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enchantingdragon
19th January 2007, 02:49 AM
If you didnt mind me asking what is your doggie registered as? I spoke to Ellie's breeder tonight and she had asked me what registration would I want Ellie to be under. She told me that once a dog is registered under limited registration in the AKC that can never be changed, the CKCSC can be changed by the breeder though. I have talked to her and my original breeder about my desires of showing and possibly breeding Cavys in the future (like 10-15 years in the future) I know I am not ready now and want to use these years to study and learn as much as I can about the breed so in 15 years when I want to start every decision I make is backed by years of learning and knowledge. I have started my education by going to as many shows as I can and reading as much as I can about this wonderful breed but at the heart of it I truly want to learn from experienced breeders who have had years of hands on experience. I really think the best info will come from those who have worked with the breed and I have contacted breeders from the east coast to the west trying to garner info from them all.

So anyway back to my original question. Right now Ellie is full registration under my breeder. My breeder had kept her longer as she was gaging her show potential and she has had her evaluated several times by judges and other breeders she says. Ellie def has faults as there are no perfect Cavaliers (though Im sure we all think ours are ) but she said she does have a wonderful structure and a good walk among other things. She knows that Im interested in being more then a casual pet owner one day and said she didnt want to limit her registration if in 2 years down the line I decide I would like to show her. I have no desire or interest in breeding her and this I know for a fact as I know so little about the breed I simply dont feel it would be right of me to do but Im not sure about showing. I have been attending shows and trying to learn from breeders but I dont know if I am ready to do this just yet either nor will I be in 2 years, 5 years or whenever but should I leave her registration open in case I want to and dont know it now? One day I do hope to maybe start to show but I want to learn more about it before I do and I dont know with my first Cavy ever would I want to do that with her. Thoughts? I told Ellie's breeder I wanted to think about it and when I go down to get Ellie to talk to her more about it and learn more in general about showing and she said that was fine

Joanne M
19th January 2007, 03:01 AM
I do not understand this issue and I'm interested in the responses you're likely to get.

Do I understand correctly to have full AKC registration means you have the right to breed your purebred dog? If you do not have full AKC registration you cannot show your purebreddog, whether you intend to breed it or not? If so, why is that? Or is there more to it than that? Also, is there any advantage to only having a limited AKC registration?

WoodHaven
19th January 2007, 03:24 AM
Limited registration means no breeding (all offspring will NOT be able to be registered) and if NO breeding no showing.

Full registration means that you can show and breed your dog and have full registration ability IF you use a mate that is fully registered also.

judy
19th January 2007, 07:20 AM
what is the reasoning behind not allowing a nonbreeding limited registration dog to be shown?

Joanne M
19th January 2007, 07:40 AM
what is the reasoning behind not allowing a nonbreeding limited registration dog to be shown?

Thanks, that should have been part of my question.

Bruce H
19th January 2007, 12:41 PM
As far as I know a limitted AKC registration can be changed to a full registration, but ONLY by the breeder. Maybe that's your breeders way of saying that her limitted registration contract has a S/N requirement in it. I would question her some more on that.

I don't know why a dog on limitted registration cannot be shown in AKC. It's always been my personal opinion that as long as the dog is intact, you should be able to show it. I guess when you're playing their game, you have to play by their rules.

We have a couple people we have sold puppies to on full registration because we or they think the dog might be shown, but we also co-own the dogs with them. And there are a lot of extra clauses in the contract that cover things like showing, breeding, S/N, etc., etc.

WoodHaven
19th January 2007, 03:08 PM
In the CKCSC, USA you can even show a neutered dog if allowed (breeders can prevent this). Actually, we did this-- the judge was English and it was explained to her beforehand. He just loved to show-- Sandy

Karlin
20th January 2007, 06:01 PM
Just a guess, but I wonder if the full registration element is intended to keep the effort towards producing champions and well structured dogs an active part of the development of the breed? In other words if so much work by so many (from judges to club structure for shows to breeders' work) goes into producing a great dog, then it should be available for the betterment of the breed as a breeding dog.

In other word a kind of balance of activity, intention, commitment to the breed and the goals of clubs, etc. at least from the perspective of clubs that have these restrictions.

I would guess one element might also be that dogs sold on limited registration are sold that way for a purpose, to retain some control on whether they are bred (of course) but also shown by others so that someone cannot change their mind and decide to start showing and perhaps breeding the dog off registration but claiming parent is a champion or winning show dog, etc which would be hard to control.

I think most clubs have some special circcumstances in which neutered dogs can be shown. We were discussing this on one of the Irish boards recently.

ppotterfield
20th January 2007, 06:44 PM
I do not breed or show but I do know that with the AKC if you have a limited registration you cannot show in Conformation but you can participate in AKC events such as Obedience, Agility, Rally, Tracking Trials, etc. Also, any puppies from a dog or bitch with AKC limited registration cannot be registered with the AKC. The historic purpose behind Conformation was not a beauty contest but to evalutate breeding stock; if your dog or bitch is neutered it cannot be breeding stock and thus is not eligible for Conformation shows. There are ways of changing a limited registration to a full registration but I do not know the details. Both my Clumber and my Cavalier are on limited registration and both were neutered at about eight months. Interestingly, with my Cavalier there was a clause in his contract that if he was still in tact at three years his limited registration could be re-evaluated. Although not spelled out in the contract, the idea was that at three years the requisite heart and other tests could be done; if he had health issues the limited registration would not be lifted even if structurally, etc. he was deemed to be "show" quality; if his testing was clear and we wanted to breed him we could discuss changing his registration so puppies could have AKC registrations. Seems like a pretty sensible approach for dogs who might not quite be show quality but if they have good health clearances based on the breeding protocols as adults you might want to reconsider breeding.

judy
21st January 2007, 01:20 AM
...Interestingly, with my Cavalier there was a clause in his contract that if he was still in tact at three years his limited registration could be re-evaluated. Although not spelled out in the contract, the idea was that at three years the requisite heart and other tests could be done; if he had health issues the limited registration would not be lifted even if structurally, etc. he was deemed to be "show" quality; if his testing was clear and we wanted to breed him we could discuss changing his registration so puppies could have AKC registrations. Seems like a pretty sensible approach for dogs who might not quite be show quality but if they have good health clearances based on the breeding protocols as adults you might want to reconsider breeding.

that does seem like a good idea.

i remember when i was looking for a puppy, i saw a number of websites where two prices were quoted for certain puppies, one for full registration and one for limited.

Is this just a practice of less reputable breeders, or is this done by breeders in general?

WoodHaven
21st January 2007, 01:34 AM
...Interestingly, with my Cavalier there was a clause in his contract that if he was still in tact at three years his limited registration could be re-evaluated. Although not spelled out in the contract, the idea was that at three years the requisite heart and other tests could be done; if he had health issues the limited registration would not be lifted even if structurally, etc. he was deemed to be "show" quality; if his testing was clear and we wanted to breed him we could discuss changing his registration so puppies could have AKC registrations. Seems like a pretty sensible approach for dogs who might not quite be show quality but if they have good health clearances based on the breeding protocols as adults you might want to reconsider breeding.

that does seem like a good idea.

i remember when i was looking for a puppy, i saw a number of websites where two prices were quoted for certain puppies, one for full registration and one for limited.

Is this just a practice of less reputable breeders, or is this done by breeders in general?


I may charge more for a show potential-- but I'd never sell a "pet" quality cavalier on open registration-- never. That might not answer your question.
All my show potentials are only be sold on a co-own. fwiw-- Sandy

judy
21st January 2007, 01:57 AM
....I may charge more for a show potential-- but I'd never sell a "pet" quality cavalier on open registration--never. That might not answer your question.
All my show potentials are only be sold on a co-own. fwiw-- Sandy

Your practice sounds like something different. This seems to be something where the buyer chooses whether they want to pay more for full registration. I just guessed it was a way of marketing the puppies to puppy buyers who wanted to breed the dogs with the possibility of AKC registration.

I was always curious about co-owning when i saw ownership of show dogs listed that way. What does it mean actually?

WoodHaven
21st January 2007, 02:07 AM
....I may charge more for a show potential-- but I'd never sell a "pet" quality cavalier on open registration--never. That might not answer your question.
All my show potentials are only be sold on a co-own. fwiw-- Sandy

Your practice sounds like something different. This seems to be something where the buyer chooses whether they want to pay more for full registration. I just guessed it was a way of marketing the puppies to puppy buyers who wanted to breed the dogs with the possibility of AKC registration.

I was always curious about co-owning when i saw ownership of show dogs listed that way. What does it mean actually?

Co owners agree ,to agree in the future, about the future of the dog. I have a contract where if the dog passes all the health tests and it is a good representative of the breed -- it might be bred with a female who also passes (heart, eye, patella and possibly MRI). They can show the boy or not-- my schedule and budget doesn't always allow me to show my nicer dogs when it would be beneficial. I can't expect someone else to do more than I can possibly do.

for example-- two dogs are tested (heart, eyes, patella, MRI_ and they pass with flying colors). They are successfully bred. Do I want the offspring neutered???? Not necessarily- so, I find a home who is willing to keep them intact until they can be fully tested.

Karlin
21st January 2007, 02:16 AM
I just reread my previous post and realised it had about a million typos! :shock: So cleaned those up.

Most websites offering dogs on one reg or the other are definitely getting people to pay more to acquire a breeding dog and not for any good reason. On all such sites I have seen of that nature, the dogs tend to be from imports that enabled the sellers to get AKC registration thru exploiting the dual registration clause (another red flag for anyone looking for a dog on breeder websites). I have never seen someone clearly a reputable show breeder with good lines offering dogs in that way.

A lot of people really misunderstand dual ownership. I have seen some people claiming this is something you never want to do with a breeder, as if it means they are being exploited. Yet dual ownership is an excellent way for someone to be mentored into showing while the breeder retains responsible control over one of their valued dogs. I guess the problem is the less scrupulous do exploit the system to tie someone into joint ownership, but I would have always thought joint ownership showed a certain amount of trust and support in a novice to a breed from a breeder (or in some cases just a straightforward partnership with someone).