog, I would have gone into the situation knowing that I was buying willow as a PET. I wouldn't want to take risks with her. A lot of things can go wrong during pregnancy and even after as a result of the pregnancy. Some dogs die giving birth.. it might not happen very often, none the less, it's still a scenario to be considered. Others have mentioned cesarian sections and stuff like that - no pregnancy goes without risk.

MY BF and I often tell each other that if anything ever happened to us, Kosmo would be put into a looney bin (seriously.) With a pregnant willow, her hormones will already be raging, do you really want to separate yourself from her for 2 months?! And for what? 1,600 dollars (the price of a puppy?) For me, personally, I think the risks definately outweigh the benefits. I wouldn't want to put myself without my dog for 2 months, let alone my poor dog!

Good luck! :)

matties mum
26th October 2006, 04:02 PM
I have got to agree that there is a lot of people who would do it I would not because of the health risk but that is me---Aileen

WillowsMom
26th October 2006, 04:07 PM
Thanks for the replies - I was already leaning towards not doing this (for various reasons, including not wanting to be seperated from her for so long, and the health risks). I figured I'd post to see if anyone thought this was actually a good idea - it seems not!

Looks like our decision is going to be easy....

Thank you again! I knew people on here would be helpful. :)

Krista

Mic
26th October 2006, 04:15 PM
No matter what you decided, isn't it nice to know that your knowledgeable breeder thinks highly enough of Willow that she desires to breed her?! Of course, even though I don't know a lot about the breed standards for a show cav, even I can tell that she's a beauty! And those eyes of hers...who couldn't love a face like that?! She's a doll.

WoodHaven
26th October 2006, 05:02 PM
Just to clarify - my understanding of the puppy puzzle is that it tests for how the puppy adheres to the breed standard and is also a test of temperment. The breeder would have kept her if she hadn't been promised to us - she did offer us another dog in her place, but we already had our hearts set on Willow. If we did want to go through with this, I would certainly request that all associated costs be absorbed by the breeder, since she would be the one profiting from this.

Thanks for your advice so far - I do think my breeder is on the up and up - I won't mention the name, but she is a registered breeder with our national association, and does all the health checks on the dogs she breeds (we have copies of all the health certifications for Willows parents, etc).

Thanks,
Krista

The Puppy Puzzle (I have it on video) is an idea of how to gauge structure on a young puppy. It doesn't have anything to do with the cavalier breed standard. The three biggies in breeding dogs is structure, type and health. FWIW, Sandy

WillowsMom
26th October 2006, 05:27 PM
The Puppy Puzzle (I have it on video) is an idea of how to gauge structure on a young puppy. It doesn't have anything to do with the cavalier breed standard. The three biggies in breeding dogs is structure, type and health. FWIW, Sandy

Thanks for clarifying, Sandy! As you can tell, I'm not a breeder, so I just learned what I could from Internet searches. :) It's nice to have someone more knowledgeable about these things.

That's one of the reasons I love these message boards, especially knowing that on this one there are experienced breeders that know all about this particular breed - we did do the research on the breed before deciding on a Cavalier, but all the research in the world can't replace real life experience. I actually wish I'd found this board before getting Willow - I would still have gotten a Cavalier (I don't regret that for an instant!), but I might have been a bit more informed going into it.


Krista

Cathy T
26th October 2006, 09:52 PM
I actually wish I'd found this board before getting Willow - I would still have gotten a Cavalier (I don't regret that for an instant!), but I might have been a bit more informed going into it.Krista

I am so with you on that one!! With all I've learned on the board I will be much wiser in choosing my next Cavalier. But also very thankful to have had everyone through my trials and tribulations with Jake and Shelby (wouldn't trade them for the world either :D )

Maxwell&me
26th October 2006, 10:14 PM
Greetings,

I can share with you my experience with My Hogan and My Breeder.

I signed a 5 page contract before purchasing Hogan~ Our breeder made it very clear that we were purchasing a PET QUALITY dog, However~ Should his teeth come in right and his testical decends she would like the oppertunity to look at him again. Everything is spelled out~ from costs of testing and who pays what, Who shows him, her rights to use him as a stud, my rights as the buyer, and what happens if things dont fall into place. We spoke for over Two hours, covered every scenerio and have it all in writing...a signed contract.

She and I are very clear..... both didnt want any surprises, this was well thought out and documented for both of our protection....and this was before I ever paid a dime. She was fair, I was fair...I be apprehensive if I were in your position.

I find it strange that there wasnt a contract in place if this was a potential show bitch~ ( Perhaps my breeder is the exception in doing this but I feel its the right thing to do considering the situation)

Not to mention, For girls it is very serious if there are complications.~ Im not telling you what to do...but I really dont see much benifit for you if things go wrong~ and lots for Breeder if they go right...
Really just my two cents

WoodHaven
26th October 2006, 10:37 PM
A contract or a co-own is a common way to deal with a new person who wants to get into showing. A male is an easy one to co-own. Their procreative duties can be done in one day to a week. icon_whistling It is more "fun" than work too lol

judy
27th October 2006, 07:43 AM
...I am so with you on that one!! With all I've learned on the board I will be much wiser in choosing my next Cavalier.

Cathy, what would you do differently? In what ways are you wiser now?

Cathy T
28th October 2006, 03:48 PM
I just didn't know the right questions to ask and didn't see all of the testing paperwork I should have. I didn't know that Shelby's dad had an unknown history. Had I been told that I would have passed and looked for one with a known history. Also I would know better what questions to ask a breeder. I just fell in love with Jake and was so happy with him I bought Shelby basically without asking any questions.

Maxxs_Mummy
28th October 2006, 04:02 PM
I don't know your breeder -- And I am not asking (don't want to know actually). This can be a money making scheme. You risk your girls life and health and they can walk away with thousands of dollars in pups. IF your girls was the pick of the litter--- THEY should have kept her (we breed dogs to improve the breed).
~~~~who pays for the pre-breeding tests? Why would you get one pup and they get the rest??? This sounds fishy=== If they wanted to improve the breed they could take "pick" puppy for future breedings.
~~~ sorry this just has some red flags. AND by the way, most cavaliers are cute and have a great personality-- it doesn't mean they should be bred.
JMO-

Couldn't agree more with you Sandy.

Krista,

If Willow were my girl I'd be asking the breeder more than a few questions.... The first being, has she been scanning her other dogs and have Willow's parents been scanned?

Do Willow's parents also posess up to date clear eye, heart, hip and patella certificates too?

Is she going to pay for all the examinations for Willow?

Why would she need Willow for a whole 2 months? Does he honestly think Willow would want to go through something like that with anyone other than you? (Stupid woman if she does :roll: ). Also, why would she want to breed from her on her 3rd season? Imho Cavaliers shouldn't be bred that early - they are still only babies themselves :(

Maybe things are done differently in the USA but here in the UK they don't believe that any Cavalier should be bred from under the age of 2 1/2 years. I believe that this is also stated on www.cavalierhealth.org too. It is all to do with the health of the Mother and the pups and making sure they are being bred for health and not just looks.

If Willow were my baby, Krista, I would just get her spayed and then tell the breeder ;) :flwr:

Bruce H
28th October 2006, 05:11 PM
I too would be very concerned about the health, age, pedigree, etc. as others have mentioned.

Even after all that satisfied, that would be a very sweet deal for your breeder. Let's look strictly at the monetary side of this for a minute. I assume you are paying for her. So you are paying for the dog, paying for all the food, paying for all the vet bills, paying for everything up til the breeding of her. And you have all the risks associated with breeding, pregnancy and welping. In return you get 1 puppy. Not a very good deal for you in my opinion. Now if the breeder were giving you your dog at no cost, it may be something to start thinking about if there were some other clauses along with that, this was a very reputable breeder, and you had some good solid assurances this was a dog that should be bred.

BTW, the reason the breeder wanted to keep the mom for that long a period of time is that it is the breeder who has the experience in welping and raising puppies. That is about the only part of the deal I would agree with.

WillowsMom
28th October 2006, 06:16 PM
Thanks again for your responses - I was hoping some more of the breeders on the board would respond. I do have the heart, hip and eye certifications for Willow's parents, so I know she does do at least that much screening, but I don't think she does any SM screening. (And I can tell you I'm paranoid every time Willow scratches! )

I didn't realize you shouldn't breed them that young - that is good to know. In any case, I still need to talk to hubby about it again, but I think I know what my decision is - I don't want to expose Willow to any risk of a bad pregnancy, or have her go through being seperated from us for that long. Hubby is away for the weekend, the first time one of us has been away since we got her, and that's stressful enough for her - she keeps looking for him! I can't imagine how she'd feel being seperated from both of us for two months.

While the thought of a little puppy companion for Willow in a year or two was a little tempting, the risks and sacrifices associated with doing it this way just aren't worth it - maybe we'll just have to get another puppy someday!

Thanks for all your comments - I really do appreciate it.

Krista

Alison_Leighfield
28th October 2006, 06:57 PM
Krista,

I would personally be very concerned about what happened with my dog during the pregnancy/delivery etc however I would be very tempted to have her MRI scanned before I threw the whole idea out of the window....

You have good health certificates and a strong family history together with what sounds like a good breeders experience behind you both....you obviously have a good healthy dog there with some strong genes in her which your breeder is aware of. I would want her to be a bit older though...3yrs+.

If you are interested why not find a solution which suits you best, discuss it with the breeder....draw up a contract to protect you both.
Have her MRI scanned and wait a while longer until she is 3+, let the breeder supervise the covering (mating) and have her returned to you afterwards until she is due. If she has a trouble free pregnancy and you have a vet that you trust on hand then let her have the pups with you. If you are not that confident then let her return to the breeder for the welping.

You have time on your side to research what you need about breeding. Try to attend a birth and find out more about the hard work involved with breeding, once spayed your chance has passed you by...really think hard.....especially and ONLY if your little girl is scanned SM CLEAR.

It's not as if you are being irresponsible here with this possible breeding Krista... you have your breeder with you all the way. Experience and knowledge is there behind you.
If you still feel deep down it's not for you and it holds more risks than you wish to take then say so now to your breeder and enjoy your little girl together. :)

Alison, Wilts, U.K.

judy
28th October 2006, 07:11 PM
Is there an official guideline about how old parent dogs should be before breeding in terms of MVD? Is there an age prior to which it's too soon to be confident that the dogs would not carry early onset MVD, so that breeding should wait until after that age? Is there a particular age that defines early onset MVD? Or is this more of a fluctuating category without particular guidelines?

judy
28th October 2006, 07:16 PM
... I just fell in love with Jake and was so happy with him I bought Shelby basically without asking any questions.

They're a wonderful pair! i can see how you ended up with the two of them.
Are Jake and Shelby closely related?

PamH
4th December 2006, 06:22 AM
Hello. Did you end up getting Willow from the breeder who wanted a contract? How did that work out?
Thanks
Pam