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KingstonsMom
27th October 2006, 02:07 AM
I took Kingston to the vet today to see why he was having runny stools. Turns out he had a bacterial build-up from something he ate that he wasn't supposed to. No surprise there!

Anyway, I began talking with my vet about changing Kingston's dog food. I've been using Eukanuba Puppy and after lots of research decided on switching to Canidae Chicken & Rice. I picked up a bunch of sample bags of the Canidae, but haven't started Kingston on it yet because he began having the upset stomach.

Needless to say, my vet was NOT IMPRESSED. She said she had never heard of Canidae and would not recommend feeding something that isn't a "national brand product" such as Eukanuba, Hills, Royal Canin, etc. She emphasized "national brand product" several times during the conversation. She then mentioned the "Diamond" brand of dog food and told me about how it was once highly recommended by breeders and all the dog journals. However, something went terribly wrong with one of the ingredients and several dogs died from eating Diamond brand dog food. My vet says these types of foods that aren't a "national brand" have not been through enough testing to be considered safe.

So...I am stuck with the decision of what to do about Kingston's food. I was thinking about Royal Canin anyway, so maybe I'll just feed that. I know vets aren't the know-all say-all, but I do respect this woman and think she's genuine. However, just because she hasn't heard of Canidae does not mean it isn't a great food.

I'm really interested to hear what others think!

GudrunTheRed
27th October 2006, 02:17 AM
Yikes! It freaks me out that so many vets are clueless about food. If I were you I would go with your gut instinct and stick to the Canidae. If your vet is receptive to input I would print out or email this excellent Dog Food Report (http://www.lucythewonderdog.com/dogfoodreport.htm) and give it to your vet to read. I would also consider giving them a copy of the Whole Dog Journal's "Why We Like Whole Food" article which also lists their top dry dog food picks. You can download a copy of it from my website here: http://www.dilettante.info/downloads/WDJ_BestDogFood2005.pdf

Picking a healthy, wholesome food for your dog is not rocket science. It's a matter of picking food that has wholesome ingredients in the correct proportions and not too many fillers and preservatives. Many of the "Brand Name" foods have too many fillers and don't even have meat as their first ingredient and that troubles me.

Good luck!

Cathy T
27th October 2006, 02:29 AM
Where are you located? I can't imagine a vet never having heard of Canidae! As far as a "national brand"....what does she mean? CA Natural can't be bought in the grocery store but it's a well recognized brand. I think I'd look into this a little further. Definitely check to WDJ list.

Cathy Moon
27th October 2006, 02:30 AM
The dog food beginning with 'D' had a terrible problem last winter. It was due to the humidity level not being checked in the corn gluten meal that was delivered to the factory. A mold or fungus grew in the corn gluten meal which was processed into the dog food. The particular mold or fungus releases toxins, which did kill several dogs last winter. A vet saw a pattern and notified authorities, so the food was recalled fairly quickly. There were articles in all the dog magazines this year!! They basically got a slap on the wrist for that error.

After reading about this, I decided to not feed my dogs any food that contains corn gluten meal. The only exception would be if the dog had a very serious illness, since I know Hills prescription foods have corn gluten meal. If your dog has urine crystals, etc. it may be better to feed Hills than risk having surgery.

Also, some organic lawn care companies use corn gluten meal as a weed preventative. Just a warning - don't use corn gluten meal on the lawn if your dogs are on it!

I have never tried Canidae, since it is not available near me. I would not hesitate to recommend Innova, Innova Evo, California Natural, or Wellness. My vet says to check on the dog food container for AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) Dog Nutrient Profiles for All Life Stages.

Royal Canin is also a very good food. Geordie has a sensitivity to some of the ingredients, so I don't buy it, but it is a very good food. Their breeder feeds it to her dogs, and recommended it to us.

WoodHaven
27th October 2006, 02:37 AM
The dog food beginning with 'D' had a terrible problem last winter. It was due to the humidity level not being checked in the corn gluten meal that was delivered to the factory. A mold or fungus grew in the corn gluten meal which was processed into the dog food. The particular mold or fungus releases toxins, which did kill several dogs last winter. A vet saw a pattern and notified authorities, so the food was recalled fairly quickly. There were articles in all the dog magazines this year!! They basically got a slap on the wrist for that error.

After reading about this, I decided to not feed my dogs any food that contains corn gluten meal. The only exception would be if the dog had a very serious illness, since I know Hills prescription foods have corn gluten meal. If your dog has urine crystals, etc. it may be better to feed Hills than risk having surgery.

Also, some organic lawn care companies use corn gluten meal as a weed preventative. Just a warning - don't use corn gluten meal on the lawn if your dogs are on it!

I have never tried Canidae, since it is not available near me. I would not hesitate to recommend Innova, Innova Evo, California Natural, or Wellness. My vet says to check on the dog food container for AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) Dog Nutrient Profiles for All Life Stages.

Royal Canin is also a very good food. Geordie has a sensitivity to some of the ingredients, so I don't buy it, but it is a very good food. Their breeder feeds it to her dogs, and recommended it to us.

Actually two of mine have a sensitivity to Royal Canin Holistic. I don't know what in particular-- but both will get diarrhea shortly after starting it. I would LOVE to know what she meant by national brand product. Many national brands are owned by BIG human food producers--- I wonder what happens when the ingredients don't pass for human consumption?

arasara
27th October 2006, 03:13 AM
you know what's funny - I took Kosmo to the vets tonight because we were out of ear cleaner. He hasn't seen the vet in 4 months now and she came out to see how he was doing. She asked what I was feeding him and I told her "Innova:EVO" and she basically did the same thing that your vet did !! First she said "i have heard of innova, but what's evo?" then was defending eukanuba, science diet, etc. .

I just think it's ironic that this happened to both of us in the same day! lol

That being said I am completely in love with kosmo's food now - i have no struggles getting him to eat anymore which is a HUGE burden off of my back.

I would do some more research if I were you@! It took me a long time to decide for Kos, but I am very glad I made the decision that I did ! :)

KingstonsMom
27th October 2006, 03:28 AM
Where are you located? I can't imagine a vet never having heard of Canidae!

Cathy, I'm from the big state of Texas! I live in a huge city but there are only 3 stores that sell Canidae. I guess it's just not that well-known around here. ???

It's strange that my vet would tell me about the "D" dog food having bad corn, but then not recommend me using a dog food with no corn ingredients (like Canidae).

That reminds me....She had not heard of Canidae, but she knew of the other top names I mentioned (Wellness, Solid Gold, etc.). She then said Solid Gold had some controversial issues as well! She didn't go into detail on that.

WoodHaven
27th October 2006, 03:49 AM
Here is a website that kinda explains the national brand dog foods.

http://www.thedogbowl.com/PPF/category_ID/37/dogbowl.asp


Ewww

Maxwell&me
27th October 2006, 04:01 AM
I use Wellness, it causes looser stools ( Looser than say a barf diet) but their coats and energy have improved since the switch~

However.... I have been warned that the Wellness catfood can cause problems with allergys so I stay clear of the cat food from Wellness for right now. Blueberrys are one of the ingrediants, and it can cause rashes with cats.....

Lani
27th October 2006, 04:14 AM
Ewwww indeed on that bad dog food.!!!

My vet put Lucky on Eukabuba Low Residue (prescription diet) b/c of his tummy troubles ... I didn't want to do it, but Wellness and Innova were just not working to get rid of his diarrhea ... the Eukanuba is.

Now I'm very torn ... I knew it had by-products which I wasn't loving anyway, but it is really working on keeping his stool firm ...

Cathy T
27th October 2006, 04:48 AM
The one thing I will say about tummy problems is that we have had wonderful success with CA Natural chicken and rice. Jake doesn't do well on straight chicken (I tried that when he had diahhrea) but does great on this food. We were using Purina vet formula EN for gastrointestinal disorders for a while. It was fine but I really wanted to get him on something I could buy without going to my vet's office and wanted something could eat as well. The CA Natural was great.

Kingofthehouse86
27th October 2006, 05:33 AM
The one thing I like bout my vet is that he's really down to earth. He will only put a dog/cat on a presciption diet if all other regular foods aren't working... He asked me in the past what food I was feeding King, I told him Innova: Evo. He said he's heard of it, but hasen't heard to much. He said, "If King likes it, you like it, and there's no weight gain/lose or allergy problems then I'm fine with your choice of dog food" I was really surprised but what he said.

I (vagly) remember the vet my grandma had for all her cats (this is about 10 yrs ago, every cat she had the vet put on a special diet, and this is 6 cats. So that's about 5 different foods for her cats. When she found a food the cats did well on, so when the vet found out she was arguing with my grandma bout the foods she was feeding. After that my grandma switched vets.

Karlin
27th October 2006, 06:32 AM
One of the things I find really bizarre is how picky we can be about dog food -- yet unless you are buying organic meat in the US, there are huge amounts of antibiotics and hormones that are perfectly legal and quite routine in everyday chicken, beef, etc. Some of those additives are not allowed into the European food chain and thus we don't tend to see US meat in Irish or UK supermarkets. Not that European meat is all that pure though -- cattle in both the US and Europe are routinely fed meal that is made of ground up animals -- in other words, farmers feed vegetarian animals meat. Beef is now banned in feed as well as sheep because of mad cow disease fears, but all of the following are allowed to be fed to grazing animals intended for the human food chain -- lambs, cattle, etc. In other words you are likely eating beef that quite likely was fed with ground chicken, pork, or horse, or blood or gelatin (a beef by-product), or restaurant waste that includes meat ("plate waste"). This list is directly from the FDA website:

Blood and blood products
P Gelatin
P Milk products (milk and milk proteins)
P Pure porcine (pork) or pure equine (horse) protein products
P Inspected meat products, such as plate waste, which have been
cooked and offered for human food and further heat processed for
animal feed
#
The following nonmammalian protein products are exempt:
P Poultry
P Marine (fish)
P Vegetable
#
The following products are also exempt because they are not protein or
tissue:
P Grease
P Fat
P Amino acids
P Tallow
P Oil
P Dicalcium phosphate

Given that a dog will only ingest whatever we feed it for a decade-plus, but we will be eating this for 70-80+ years, I think I'd have more issues with what is considered fit for the human food chain (and thus for that matter, ending up in the premium dog foods) too. :shock:

Generally, I think most of us spend a lot more time aiming for a great diet for the dogs then sneak off for donuts and chips, cans of soda and chocolate bars. :lol:

KingstonsMom
27th October 2006, 06:57 AM
I guess it's just easier to neglect myself than it is for me to neglect a small animal who is entirely dependent on me. I feel so responsible for Kingston's well-being that I obsess over every tiny detail. Sometimes I catch myself desperately researching things on the Internet (like the possible cause of doggie diarrhea, for instance) and all of a sudden I'm like, wow I have to stop doing these things!

Hopefully I'm not the only crazy one out there! :yikes

Barbara Nixon
27th October 2006, 12:19 PM
I don't suppose you have tinned Butchers tripe over there ? Though advertised as an adult food, it is very mild; in fact lighter on the tummy than many special puppy foods. There are no artificial additives and it can be used as a complet fodd or with mixer. My boys love it , even picky Izzy and the bonus is that it's one of the cheaper products, which is also often on special offer as well.

There are certain well known brands which i would never feed; not because of the content, but the cruelty involved in the production experiments. If I get complete dried (Which I do for a change) i buy the ethical Pero from Wales or Vitalin , from Yorkshire; both being made by small companies.

WoodHaven
27th October 2006, 03:30 PM
Yes, we have canned tripe-- green tripe even. I believe the brand name is Tripett or trippet. It is the worst smelling dogfood, but the dogs love it.

Re: meats-- the USDA has decided that the hormones and antibiotics are at safe levels in the USA. (whether or not - is a totally different issue). They have come out and stated pregnant women and children should avoid (or severly limit) canned tuna(and other seafoods) due to the Mercury content. There are many areas that I am more fearful --- contaminated water, nuclear power etc... You can worry yourself into an ulcer. I just try to make the best choices for me and my family. FWIW
Sandy

moniechris
27th October 2006, 04:50 PM
I will have to say, as negative as it may be: most vets push certain brands because they sell it in their clinics. Not to mention the more they sell or recomend, they get a commission off the sale as an agreement with the food company. I read several articles about the animal-by-products in Science Diet and almost every vet in Tampa carries it and pushes it like it was a drug. I'm sure there is a link between recomending "national brands" and the commission the vets get. Brands like Wellness and Innova seem to really care about their products and they are a lot more selective about who they allow to sell it.

My shih tzu has ridiculous allergies to wheat, corn, soy, dairy and eggs so my cavaliers end up eating whatever he gets to prevent a skin break out. I feed my dogs Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul and it is pretty good. Not as good as Wellness, which I am going to switch back to because it has become more available in my area. I just have to wait because I bought a 50 pund bag of Chicken Soup last month :sl*p:

Lani
27th October 2006, 04:56 PM
I hear you - I am going to stick with this Eukanuba until the bag is done but then will probably switch to the CA Natural since it gets such rave reviews on this site.

I am just hesitant to mess with something that is working because Lucky's had such tummy troubles and it is nice to see something controlling it ... Even if it is not really up to my quality standards otherwise in terms of the bi-products, etc.

KingstonsMom
27th October 2006, 05:48 PM
My shih tzu has ridiculous allergies to wheat, corn, soy, dairy and eggs so my cavaliers end up eating whatever he gets to prevent a skin break out. I feed my dogs Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul

Doesn't Chicken Soup contain soy???

WoodHaven
27th October 2006, 06:12 PM
My shih tzu has ridiculous allergies to wheat, corn, soy, dairy and eggs so my cavaliers end up eating whatever he gets to prevent a skin break out. I feed my dogs Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul

Doesn't Chicken Soup contain soy???


Here is the list of ingredients:

Ingredients
Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, turkey meal, whole grain brown rice, whole grain white rice, oatmeal, potatoes, cracked pearled barley, millet, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), duck, salmon, egg product, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, kelp, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, chicory root extract, carrots, peas, apples, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, parsley flake. Vitamins and minerals.

moniechris
27th October 2006, 06:16 PM
Not that I know of....I've checked the ingredients and there isn't any to speak of. Soy is the worst for shih tzus, especially for my Stewie. There is powdered skim milk and eggs in the formula, but they doesn't seem to bother him. We didn't want to take him to a specialist to get him tested for specific allergies (whomping $400) so we just did the elimination diet. Soy was the biggest issue for him and we figured it out because the treats we had purchased for his training class were soy based. He his eyes teared and he scratched himself like CRAZY almost immediatly after eating it. I am just super careful about the quality of ingredients in his food. Poor little thing. I read lables for him a lot more than I do for myself.

judy
27th October 2006, 06:24 PM
PLATE WASTE??? :yuk: :*gh: :grnyuk:

i never heard of that one before, and am not sure i'm glad i did now. :?

so much for "fit for human consumption."

I do all my grocery shopping at health stores and buy organic/range fed etc whenever available, because i don't even need to know about things like plate waste to surmise that in the world as it is today, things like this are normal. no wonder people are having more degenerative diseases than they did a generation ago. And animals too. BUT, do not fear, modern medicine is striving to advance so that these by products of "civilization" can be ameliorated. they are coming up with many highly toxic new drugs that can cure the acute and visible problems caused by the environment which will cause new illness of their own down the line, and then, not to worry, they will come up with new toxic medicines for those diseases.

:?

which do you want, polio, TB, typhoid, and small pox, or diabetes, cancer, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis and crohns disease.

Plate waste! i never would've guessed that one, i must admit.

do they sterilize it? with toxic chemicals of course...

WoodHaven
27th October 2006, 06:55 PM
LOL-- There is a show called "Dirty Jobs" with Mike Rowe. He had an episode where they showed what happened to the Las Vegas Buffet surplus. I have to admit it was a fun episode. They cook it (with heat) and skim off the fat (to sell to make cosmetics) and feed the slop on dry cubed pig food and old bread.

Barbara Nixon
27th October 2006, 08:24 PM
[quote="WoodHaven"]Yes, we have canned tripe-- green tripe even. I believe the brand name is Tripett or trippet. It is the worst smelling dogfood, but the dogs love it.

The brand we have smells quite nice. It's cooked and flavoured with things like chicken.

WoodHaven
27th October 2006, 08:31 PM
[quote=WoodHaven]Yes, we have canned tripe-- green tripe even. I believe the brand name is Tripett or trippet. It is the worst smelling dogfood, but the dogs love it.

The brand we have smells quite nice. It's cooked and flavoured with things like chicken.

I am home now, it is called tripett. This has beef tripe, water, salmon, duck, garlic, menhaden fish oil glucosamine and chondroitin. I am used to Merrick canned food and most of those smell good enough to eat. This I wouldn't dare taste. And green tripe is stomach and its contents-- (acids, enzymes all the things that help a dog digest its food)--- ewwwwh

Barbara Nixon
27th October 2006, 09:17 PM
years ago, a parent at the school i worked in , bred irish setters (She was one of the first to import red and white ones). Well she fed her dogs on whole tripes fresh from the butcher. She boiled then herself , in an outhouse, they smelled terrible (so she said) but her dogs' coats were like mirrors.

ellie and charlie
10th November 2006, 07:22 PM
just red about diamond food killed 20 dogs some thing to do with mould toxins?? i posted link then red rest it went on to some bad language so deleted it.

Shay
11th November 2006, 04:22 AM
I just switched Lily to Royal Canine, which was highly recommended by the trainer at Petco. I told her she was pooping 9x a day on Science Diet which my Vet recommended (they sell it). She isn't pooping as much, but her stools are loseron the RC. Told the Vet I had switched her and he said he would rather she her on Iam's which they don't sell. I asked him why he didn't like Royal Canine, and he said he didn't know that much about it. I m so confused now about food. Another pet store highly recommended Chicken Soup, and gave me samples, but when I saw it was made by Diamond, I threw it in the trash. Where do you all buy the CA natural? I don't think I've seen that here.

KingstonsMom
11th November 2006, 06:03 AM
Shay....I wouldn't switch from Royal Canin just because of what your vet said. From what I know, Royal Canin is much much better than Iams dog food. And if you've already gotten your pup started on the RC then it's better to leave well enough alone for a while. You don't want to upset his tummy. I honestly think vets have an agenda when it comes to dog food. My vet told me to run away from Canidae just because she'd never heard of it, even though it's one of the top-rated foods out there. I trust and respect vets, but they definitely don't know all there is to know about our pets. Use your best judgment! :lol:

GusWilson
11th November 2006, 09:46 AM
My roommate has a pug and her vet did the same thing when she said that we fed our dogs Innova... she said that kibbles and bits was fine, or anything you could get in a grocery store. I said no way and you need to get a new vet... my vet raves about Innova... Gus is on the Innova Evo and is really doing great, so that is good enought for me! I think he eats better than I do!

Cathy Moon
11th November 2006, 04:52 PM
Maybe all vets don't have the time or energy to be our dogs' nutritionists and dieticians! :)

As it is, they seem to need more medical knowledge about more different species than a general practitioner, who regularly sends humans to specialists.

My vet knows very little about Innova, Wellness, etc., so she just tells me to check the pet food bag or can to make sure the food meets the AAFCO standards for all life stages. If a pet food doesn't have the AAFCO approval, she recommends choosing a different food.