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View Full Version : Cockalier????



estelle
5th November 2006, 03:59 PM
A number of people have commented on Charlie saying that he looks more like a cocker or springer spaniel due to his long nose and long legs :yikes even the vet said that he's a poor specimen! at the time I thought that she meant he was maybe the runt of the litter due to all his problems/illnesses, that didn't bother me as I love him to bits.
As some of you may know we have our doubts about the breeder, we don't actually think that she's a reputable one!
I must admit I too thought his nose/legs were a little on the long side but hoped that he would fill out and get into proportion, it's playing on my mind that maybe he isn't a purebred cavalier and is in fact a Cockalier :yikes I've done a little investigating and he does look like one of these Cockalier's (cavalier/cocker spaniel cross), this is obviously a shock and would maybe explain his unusual behaviour yesterday and his constant health problems?
Surely someone can't get away with doing this??
I've contacted the people where we got him from explaining our concerns and have asked for telephone numbers of Charlies brothers & sisters just to see how they've been, when I asked of the health of his parents he didn't know if the father had been properly checked out only for the eye's, I must admit we didn't actually see the dad, she did say that she had asked for photos but didn't have any yet :?
I can't get my head around any of this :x
What would you do in this situation?
Thanks in advance

*Pauline*
5th November 2006, 04:26 PM
All I know on the subject is that when I was phoning breeders to find a Cavalier, two of them told me they judge at dog shows as well as show and breed them and have gone to court to help people who were sold a Cockalier though they thought they were getting a Cavalier. If you were conned you can take them to court. But I know you will love your dog all the same. Can i see a pic please?

estelle
5th November 2006, 04:28 PM
Im just trying icon_whistling

estelle
5th November 2006, 04:30 PM
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e92/thetesters/IMG_0386.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e92/thetesters/IMG_0354.jpg

Hope this works

estelle
5th November 2006, 04:32 PM
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e92/thetesters/IMG_0354.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e92/thetesters/IMG_0386.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e92/thetesters/charlie-1.jpg

matties mum
5th November 2006, 04:42 PM
I think he looks like what my vet calleds the older cavaliers which were a bit bigger in the 50/60--- I always say that I put Barney in a grow-bag at night because he is so big---Aileen

Barbara Nixon
5th November 2006, 05:02 PM
His upper face is rather cocker-like, but then my Monty is like a springer. However, both his parents were kc registered and there are 1950s photos in the old text books, which look just like him and their affixes are in his pedigree.

On the postive side, when our old vet saw Monty, she said she was pleased to see one of the old larger type, as they are healthier. She was right, as he's only had the odd ear infection and two teeth removed in eleven years. He has a murmur, now, but it doesn't bother him.

Your dog is only a puppy and so will look out of proportion legwise (cavaliers mostly appear to grow in bursts in one part of the body-My Teddy being an exception, as he's never been leggy). When his body grows sideways and his feathering comes in , things will even out.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/BarbaraNixon/Img_0265dafty.jpg

If you'd like to pm me details of his pedigree, I can tell you whether I recognise any of the older larger lines.

Barbara

Maxxs_Mummy
5th November 2006, 05:03 PM
His legs do look quite long but that would tie in with his age. He's not fully grown yet and is going through his gangly teenage years.

He just looks like a larger Cavalier to me.

Lisa_T
5th November 2006, 05:39 PM
The nose certainly says 'Cocker' to me- I've owned one before. If he is a Cockalier, I don't see that as being a reason for the snapping. Most cockers have beautiful temperaments, and are cheerful and gentle- but hyper! I know there's been some bad press lately, but a good cocker should have a merry, gentle, loving temperament.

Karlin
5th November 2006, 06:17 PM
He could be a cross or just a cavalier that has moved well away from breed standard. Often such breeders have the dogs all roaming around or they get them from puppy farms where they are all roaming around -- rescue friends of mine and wardens I know have seen dogs all mixed together, differtent breeds, where females are in heat!! So it wouldn't be hard for other breeds to slip in sometimes. I had a cavalier in rescue two years ago that was probably a cav/coker mix but the family were sure it was a pure cav and that is how it was sold to them. :|

Proper kennel club registrations worldwide really mean nothing regarding the bona fides of any breeder though -- it is only the very basic starting point of checking that a breeder might be doing all the right things. Almost every cavalier also has the old champion dogs in their pedigrees by the time you go back a few generations -- but if there are no champions (eg actively shown dogs) in the first two pedigrees, then it is likely the breeder is just breeding registered dogs and selling them, and doesn;t breed for conformation. That's when you really want to make sure the health clearances are there and that you can see the cardiac clearances etc.

The snapping really is NOT unusual for the situation your dog was in. Sitting on a lap can make a dog especially defensive and as noted several times, children should not approach at face level and not try to hug and kiss a dog. His behaviour weas absolutely normal for a dog that was showing it simply did not like this behaviour, in this circumstance. It is extremely unlikely a cross would have any sort of particular temperament problem. Very few cockers have problems anyway and it is rare to show up in a pure cocker with the problem at this young age. I'd simply follow the guilddelioens that were posted were you will have seen several well respected trainers giving the exact same advice on what causes snapping and the precautions to take with children around dogs. :thmbsup:

The important thing with your fellow now is 1) that you love him so what does it matter whether he is breed standard or not and 2) you now know a lot more about what to do when looking for a reputable breeder if you decide to get another dog in future, and can give informed and helpful advice to others, based on your own experience. Many here have had just the same experience as you, so don;t feel too badly. It is not right that there are people who are so willing to take advantage of puppy buyers. Getting a dog, more than many other 'markets' I know of, is definitely a place where the buyer needs to beware.

AT
5th November 2006, 07:27 PM
I think more mixing goes on than people realise ( not just in puppyfarms either :roll: ) i've seen a lot of odd cavaliers , wholecolours often look like cockers ( easier to get a red or b/t cocker mate? ) & blens look like welsh springers. because they have bigger litters. :roll:

my sister has a cav who i'm sure has some papillon in her , she is very dainty with a curled tail & is not a cavalier temperment, very yappy & doesn't like strangers.

For puppyfarms as long as they look like a cute cavalier as pups it doesn't matter what the adult is like
kc papers can be easily swapped between dogs so they are no garauntee ( a few years ago someone was advertising to buy papers :yikes )

But on the other hand cavaliers where a mix of breeds to start with so a spaniel cross isnt straying that far from the original & any amount of cavalier is lovable isnt it ;) ( as long as they havent mixed staffie or something in ;) )

judy
5th November 2006, 07:34 PM
adorable boys--Monty and Charlie. thanks for the pix. so glad to hear charlie has been healthy and strong, love to hear that. Monty looks super in his decor! I think i know why he has remained so youthful. :)

can you tell me where i could see old textbooks that would show how cavaliers have looked over the years? Are they in public libraries? That sounds very interesting, i'd like to see how fashions have changed over time, to see trends. Ive read about these changes, but the articles invariably, frustratingly, have not included photos to illustrate what is being described (on websites i've found).

to me (with no experience judging the look of a cavalier other than photos i've seen on this board, and the occasional cavalier i see in person around town) Charlie looks within the range of a cavalier, i've seen several others on this board who have the same kind of face and nose.

(of the three, the third picture of charlie looks the most like a different breed to me.)

mishmosh
5th November 2006, 08:12 PM
My old cavalier was a big un !

He was cocker spaniel size. I swear he had some cocker/springer blood in him and he was a throw back !!!
:lol:

Barbara Nixon
5th November 2006, 08:37 PM
can you tell me where i could see old textbooks that would show how cavaliers have looked over the years? Are they in public libraries? That sounds very interesting, i'd like to see how fashions have changed over time, to see trends. Ive read about these changes, but the articles invariably, frustratingly, have not included photos to illustrate what is being described (on websites i've found).



The only one I've seen in the public library is the old one by Lady Forward, but I've looked at others in Pets at Home. The Blenheimon the front of Sheila Smith's book 'Cavalier king Charles Spaniels Today' is Salador Crismark, who's Izzy's paternal grandfather (fame).

The best for old photos , many of which are from private collections, and are not to be seen anywhere else, is Margaret Workman's 'The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel'. You can get it new or second hand from Amazon. Over here Amazon has used copies as cheap as £2.

judy
5th November 2006, 09:47 PM
...The best for old photos , many of which are from private collections, and are not to be seen anywhere else, is Margaret Workman's 'The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel'. You can get it new or second hand from Amazon. Over here Amazon has used copies as cheap as £2.

Thanks Barbara--i looked on the US amazon and the lowest price is $28 used; they also have new for $30. I looked on the UK amazon and see that 2 pound item. That would definitely come out to less than the US seller, even with $13 for shipping. I would definitely like to have that book. thanks for the info.

matties mum
5th November 2006, 09:50 PM
I have been round the web sites and find a few photos of big cavaliers that look a lot like your Charlie so loverly. My last dog Rocky was a big cavalier and was as big if not bigger that some cockers spaniels Barney I think will be even bigger ---Aileen

Lisa_T
5th November 2006, 11:00 PM
One thing that puzzles me is how any Cavalier could have a noticeably long muzzle- I don't mean slightly longer than standard, I mean cases where you genuinely are not certain whether the dog is Cav, Cocker etc- but I understood that the Cavalier breed was created purely by breeding from those Charlies whose noses resembled the 'old' spaniels, as per the competition.

That certainly makes sense since it would mean a LOT of inbreeding from day one, and from a breed that already had heart problems- thus MVD etc. However, if Charlies had been crossed with Cockers, Japanese Chins, Pekes (I've seen a number of 'dog enclyopaedias' that claim all of these breeds in the Cav ancestry) then wouldn't the breed's genetic pool have been wider to begin with, and thus fewer problems? I would also understand throwbacks to a more Charlie style head and nose- but unless Cockers were introduced to the mix initially, I'm not sure how inbreeding Charlies to create Cavs would ever result in cocker-style long noses. This is hopelessly incoherent, but I hope people get my drift. :D

Maxxs_Mummy
5th November 2006, 11:24 PM
I understand you Lisa :D Unfortunately, I have lent all my Cavalier books out at the moment & I'm sure in one of the much older ones there is a chapter on breeding and how they got to today's Cavalier.

From what I can remember, they outcrossed Charlies with Springers and then started to breed from the outcrosses. I might be wrong but I'm sure that's what it said....

When I see my friend whom i have let borrow the books I will ask her to look for me :D

AT
5th November 2006, 11:24 PM
Ann's son the model for the first breed standard was a cross of a nosey king charles & a papillon . Breeders also mixed other breeds such as cockers & springers infact probably anything that looked the part was used.

This is why there used to be pure black , black & white , chocolate , liver & tan etc cavaliers until the kennel club disallowed them.

They where also interbred back to king charles after the war ( i've traced some of my charlies pedigrees back to cav x charlie breedings in the 50's )

matties mum
5th November 2006, 11:29 PM
My vet say that when they first started to get the breed back from the edge of nearly disappearing they breed them from charles and cockers for the colours Rocker who was a black and tan was quiet big and the vet said that he had a deep chest as well ---Aileen

Maxxs_Mummy
5th November 2006, 11:35 PM
Maxx has got a very deep chest too, Aileen. I personally prefer the bigger Cavaliers though. I saw one a few months ago and it was so weeny it looked like a week old kitten or an overgrown hamster :lol:

I actually thought it was a tiny puppy out for a walk too soon until I saw that it was going grey :shock:

matties mum
5th November 2006, 11:51 PM
I know what you mean when we were on holiday this year someone said that Barney was not a cavalier because he was to big. At the place we were staying there was a breeder there who came to see me one night to tell me not to take any notice of him that in some of the dogs he had breed that he has some small ones and some large ones in the same litter----Aileen

Barbara Nixon
5th November 2006, 11:56 PM
Before Alansmere Aquarius won Crufts, cavaliers lived to late teens and mvd was almost unknown. The diseases spread was probably due to inbreeding from a small gene pool.

I read somewhere that the black and tans were very rare as a certain noble bred them and wouldn't let anyone else have them.--or perhaps this tale refereed to Charlies, Angela ?

Although red and white, black white and tan, black and tan and red are the only recognised colours, there are liver, tan and white tricolours. Unlike for instance blue gsds, these appear to carry no special defect. Some photos of normal tris and Blenhiems have a funnt tinge which makes the coat look liver, but there are genuine ones. A british breeder used to have a web site about them, but it has disappeared.

Lisa_T
6th November 2006, 12:40 AM
There's a photo here somewhere of an adorable choc'n'tan. Gorgeous!

Are you sure MVD was unknown, or simply undiagnosed? Maybe it was the very early onset that became an issue post Alansmere? Did he become in demand post Crufts as a stud and can 'bad genes' be linked to him? Hmm, so many questions..

Cathy T
6th November 2006, 12:41 AM
I can't tell you how many times people ask me if Jake has cocker in him, or why is he so big, I thought Cavaliers were small. He is good sized. He currently weighs about 24 lbs. I was often asked, when Shelby was a puppy, if she had pug in her, she has a stubby nose and puggy eyes. Both of mine very much grew into their looks. Meaning Jake's size fit him better and Shelby grew into her face.

On another note....I had a rescue who was a cav/cocker mix and one of the sweetest dogs I've ever met. Just an absolute love.

AT
6th November 2006, 08:58 AM
My vet say that when they first started to get the breed back from the edge of nearly disappearing they breed them from charles and cockers for the colours Rocker who was a black and tan was quiet big and the vet said that he had a deep chest as well ---Aileen

I groom a b/t who i'm sure has some sussex spaniel in him , he is MASSIVE. legs like tree trunks , even his ear flaps weigh a ton.
He has a sussex shape too,If it wasn't for his colour you'd argue he was one

AT
6th November 2006, 09:23 AM
Before Alansmere Aquarius won Crufts, cavaliers lived to late teens and mvd was almost unknown. The diseases spread was probably due to inbreeding from a small gene pool.

I read somewhere that the black and tans were very rare as a certain noble bred them and wouldn't let anyone else have them.--or perhaps this tale refereed to Charlies, Angela ?

Although red and white, black white and tan, black and tan and red are the only recognised colours, there are liver, tan and white tricolours. Unlike for instance blue gsds, these appear to carry no special defect. Some photos of normal tris and Blenhiems have a funnt tinge which makes the coat look liver, but there are genuine ones. A british breeder used to have a web site about them, but it has disappeared.

Think that might have been marlbrough Blenheims.

There have been chocolate & blue & tan charlies . The books say they took the appearence of blue & tan pups to mean a lethal gene in the strain but dont mention wether they died naturally or they culled them.

My friend saw some chocolate charlie pups who apparently lived to adulthood but had health problems. So it doesnt seem to be the same gene as choc/liver cavaliers.

I have been told it is common practice to breed blenhiem to blenhiem over many generations in cavaliers with no loss of colour ?

In charlies if breeding blenhiem to blenhiem too often The red will fade to a washy tan , the eyes & nose will become light & they revert back to the "Old marlborough type " with flat head & longer nose.

That would suggest red & white in cavs comes from somewhere else

Barbara Nixon
6th November 2006, 02:06 PM
I read that breeders introduce tris into blenheim lines to stop the fade. The story of the nobleman hanging on was definitely black and tan, but I wasn't sure whether they werre charlies or cavaliers (Probably the former or small spaniels)

Mvd was very rare in the breed before Alansmere Aquarius won Crufts. There is no connection between him and it, but his win made cavaliers more desirable, so , obviously some contaminated lines got overused, in the rush to cash in.

*Pauline*
6th November 2006, 02:29 PM
I've replied to your PM. :flwr:

Barbara Nixon
6th November 2006, 03:12 PM
Here is a link, origunally posted by Karlin about chocolate coat in cavaliers.

www.cochrancav.com/chocolate.html

estelle
6th November 2006, 03:19 PM
The chocolate/tan puppy is soooooooooo gorgeous :lotsaluv:

matties mum
6th November 2006, 09:28 PM
I think all the dogs on that site are gorgeous I would have any of them---Aileen

SHANO
6th November 2006, 09:32 PM
I love the chocolate color Cavalier's! Too cute! What a pretty color.

judy
23rd November 2006, 07:41 AM
...The best for old photos , many of which are from private collections, and are not to be seen anywhere else, is Margaret Workman's 'The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel'. You can get it new or second hand from Amazon. Over here Amazon has used copies as cheap as £2.

Thanks for telling me about this book. I ordered it from Amazon and it arrived today. It's just wonderful, the part about the evolution of the cavalier, with photos, is fascinating.

Laura&Lia
23rd November 2006, 10:52 AM
Hi,

The Lady of "The lady and the tramp" is a Cockalier, because some people says it's a ruby cavalier and someone is a cocker. Then we have a cockalier!!! (and it's just adorable, like yours).

I think it's an old cavalier! Under the reign of William and Mary, the king charles Spaniel was crossed with pugs (because the favourite dogs of Mary were the pugs).
Then an American Knight called Roswell Eldridge(year 1926) offered the sum of 50 pounds for a couple of Blenheim cavaliers, like the ones you could see under the reign of Charles II. Then the Breeders started cross king charles spaniel (today known as english toy spaniel) with cockers. The result was the Cavalier king Charles Spaniel. (Only receive the name of cavalier the ones who had the nose more out, like the cockers). All of them were crossed with spaniels.
:flwr: :flwr: :flwr: :lotsaluv:

Barbara Nixon
23rd November 2006, 12:14 PM
You can see Anne's son here.

www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/breed/history.html

matties mum
23rd November 2006, 01:57 PM
Just been on the site loverly dogs ----Aileen

judy
23rd November 2006, 06:23 PM
Aileen! I just saw your beautiful avatar for the first time. You did it! Good for you. What a pretty doggie. :flwr:

matties mum
23rd November 2006, 08:57 PM
No I did not some one on here did which I thank them very much ---Aileen

Joanne M
26th November 2006, 04:45 PM
The only cavalier I've seen locally was huge. By the look of him he was exactly like a blenheim Cavalier, according to my inexperienced eye.
Here I was with a 13 pounder, 16 months old and this other cavalier was just over two years old and 30 pounds! I would like to put a little weight on Tucker so long as it wouldn't make him over weight. Are their height/weight charts? Tucker looks much heavier than he is as he has a very fluffy coat. Soon as I post current pics of him you'll have a better idea of his size. I know 13 pounds is well within normal range, I'm just curious if in Tucker's case, it is a good weight for his height. Which I confess I do not even know.