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gadgetfreak
3rd November 2006, 04:19 PM
Hi everyone. My family has owned Rusty from 6 weeks old. He is now around 18 months. My wife and I were not dog people at all before but wanted our kids to grow up with dogs (I was afraid of them while growing up). Although Rusty gets a little excited with the boys, he is always very gentle and has never bitten (we have trained him that skin never goes in his mouth even when playing).

I have a few things I would like to say/ask and would rather just put it all into one thread than start multiple ones:

1) Breeder: Without using names, I went to a woman in a house near where I live in Nassau County Long Island NY who claims to get them from her family who breeds them in Ireland. We were new to the dog community so we called her Vet reference who gave a glowing recommendation. The local family-owned pet store told me she was bad news but, after all the research on the web, I knew not to buy from a pet store - so I guess I shouldn't trust their opinions on the matter either. However, after reading everything on this board, I fear that this may not have been 100% "kosher". The dog is only 1.5 so no health problems...yet and, based on stuff I read here, he is exhibiting all the charcteristics of a CKCS. There is nothing to do about it now, but I thought that I would share my experience. If people know about the breeder and can make me feel better, that would be nice. If not, it will just remain unknown. I will know for next time. I think there will be a next time as my wife and I hope to be dog owners for life.

2) When we were at the breeder we picked the biggest puppy in the litter because we knew that our 2-year old would want to "ride him like a pony". We knew we would never allow something like that but we thought a bigger dog would have a better shot against our other little devil. Anyway, 18 months later and Rusty is 30 lbs and 19" high. The vet says he is not overweight at all and perfectly healthy. As I said above, he behaves exactly as all of yours do but he is huge. Maybe another reason to suspect it is not a purebred. I couldn't find anything on this forum with a search that mentioned a 30 lb CKCS. Am I the only one?

3) As new dog owners, we got very frustrated during the first 12 months but Rusty has calmed down and behaves much better now. We still need to work on his jumping on people (remember a 19" dog reaches our chests not our legs like the small dogs) and pulling on the leash (for which I bought a harness based on what I read here). He refuses to learn how to play catch but will run around in the backyard when we play "tag".

These forums have given me a newfound love for Rusty as I seem to experience a lot of what others are going through. We are expecting child #3 in 1-2 months and hope Rusty can continue to behave with the new addition (reminds me of Lady and the Tramp).

That's all for now. Thanks for all the advice I have already read and will continue to rely on in the future.

duncans_ma
3rd November 2006, 04:28 PM
Rusty sounds like a handful to me at 30 lbs. My Duncan is under 20 and Arthur is only 6 months and about 11lbs.

There is another board member with a 35lb cav. If you search 'Monty' you should find stories and pictures.

5lb or 35lbs....these dogs are wonderful!!!!

cecily
3rd November 2006, 05:18 PM
I'm no expert on sizing etc, but cavaliers can vary greatly as you will learn from the boards. A recent thread on age / weight (also in the general discussion forum) will show you that!

Although cavaliers are boisterous and playful I'm sure it's your experience that they are almost never aggressive and will take a lot of abuse from young children without snapping. I'm sure that's one of the reasons you got one. They are the most lovable companions you could wish for, and will be faithful friends to you and your kids for life. :l*v:

If you're concerned about jumping up / playfulness would you consider taking Rusty to obedience classes? It's a great way of bonding with your dog and also teaching them basic manners 8) In my experience these dogs are so eager to please that they respond very well to training (and also they love the treats :lol: )

moniechris
3rd November 2006, 05:22 PM
Size doesn't matter. My boys are above the norm as well, Wesley is 22 pounds and Cody will most likely be the same (he is 4 months old today and weighed 13 pounds 2 weeks ago). They aren't overweight, they are just really athletic looking and tall!) It is probably a good thing that you have a bigger boy because of rowdy kids, so enjoy him for what he is: a loving playmate for your children and a happy family member for you and your wife.
I can recomend giving him something to focus on during the day to wear his energy levels out (kongs, long walks, etc) Take him to a training class! It will open a line of communication for both you and him, and you will learn useful tips as to how to control him better in regards to his jumping. We would love to see pics!! Welcome to the site!! icon_welcome

WoodHaven
3rd November 2006, 05:38 PM
Hi everyone. My family has owned Rusty from 6 weeks old. He is now around 18 months.
-----------------------------------

Wow--6 weeks old is incredibly young. Some of mine are still being weaned at that age. Did the person you bought the pup from import this pup or breed it?

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1) Breeder: Without using names, I went to a woman in a house near where I live in Nassau County Long Island NY who claims to get them from her family who breeds them in Ireland. We were new to the dog community so we called her Vet reference who gave a glowing recommendation. The local family-owned pet store told me she was bad news but, after all the research on the web, I knew not to buy from a pet store - so I guess I shouldn't trust their opinions on the matter either. However, after reading everything on this board, I fear that this may not have been 100% "kosher". The dog is only 1.5 so no health problems...yet and, based on stuff I read here, he is exhibiting all the charcteristics of a CKCS. There is nothing to do about it now, but I thought that I would share my experience. If people know about the breeder and can make me feel better, that would be nice. If not, it will just remain unknown. I will know for next time. I think there will be a next time as my wife and I hope to be dog owners for life.
--------------------------------------------------

We almost bought our first cavalier from a similar importer. My husband asked many club breeders about this person in Indiana and they all said stay away. We were very lucky-- I have heard many disturbing stories. A broker buys litters of puppies from overseas for 100-200 dollars a piece and sells them for 500+ dollars in the US.

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2) When we were at the breeder we picked the biggest puppy in the litter because we knew that our 2-year old would want to "ride him like a pony". We knew we would never allow something like that but we thought a bigger dog would have a better shot against our other little devil. Anyway, 18 months later and Rusty is 30 lbs and 19" high. The vet says he is not overweight at all and perfectly healthy. As I said above, he behaves exactly as all of yours do but he is huge. Maybe another reason to suspect it is not a purebred. I couldn't find anything on this forum with a search that mentioned a 30 lb CKCS. Am I the only one?
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I hope you mean 19inches at the head--- a cavalier should be 12-13 inches at the withers (shoulders). Yes, 30 pounds is LARGE. My largest cavalier is a male that is just over 20 pounds. I won't be breeding him because he is too large. Your paperwork should tell you who your dogs sire and dam are. Where is he registered?

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Mic
3rd November 2006, 05:58 PM
Hi Gadgetfreak!

Rusty sounds like a fun guy with a normal CKCS temperament. I agree that obedience classes are great for dogs and their owners in many ways: they help you bond, they help establish/reinforce that YOU are the alpha, they help with socialization, dealing with distractions, and of course a professional trainer will be able to determine the best techniques to motivate your dog.

Since you don't really know much about Rusty's pedigree, it's a good idea to use a vet who is very knowledgeable about Cavaliers and their specific health issues ( http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26 ).

Regarding Rusty's size and weight, Karlin posted a great site with photos of various Cavalier "waist-lines" to help determine if your dog is in proportion. Sure, your guy is big for a "typical" cavalier, but that doesn't mean he's overweight. The photos on this site really helped me.
http://www.roycroftcavaliers.com/manualfeeding.htm

And now on to some non-cavalier stuff...
I grew up in Nassau County, LI: Port Washington and then Plandome Manor (Manhasset area). Small world.

I love your name, "Gadgetfreak." What kind of gadgets are you into?

Congrats on the impending arrival of baby #3! What an exciting time for you and your family!

Barbara Nixon
3rd November 2006, 06:26 PM
Here's my little lad. all 35lbs of him and skinny , too.

He isn't from a puppy farm, but a throwback to the 50s. Someone in another cavalier group posted an old photo yesterday and the dogs in it looked like Monty. Someone guessed the line and it's that of monty's maternal grandmother: Sunninghill.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/BarbaraNixon/Img_0163.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/BarbaraNixon/001meand.jpg

Karlin
3rd November 2006, 07:31 PM
I am pretty sure I know what broker you are talking about and she is horrible. None of these dogs are from relatives -- that is her usual line and the usual line used by brokers importing from backyard breeder and puppy farms in Ireland. She has been the subject of some class action lawsuits as well. Here in Ireland, we are working to influence new legislation to help cut off the trade to people like this woman.

You can read more about who these people are and where they get their puppies here, in an article I wrote for the Irish Times (I'm a journalist with that paper):

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=366

The breed standard is 13-18 lbs and most dogs bred by good breeders would fall within that range or just a tiny bit outside. It would be very rare to get a really big dog like yours from a good breeder, though they do ppp up from time to time. But I have homed many cavaliers of this or similar size through my Irish Cav Rescue. :) There's just more to love! I have two like this at the moment. When breeders stop breeding for conformation to the breed standard, size tends to go up.

Now: I ONLY say all this so that you have the information to avoid such people in the future if you ever want another dog. :) Sounds like you have a beautiful big boy and you should enjoy him.

It does sound like you really need to find a good obedience class though. Dogs learn overall politeness and self control from such classes and from you taking the time to train them. A good class is really fun for both of you! Look for a class that is based on rewards and positive training, and avoid any where they want to use choke chains and what are called 'leash corrections' (if you can find one run by an APDT certified trainer, that's a good start). You should do this right away BEFORE you have a baby come into the house because the baby will take lots of time and focus! Plus you want a cavalier that is fully ready to love that new bundle too. Always keep in mind that a dog should never, ever be left alone with young children but especially, babies -- and that you will want to be very familiar with ways of managing a dog and new baby at the same time. :) There are some great links here with all the advice and guidance to get you on your way:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1101

And welcome to the board! icon_welcome

gadgetfreak
3rd November 2006, 07:48 PM
Some clarifications in response to your posts.

1) We got Rusty at 16 weeks not 6. That was a typo.
2) He actually is not that active. As is typical for the breed (as I have read), he is content lying next to us the whole day as long as he has company. There are times I actually try to get him to run around so he gets some excersize. Usually, I take him for a nightly walk but if it is raining, I try to get him to just run around the back yard. Sometimes he seems so lazy.

In fact, it is a usual situation when Rusty is sleeping or playing and my 3 year old takes his doctor's kit to give him a checkup. Rusty either stays calm and lets him do the checkup or will actually take his toy and move.

3) We had a trainer come to our house for 6 sessions when he was 6 months old. He taught us a lot but the correction we were taught was to jerk the leash and scream "hay". We found that my wife and I were just screaming all the time and it was affecting us and the kids extremely negatively. We have since changed our correction to a light "gasp" which seems effective. As I said, he is pretty well behaved now so it is not such an issue.

4) I will try to upload some pictures when I have a chance. I know I am new to this and you will all probably kill me, but to me, all these (blenheim) dogs looks the same :?. All adorable.

5) My "breeder" registered through the Universal Kennel Club which I now realize will take money from anyone. I have accepted the fact that I probably made an error in using my "breeder" but I didn't know at the time and relied on the recommendation of a local vet. I still may have gotten a great, healthy, purebred and it pains me to think he was part of a puppy farm so I don't try to think about it. When and if there is another dog we will do better due diligence. For now, we will continue to love Rusty no matter where he came from and hope he lives a long healthy life.

6) My name gadgetfreak is what I came up with when I joined my first forums last year for the Treo Smartphone. I just use the same name for all the other forums I have joined. In addition to the Treo, I am very interested in PCs and just bought my kids their first mac (in party so I could learn how to use it too).

7) From what my wife explained to me, the vet said he is 19" to his neck line (the usual place to measure - where everyone else's is 12" or so). He truly is huge.

I really appreciate everyone making me feel better in accepting my acknowledgement that I may have gone the wrong way this time but offering suggestions for now and any future dogs. Thanks for everything.

SHANO
3rd November 2006, 08:03 PM
I watched the Dog Whisperer or something the other day and the guy used "shhh" to the dogs. Seemed to work really well. I will be using that when I get my Blenheim boy in January.

Sorry that you were duped by someone. I think it was only when I began looking into Rhodesian Ridgebacks (thanks to the dog shows on Animal Planet) that I started learning about breeders and the whole puppy mill industry etc. I think that's also maybe why I stick with more rare breeds because they shouldn't pop up in pet stores. As well as, it's nice, tight knit groups that all seem to know about each other.

It's hard to get out information from breeders about other breeders, because they all feel it's not right to bad talk someone. You'll only know the good breeders because they will all praise each other and that's what I looked a lot into.

Given, the breeder I have now chosen, I'm still looking on more information for. She doesn't have a website which makes it hard. But I've done extensive talking on the phones and e-mails. As well I have pictures of her and her few dogs. Professional pictures of her dogs. As well as pics of the sire winning an AKC Championship. I will also be meeting her and the parents of my puppy when I fly out to go get my puppy.

If I came to find out she wasn't an ethical breeder, I plan on just ditching my deposit and finding another. But so far so good.

Ok, so I just totally went off on a tangent.

Let us know more about your pup. This is a great community with lots of great info!

Barbara Nixon
3rd November 2006, 08:31 PM
Sorry , but I don't like your 'trainer' 's methods. They sound quite barbaric.

My Monty is 35lbs and 17" at the shoulder. appart from a mild heart murmur he's very healthy for a dog who's eleven on 14th November.

matties mum
3rd November 2006, 08:35 PM
Your dog is loverly I would love to own him ---Aileen

gadgetfreak
3rd November 2006, 08:39 PM
Sorry , but I don't like your 'trainer' 's methods. They sound quite barbaric.

My Monty is 35lbs and 17" at the shoulder. appart from a mild heart murmur he's very healthy for a dog who's eleven on 14th November.

I have read other books which also mentions this "snap" method. It is not harmful just a way to startle. But I didn't like the method because of the yelling. Our environment was so stressed that we were actually debating giving the dog back. But, a switch to the "gasp" (no leash anymore in the house so no snap) has calmed everyone down.

cecily
3rd November 2006, 08:43 PM
3) We had a trainer come to our house for 6 sessions when he was 6 months old. He taught us a lot but the correction we were taught was to jerk the leash and scream "hay". We found that my wife and I were just screaming all the time and it was affecting us and the kids extremely negatively. We have since changed our correction to a light "gasp" which seems effective. As I said, he is pretty well behaved now so it is not such an issue.

:yikes :yikes :yikes
We've found rewards based training works really well. If Tandie wants something now she immediately sits and gazes up with those big eyes as she has found that is what works with us (and obviously we've encouraged it!) :lol:

Nancy
3rd November 2006, 08:57 PM
Why do people go to obscure breeders and hope that they are OK> I just spoke with a woman today who had put a $250 deposit on the elusve female blenheim. She admitted visiting the breeder and finding the conditions filthy, the puppies were too filthy to even pick up! Now I am not a clean freak but my litter of 9 is always clean with fresh bedding several times a day if needed. I couldn't stand it if they were living in dirt. I don't understand at all why someone would go ahead and GIVE a deposit on a puppy from her, top dollar I may add. This breeder has been trying to get good dogs, in fact , had approached me about a puppy, but no one will do it, we've heard she has way too many dogs and they get ill, she's AKC only , not CKCSC, and puts all kinds of crazy clubs on her site. On her website she touts all the lingo on health testing, yet this woman asked her to see the cert on heart before picking up her puppy today, and she admitted she hadn't done it, she didn't want to expose her pregnant girl to the germs of a vet office! I explained to the woman that you don't even think of breeding until it's done, and she should absolutely get her deposit back...well, she did after she spoke to me, at first the breeder had refused. But why are people even considering these kinds of breeders when there are so many good ones? Saving even $500 is nothing in the long run. I think this breeder sells a LOT of puppies. Probably because she always has a litter available.

gadgetfreak
3rd November 2006, 09:30 PM
Well, I can only speak from experience as a new dog owner, not just of a CKCS but of any dog. Our lady didn't ask for a deposit. We went there and saw the litter. The place looked good but we didn't know to look at where the dogs were living (she brought them to us). She fed us the line about her family in Ireland and, after we checked out her referral (a local vet), we had no reason not to believe her. It didn't dawn on us that not seeing the living conditions, the fact that she had puppies when we asked and that she registered through someone other than the AKC was a problem. I pride myself on doing research before hand and, as a potential new dog owner, this situation seemed convenient but was not a red flag. How she got a vet to vouch for her is amazing. Do they have to take an oath similar to the hypocratic oath of MDs? If so, vouching for a "breeder/broker" like this must go against that oath. What's done is done. Only with better education can this problem be avoided. Maybe popular and reputable websites can have a better list of things to look for and to avoid:

1) If they won't show you living area.
2) If they breed more than one/two type(s) of dog(s).
3) The UKC will take money from anyone.

BTW, I have met two other people in my local petco who got dogs from the same place and are thrilled. We may just be lucky but it is sad to think that I promoted this type of brokering.

Nancy
3rd November 2006, 09:37 PM
I also met someone at my Petco who got a dog from the infamous "Jane" who has been prosecuted and I believe still at large. My question remains, WHY? Why do people seek out these websites instead of good breeders? we're not all haughty snobs who won't give people the time of day, really. I even brought to someone's attention recently that they were purchasing from someone with a lot of red flags and they STILL went forward with it, because it was "too late"? It was inconvenient,to start all over, and they wanted a puppy. So that just puts money in the pocket of these people who are ruining the breed. These puppies don't even look the way they should, or much worse. I am not condeming you personally, really, I think I'm frustrated with this woman I spoke to today, luckily , she saw the light, but this breeder is still selling a LOT of puppies as is yours.

gadgetfreak
3rd November 2006, 09:46 PM
Well, I agree with almost everything you said and I am in no way defending the woman I used but someone else used the same phrase you did "she was prosecuted and still at large". This woman has a website, a phone number and lives in a very nice middle-class neighborhood in Long Island. If authorities wanted to find her, it would be pretty easy.

Now, whether what she is doing is officially considered "illegal" may be the current problem. I also agree that people that have been shown the light should try to rectify their errors but people like me didn't see all this until it really was too late.

Again, education and publicity is the only way to get these brokers to stop. But, I assume they are successful for, as you said, there continues to be a demand. From an economics perspective, perhaps reputable breeders can't meet demand and these breeders are providing a "good product" (i.e. relatively healthy dogs that behave according to the breed standard) so there aren't that many complaints. Again, I am not advocating on their behalf, but this may be the unfortunate reality.

matties mum
3rd November 2006, 11:49 PM
Why do people go to obscure breeders and hope that they are OK> I just spoke with a woman today who had put a $250 deposit on the elusve female blenheim. She admitted visiting the breeder and finding the conditions filthy, the puppies were too filthy to even pick up! Now I am not a clean freak but my litter of 9 is always clean with fresh bedding several times a day if needed. I couldn't stand it if they were living in dirt. I don't understand at all why someone would go ahead and GIVE a deposit on a puppy from her, top dollar I may add. This breeder has been trying to get good dogs, in fact , had approached me about a puppy, but no one will do it, we've heard she has way too many dogs and they get ill, she's AKC only , not CKCSC, and puts all kinds of crazy clubs on her site. On her website she touts all the lingo on health testing, yet this woman asked her to see the cert on heart before picking up her puppy today, and she admitted she hadn't done it, she didn't want to expose her pregnant girl to the germs of a vet office! I explained to the woman that you don't even think of breeding until it's done, and she should absolutely get her deposit back...well, she did after she spoke to me, at first the breeder had refused. But why are people even considering these kinds of breeders when there are so many good ones? Saving even $500 is nothing in the long run. I think this breeder sells a LOT of puppies. Probably because she always has a litter available. When I brought my first cavalier Mattie I went to somewere I thought of as ok but little did I know what the place was but a puppy-farm or if you are in the USA a puppy mill the first thing I did was have my Vet check him to find at 8?weeks old if that that he had a bad heart but to me he stay we me till he die I then started my seach for a breeder to buy from to get from one breeder that what did you expect when you brought rubbish from there at the time I did not want my Mattie called rubbish so the next breeder I called listen to what had happen she was loverly and said not everyone is like the first breeder after Mattie had died that is were my Rocky came from were I saw him and his mother together so I knew that she was O K and he was K C resistered---Aileen

Karlin
4th November 2006, 03:18 AM
OK, let's talk training here>


We had a trainer come to our house for 6 sessions when he was 6 months old. He taught us a lot but the correction we were taught was to jerk the leash and scream "hay". We found that my wife and I were just screaming all the time and it was affecting us and the kids extremely negatively.

This technique is not simply meant to startle (though that's what such trainers always say), it is meant to both hurt and scare the dog. You know how it affected your family negatively because you were yelling all the time? That's how it affects a dog too -- makes a dog as upset and nervous as it makes you yelling at him all the time. This (and the approaches the [expletive deleted] Dog Whisperer does) are training methods from the era when it was believed you had to cow your dog into behavioural submission. All that noise and snapping causes anxiety and fear, not obedience or a willingness to want to do what YOU want. As anyone who was at our group cavalier class last Sunday saw -- dogs learn incredibly fast when they are rewarded, not punished, for figuring out what you WANT, as opposed to being punished for what you DON'T want. In this they are just like people. They learn fast when learning is fun! And their owners have a great time and all during the class or any home session, tales will be wagging, not down between the dog's legs. :)

Now: Imagine if someone wanted you to put a cup away in a certain cupboard but would not tell you what they wanted you to do, and would not even nod to encourage you each time you got a step closer to accomplishing the task. Instead, imagine they have a rope around your neck and every time you DON'T make a move that directly gets you putting that cup back in the cupboard, you are jerked on the neck and the person shouts NO! It would be pretty darn confusing AND scary AND might even make you mad as you'd have not the faintest idea of what you are supposed to do to get it right. That's exactly what happens to a dog with punsihment-base training, which is even less able to reason out what the person is probably trying to get them to do.

More on why you don't want to use these methods, and why Cesar Milan makes a lot of trainers want to put a choke chain on his neck and snap him around for a while:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4515

Separately from the general training philosophy: please folks, do not use methods that require leash pops/jerks/snaps -- even if you believe these are useful methods for dogs generally, they are totally inappropriate and potentially dangerous for cavaliers. Given that at least about half of all cavaliers probably already have neck syrinxes -- eg syringomyelia (going by consistent results on research samples) -- even if they are not symptomatic, imagine what jerking them around by the neck is likely to do. That's why a lot of neurologists feel all cavaliers should be walked and trained on harnesses, not collars -- while there is no direct evidence some neurologists believe you may cause symptomatic problems to arise by placing pressure on and aggravating the neck area. If that is the case the very last thing you want to do is to be jerking a cavalier as training punishment. :(

Karlin
4th November 2006, 03:26 AM
This woman has a website, a phone number and lives in a very nice middle-class neighborhood in Long Island. If authorities wanted to find her, it would be pretty easy.

And she has been charged but it can be hard to effectively bring charges. Ypu could easily attempt a prosecution for getting a dog that was supposed to be breed standard but is twice the breed standard, for example -- and under false pretences, because she does NOT get her dogs from relatives. She has been pursued under lemon laws. But she makes so darn much from selling cavaliers that I hate to tell you, cost about $50-100 directly from breeders and puppy farms in Ireland, shipping them at almost nothing from Ireland (I have been told this woman's son actually works for the airlines and gets them shipped free) and then charging you nearly 20 times what her costs were -- she can laugh all the way to the bank as she pays off fines. She is one of the ones we would really love to shut down over here and I know her website and some very sad tales of puppies bought from her.

The problem with brokers and BYBs is that they just hire a lawyer and are back in business in no time. There's another one in Idaho just the same (who regularly threatens me with lawsuits because I have posted stories about how her dogs were confiscated -- and returned to her by the police who couldn;t be bothered to prosecute) and one who left the midwest when she was successfully prosecuted by the state attorney general to avoid the fine/jail time. They resurface under other names sometimes or they just clear their fines and are back selling in no time. :( Prosecuting this type of deception and fraud isn't at the top of the list in most jurisdictions.

One general warning -- if anyone is thinking of buying a cavalier from anyone who has the word 'Celtic', 'Shamrock', or 'Irish' in their Kennel name or the name of their business, or who has little shamrocks or leprechaun figures on their webpage, or who claims their relative in Ireland breeds so they can import at lower cost, or that their dogs come from 'champion Irish and English lines', run, as fast as possible. :yikes

WoodHaven
4th November 2006, 03:29 AM
Well, I agree with almost everything you said and I am in no way defending the woman I used but someone else used the same phrase you did "she was prosecuted and still at large". This woman has a website, a phone number and lives in a very nice middle-class neighborhood in Long Island. If authorities wanted to find her, it would be pretty easy.
product" (i.e. relatively healthy dogs that behave according to the breed standard) so there aren't that many complaints. Again, I am not advocating on their behalf, but this may be the unfortunate reality.

The breeder/broker in LI is not the infamous Jane--- Jane (the name Jane was only one of her names) moved from one state to another. IT was said that she chased people (inspectors) off her property with a shot gun. Nice byb--- Sandy

Karlin
4th November 2006, 03:34 AM
No, this is another one I am thinking of. But I do recall the notorious Jane too! This one I'm thinking of is also notorious, and now lists her vet reference on her ads -- a new touch to make her look more legit I guess; that wasn;t there last time I visited one of her ads. I wonder what he gets paid for shilling for her imports. :x Lots of vets over here make a nice packet doing the same to clear them for export.

Sigh.

I know people who have had a lot of problems with her. :| We may not all be talking about the same person of course, but in general, such people just want to take advantage of those who either know nothing, or who do research, know a bit to ask some of the right questions, but not enough to to know how to filter their song and dance. That can be really hard to decode and it takes time to learn what to watch out for!

Cathy T
4th November 2006, 04:15 AM
Karlin - I love your example of putting a cup in a cupboard. This is what sold me on my current trainer. She did a demonstration of a correction at a meeting and used a member as an example. She the member touched the wrong thing she yelled "no" and stuck her finger in her face. You should have seen the member's face turn red. When asked how that felt she said "horrible!! Oh that hurt!!" Then she had her do the exercise again and lead with her gentle direction to get what she wanted. That will stick with me forever!!!!

Our dogs WANT to please us...all we have to do is give them the gentle direction as to what we want. Lee says "you CANNOT punish a dog for doing what a dog does" I love this!! She also reminds us that we are not teaching our dog to sit...they already know how to do that...what we are doing is attaching our language to their behavior. She describes it as teaching a foreign language to someone who doesn't know word one of our language. Show and guide.

SHANO
4th November 2006, 05:21 AM
Karlin, thank you for the great information. I thought the "shh" thing was good because that's what he was doing, but apparently not. I think I'm going to go where Sandy at WoodHaven is suggesting for training.

Oh, and I was totally into a breeder near here in the start of my search because she had puppies for $1200 and talked about this whole Celtic and Irish thing. I'm SURE you know who I'm talking about. But it was interesting, sure enough when I said that we'd want to come there first to see the parents, I NEVER HEARD FROM HER AGAIN. I'm sure the breeders in my area know who I'm talking about. What can be done about that?? First timers can totally get sold into her website! Thank God I searched longer and learned more and had an extensive talk with a very nice breeder in Grayslake and I learned so much more about everything.

Darn millers! I have that ladies address (the bad one). I'd love to just drive past there and see what it's like...

Dee
4th November 2006, 03:21 PM
I think it is very difficult when you decide to buy your first dog to do the "right thing". I thought I was really doing my research, but there is so much out there on the internet, so many different opinions and misinformation from friends and family, it is easy to make mistakes. Audrey came from someone who I believe now is a backyard breeder and we had her shipped! Would I do that now-NEVER! I wish I had found these boards before purchasing but that was not the case. The same can be said about training. I was lucky enough to be blessed from the start with a great trainer/pet sitter who really educated me. However before that I read a dog training book that advocated leash correction and the like.

I guess the key is to keep learning all you can. I know I will do a better job when we get another dog from all the great advice from the folks on these boards.

Anyway Rusty sounds like a great guy even if he is a big fellow!!!

Cathy Moon
4th November 2006, 04:15 PM
I would NEVER, ever buy a cavalier from anyone who advertises, whether it be on a 'Pets for You' type website, a dog magazine, or the newspaper! This type of advertising should put up a red flag for you! I would also not buy from a breeder just because they have a website.

The best way to find a reputable breeder is to attend dog shows and talk to the breeders. Buy the dog show book; it will have names of cavalier breeders in the index. Call several of the breeders and ask them for names of other reputable breeders when searching for a puppy. It is easier to find a reputable breeder by word of mouth than by any form of advertising! When we started our search for a cavalier, we made at least 20-30 phone calls, then drove 8 hours to get her. We could have gotten on a waiting list, but we chose to drive a long way for a puppy that was available.

laurenlyn1
4th November 2006, 09:55 PM
One general warning -- if anyone is thinking of buying a cavalier from anyone who has the word 'Celtic', 'Shamrock', or 'Irish' in their Kennel name or the name of their business, or who has little shamrocks or leprechaun figures on their webpage, or who claims their relative in Ireland breeds so they can import at lower cost, or that their dogs come from 'champion Irish and English lines', run, as fast as possible.

Thank you Karlin. I'm not sure this was sorta directed to me to read, but I did. I know that I had asked you a question a while back and this basically answers that. I really want to thank you for all that hard work that you do with this site and educating us on so many things. I really wish i would have found this sooner and it seems that a lot of others would have also. i will just have to take what i know now and move on for the next time.

gadgetfreak
5th November 2006, 02:19 AM
After reading all this, it is great to know that I am not alone. We all thought we did the proper research and, only after we have been immersed in cavalier ownership, did we learn from our mistakes. Unfortunately, I fear the people on this site are just a small minority of CKCS owners. Many I know are happy to have a family dog and won't learn anything from their mistakes. As I said, if the demand is there, these brokers will continue to operate.

In regards to training and the leash snap, your example of a cup in a cupboard is good for positive reinforcement. But, how does that work when the dog jumps up for food at the table or on a guest or even bites/nips a hand (I won't even mention the "humping" of my children despite the fact he is almost 2 and nuetered at 6 months)? I am curious to know how you show a dog that they are doing something wrong considering all the books I read and my trainer recommend the snap method.

Thanks for the advice.

Cathy T
5th November 2006, 02:22 AM
Our trainer recommends a quick verbal correction "ah ah" and then giving a different command such as sit, stay, down, etc. You are correcting the inapproriate behavior and giving an appropriate action. This is a way of guiding your dog and showing disapproval at what you don't want and then giving them something to do that you do want.

Nisha
5th November 2006, 04:44 AM
:shock:

Dee
5th November 2006, 04:50 AM
We took Audrey to a behavorist for some difficult behaviors mostly having to do with separation anxiety. But he said something to me that made lots of sense. He said, " She needs to learn that when she exhibits the behavior you want good things happen". Those good things being treats and praise. I am finding if I keep that in mind it helps me figure out what to do. Small example- If she barks to follow me out the door I tell her to sit, stay. She responds and gets treats and praise. Well, it is working even though it takes some patience. Audrey also at times jumps up at the table. She now has a bed close by. We started by giving her treats luring her to the bed. We worked on "go lie down"(on the bed). Now, if she begs at the table we say no, "go lie down" and do our best to ignore her. I am happy to say she almost always now goes to the bed and lies down. She then gets praise. Treats are no longer necessary. It takes a lot of patience and faith in the process but we are getting some results after hanging in there with it.

SHANO
5th November 2006, 06:48 PM
Our trainer recommends a quick verbal correction "ah ah" and then giving a different command such as sit, stay, down, etc. You are correcting the inapproriate behavior and giving an appropriate action. This is a way of guiding your dog and showing disapproval at what you don't want and then giving them something to do that you do want.

That is the best thing I could've read. That's the perfect way to put it. I will definitely be using that method. Thanks!

loco4cocoa
2nd January 2007, 07:37 PM
Your Monty looks so much like our Melvin I couldn’t believe it. They must be of the same mix, although we have no clue what that is. When we got him at 9 weeks he looked like any other cavalier pup, but once he grew out it was obvious he was not. He is 42 pounds and stands almost 18 inches at the shoulder. A year later when we showed him to the people where we bought him (another long story), they gave us another pup for free (Mickey, the tricolor we also have). There must be some kind of Springer in him, but we don’t know for sure. Melvin is a great dog and companion, but very opposite of Mickey in his behavior in that he is extremely active, very playful, very expressive, and very vocal. He will play fetch like our golden retriever used to, and follow us around everywhere, being totally curious about everything, rather than just sit around and look pretty, which is what Mickey does. He will also watch TV very intently, and when the Animal Planet station is on he will growl and bark at anything with 4 legs, going around the back of the TV to look for them. He also does howl when we leave, and often howls even when we are home, over nothing. It lasts about 10 seconds, and we can’t stop him in the middle. He will just look up at you as if he’s really yelling at you. I saw in your post that someone else posted some pictures of similar looking dogs. Can you send me that link?

http://www.geocities.com/lokosllc/DSC07038ar2.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/lokosllc/DSC03006r2.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/lokosllc/DSC01549r2.JPG


Here's my little lad. all 35lbs of him and skinny , too.

He isn't from a puppy farm, but a throwback to the 50s. Someone in another cavalier group posted an old photo yesterday and the dogs in it looked like Monty. Someone guessed the line and it's that of monty's maternal grandmother: Sunninghill.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/BarbaraNixon/Img_0163.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/BarbaraNixon/001meand.jpg

My Wesley
2nd January 2007, 10:15 PM
Holy cow! They are VERY strikingly similar! Look like siblings to me!

arasara
3rd January 2007, 01:43 AM
wow they do look alike.. maybe yours could be a throwback as well loco4cocoa?

gocamping
3rd January 2007, 01:59 AM
After reading all this, it is great to know that I am not alone. We all thought we did the proper research and, only after we have been immersed in cavalier ownership, did we learn from our mistakes. Unfortunately, I fear the people on this site are just a small minority of CKCS owners. Many I know are happy to have a family dog and won't learn anything from their mistakes. As I said, if the demand is there, these brokers will continue to operate.

In regards to training and the leash snap, your example of a cup in a cupboard is good for positive reinforcement. But, how does that work when the dog jumps up for food at the table or on a guest or even bites/nips a hand (I won't even mention the "humping" of my children despite the fact he is almost 2 and nuetered at 6 months)? I am curious to know how you show a dog that they are doing something wrong considering all the books I read and my trainer recommend the snap method.

Thanks for the advice.

I am sure that there are more experts on the board than myself. I am also a lab owner, so I understand a big dog jumping at 65lbs. One thing we do our best with Riley is too read her signs. We try to prevent the bad behavior. So, when someone arrives we get her in a sit/stay. Sometimes the stay is not reliable but we are working on this. Before her front feet leave the ground, I am saying....ahh, ahh. Then I give her a sit command. If she doesn't sit, I ignore she is really getting this. We made mistakes so we are re-teaching.

I find you learn something with every dog ownership, just like kids!