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CosmoKC
23rd January 2007, 09:08 PM
My local pet store has a cute little Cav, but I'm concerned about him. He is now about 5 months old and has been there (caged up) for about 2.5 - 3 months. I wonder if being caged up all of that time will have any adverse effects on him. Part of me wants to buy him just to get him out of there, but I really can't start thinking that way or I'll wind up with a house full of dogs. Plus, I'm not sure that Cosmo (8.5 months old) would be able to handle a puppy at this time. Sorry if this is a long post post, as I guess that I'm just venting.

Moviedust
23rd January 2007, 09:28 PM
Most likely the pup IS suffering in the cage and it WILL have effects on it in the future. Also most likely is the fact that the dog is a mill dog, and will have health problems if not now in the future. While you may want to rescue the dog, you'd be taking on a lot more than another puppy.

It is heart breaking, which is one of the reasons so many people boycott petstores that sell puppies and get so angry at millers.

Mic
23rd January 2007, 09:32 PM
If you buy him, another pup will soon follow in his footsteps...spending all day and night in a crate. You'd only be encouraging them to continue in that business. Sad, but true.

My Wesley
23rd January 2007, 09:41 PM
I wish there was a way to encourage considering him as a rescue pup. :(

Cicero's Mummy
23rd January 2007, 09:43 PM
Just My Own Opinion!

I know a lot of people think that they are "rescuing" when buying from a puppy store... but think of it this way... every time you buy one, another one comes in, thus lining the puppy miller's pockets with more money to keep doing the awful deed!

Trust me, I know how you feel. I just cringe every time we go into a puppy store. (i like to go get a puppy fix while waiting for Cicero). There have been 3 CKCS (2 blen [one $2400 other $1900], 1 tri [priced at $2300]) and my heart just aches knowing the problems they will face in thier future as a result of such poor living conditions for the first few months!

I don't even buy supplies or anything in Pet Stores (stores that sell dogs or cats for gain). I feel that even buying dog food or supplies is keeping that store in business, thus keeping puppy mills in business. This is why I give my business to stores like Petsmart and PetCo. I love how they support and encourage rescues!

Just My Own Opinion!

Shay
23rd January 2007, 10:04 PM
Poor little thing. I'm afraid to ask, but what happens if no one buys the puppy? How long does a pet store keep them? He sure has been there a long time.

Cicero's Mummy
23rd January 2007, 10:18 PM
Poor little thing. I'm afraid to ask, but what happens if no one buys the puppy? How long does a pet store keep them? He sure has been there a long time.

I was told they always sell the puppies... and I am pretty sure the one by us does (i am getting to be good friends with one of the girls who works there [i am finding her a new job] and she feeds me some "insider info")... they just keep "knocking down" the price.

It is sad because they only buy the doggies for around $100 to begin with... so they make tons of money by telling you that $500 is a great deal... what they don't include is the fact that they are from poor breeding lines and the free spay and neuter offer in Columbus is a joke because the Humane Society has free/discounted clinics like once a month or so for people that can't afford a regular vet.

Which is crazy to think about!! Being a cavalier owner... I definitely understand the importance of a great relationship with a vet!!

Zippy
23rd January 2007, 10:25 PM
There must be a heck of a markup, all the puppies in a shop in Toronto are 50% off!!

Isn't that disgusting!!

Cicero's Mummy
23rd January 2007, 10:31 PM
The girl I talk with said that the two cavaliers they have right now, they bought for $150 each and they are selling for $1900 and $2300!!

They actually sold one of the blens and then the people brought it back the next day (they found out they couldn't have dogs at thier apartment --wouldn't you check this before hand?) and it was put right back into the cages with the other dogs!! They people bought the dog for $2400 and only got 2/3 of thier money back when they returned the doggie... and guess what... the pet store put the original price tag right back on the dog $2400!!

The girl also told me that the first price they tell you is the highest price they are allowed to ask and that they haggle down just to make a sale. She said it is all "just make the sale" and they have even been told to lie and say they know someone with the breed just to make the sale!! Crazyness... that is why I am helping her find a nannying job (she might takeover mine). She had no idea (like most people) what really went on at a pet store!!

coconut
23rd January 2007, 10:44 PM
i actually feelsick reading this, that is terrible!

Cicero's Mummy
23rd January 2007, 10:53 PM
It is sick and sad and all together horrible... but unless people are educated... it is just going to keep happening..

as you can tell I am a big fan of education about how bad puppy mills are... I try to slip it into every conversation that I have with someone who is looking to get a puppy.

Mic
23rd January 2007, 11:16 PM
Wanna hear something that'll make you even MORE sick? If the miller DOESN'T sell a pup, he/she gets to claim an $800 tax deduction (or write off) for defective merchandise or faulty inventory. BUT, they have to get a receipt from a vet saying that the pup was put to sleep.

Vomit bags for everyone!

My Wesley
23rd January 2007, 11:18 PM
Ok... that just royaly pissed me off. I REALLY hope that pet store don't actually put the pups to sleep if they don't sell. How sad!!!

Shay
23rd January 2007, 11:20 PM
I am new to this subject and thanks for the vomit bag, I needed it, but why are puppy mills legal? It is disgusting and why is it not considered animal cruelty. I just don't understand.

Mic
23rd January 2007, 11:21 PM
I don't know how the pet stores handle it, but if a miller has a pup that's been returned for any reason, putting them to sleep for a tax deduction is an attractive option for them. Sad, but true. That's how each pup I've rehomed has come to me...the vet refused to pts good pups.

My Wesley
23rd January 2007, 11:26 PM
Oh yeah... I think I recall you mentioning that. That there's one bad breeder that does that and you have a deal w/ the vet or something and everything is kept anonymous. That's a great way to help. I wish it worked that way in all cases. Still too bad the miller gets the deduction.

I can't believe some of the people in this world and their lack of "humanism".....

moniechris
23rd January 2007, 11:56 PM
What is just as bad is that the HUNDREDS of people who buy pet store puppies have no idea what they are getting themselves into. Mathis: I am the same way about getting my puppy fix, I go into the stores just to play with the babies. Every puppy you pick up in that store, especially cavaliers is deathly ill and you can feel the rattling in their chest from a respiratory infection.

A few months ago I overheard the sales girl tell a customer that the puppy had a "small patella issue" that it would just grow out of. :x :x :x YA RIGHT!!! They were charging this person $800 for a SICK "designer dog" :sl*p: !!!!!

On top of that they now have a display with "designer dog" books for each "breed" to make them look more legit (schnoodles, cavapoo's,puggles bla bla bla). These books attempt to describe the personailty traits and care of these mixed breeds!! How the heck are they supposed to know because there is ZERO consistancy from one pup to another!!!

Karlin
24th January 2007, 01:45 AM
The way these situations change is by lobbying for them to change and finding groups that will work to do this or setting one up yourself or writing yourself on your own and getting others to write too. Write to the AKC and ask why they have been willing to work with the mills to give AKC reg. if the millers get tax deductions for putting down dogs that don't sell in time.

Write your representatives, state and national, to ask why this deduction is given and why this industry is given state and national support.

Change comes from people uniting together to work for it -- or acting on one's own -- rather than feel distressed and helpless, write a polite and firm letter and on each, put in the relevant elected reps nme and then send them out.

We have helped push some change through here in Ireland by making noise and we do have anti puppy farm legislation in the offing though it is now a battle to make sure it remains tough on issues. We made this a noticeable issue by organising petitions, demonstrations, releasing press releases, setting up photo shoots with celebrities, talking to politicians behind the scenes, etc etc. but mainly letters and phone calls to make it clear a voting puvblic cared. We raise the issue on the doorstep when the politicians come around. In my district, that's the prime minister and he does go door to door so that is a real opprtunity. :lol:

The irony here is that the pet shops are charging buyers the same or even MORE than a really good breeder would charge for top grade puppies. They are relying on the impulse buy.

Cavaliers from puppy farms here only cost the brokers/importers around $50-100 each and they can be shipped 25 to a box on Aer Lingus and other carriers for just €100 ($130) to the US, so just an extra $7 per puppy or so for transport costs. Then you will be charged $2000 or $1500 or whatever for that irish 'champion lines' puppy.

That's what fuels the Irish import business into the US -- we have no rabies so the pups can be imported directly at 8 weeks. Brokers make one heck of a lot of tax free money. :yuk:

babyC
24th January 2007, 03:58 AM
nothing could be worse than all these puppy millers stuffs.. :x the worst experience so far that i had is when i went back to Singapore, it's a very high-tech country and developed.. one of the most beautiful and CLEAN city i've been to.. but the problem was, i could not find any proper dog breeder!

I went to this so-called pet farm with my friend, heard that they have Cavaliers so I thought why not take a look. it's a hugeeee piece of land, full of dog farms.. about hundreds of dogs ..and the thing that i couldnot believe is the STENCH.. how yucky, dirty it was.. i have two dogs, and NEVER ever i had smelled something like that ..

so it's a row of different dog "companies"/farm/mills.. don't even know what they are.. and the 1st farm has a shop (not all of them have shops with Air-conditioned etc, some are just like a huge farmhouse), with cages stacking so high.. different kinds of dogs, the cages are about 0.5mx0.5m.. and can you imagine inside one of this cage,these 5 tinyyyy.. little blenheims.. about 5 weeks old, (and they say they are ready to go) with their white colour already turning yellow/brownish colour..most probably has been sitting in their own pee/poo.. and did i mention the stench ??? :( my heart was hurting looking at them.. ! they were crying and crying.. and some of the older cavaliers who are not sold,about 8 month and 15 lb was also inside this tiny cage! just litterally standing, and can't even move.. there was one with red eyes,just pacing around in circles,crying,howling, looking.. (sorry) crazy.. !

It's so sad.. that after that one shop, i decided to go home. didn't want to look further. it's pathetic, when i entered that 1st shop, i pretended to be interested in buying, and was asking, about their health and so on, whether there's a history of SM or pattela, and the seller was like " huh ? what ?? they are dogs! " I was stunned! :|
There was this little chihuahua cross, that was tied to a tree, trying to follow me home.. looking all sad, skinny.. wanted to help him so badly, but what can i do! My parents are not dog-people.. oh well..

VERY FEW dog breeders in Singapore that I know of.. pet farms are what people know at that one place.. Dogs are bought from Australian breeders.. wish the Singaporean dog lovers could be more educated! :(
Went to see the quarantine that Cherrise is going to be (for 1 month!!) ,if one day I'm going back for good to Singapore.. i wasn't happy AT all.. would rather let her be here with a good family, or just never go back home.. icon_whistling ( yes, i do love her that much ..)

Shay
24th January 2007, 04:18 AM
I am in tears reading your post. These are living breathing beings. The "They are just animals" mentality I will never understand. Don't they realize that these animals feel pain, fear, sadness, happiness, and just about every other emotion, or sensation that a human feels. This just sickens me. I still can't understand why puppy mills are legal. IMO, it is animal cruelty at the highest level.

Remali
24th January 2007, 04:31 AM
So why don't more people know about that going on in Singapore? Wonder why it isn't on the News? Is there some way a petition can be started? I wonder....does Green Peace know about that???

Shay
24th January 2007, 04:40 AM
As I said, I don't really understand the workings of puppy mills that much, only to understand that it is horrible. I wonder why PETA has not actively taken up the cause of puppy mills in the US. Maybe they have, and I just don't know about it. Anyone have any insight into this?

WoodHaven
24th January 2007, 04:43 AM
As I said, I don't really understand the workings of puppy mills that much, only to understand that it is horrible. I wonder why PETA has not actively taken up the cause of puppy mills in the US. Maybe they have, and I just don't know about it. Anyone have any insight into this?

YIKES--- peta is not our friends.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1772497/posts

Shay
24th January 2007, 04:54 AM
WOW...I had no idea. All I've ever heard about PETA was the anti fur campaigns. I just couldn't imagine why that would be a bigger deal to them than what is happening in puppy mills, and wondered why they weren't on that bandwagon. :yikes

Crittercall
24th January 2007, 04:55 AM
I've looked at pet store dogs and oohed and aahed over them but I would NEVER buy one. As has been said, it simply perpetuates the use of puppy mills.

Tibby came from a puppy mill, so I know first hand of some of the emotional issues that they can have. It took quite some time to get the yellow blaze on her chest to turn to its natural white - and to get the smell out of her! She had never touched grass or been allowed to run, plus she had been debarked. And these people were getting $2500 for their puppies.

It is disgusting to think about, especially since those of us on this board love our own so much. No animal deserves to be brought into the world in a situation like that.

It's very hard to turn a blind eye to the dogs in a pet store, but we have to learn to do that. We hurt because we love.

Shay
24th January 2007, 05:01 AM
OMG Woodhaven....Just googled PETA, and I am in shock. Thanks for educating me. Horrendous!

WoodHaven
24th January 2007, 05:17 AM
Peta and animal right groups don't want people to own (or eat) animals. They are willing to go to fanatic lengths to force us to stop. BUT -- they euthanize over 80% of the animals put in their "loving" care. They are also behind all the new legislation to make getting pets more difficult.
The comic book they hand to young children has a picture of a woman with a huge, bloody knife-- positioned over a frantic rabbit. Caption reads"YOUR mom kills animals". They hand these out to young kids.

Shay
24th January 2007, 05:24 AM
What is their reason for not wanting people to own animals, or I guess I mean pets? I can assume the reason they don't want people to own food chain animals.

WoodHaven
24th January 2007, 05:28 AM
What is their reason for not wanting people to own animals, or I guess I mean pets? I can assume the reason they don't want people to own food chain animals.

They consider it servatude. ROTFLMAO-- who serves whom??? I have had numerous people say if they came back(reincarnated) as an animal-- please let it be one of my dogs.

Crittercall
24th January 2007, 05:34 AM
That's funny, Sandy, as I've been told the same thing (about wanting to come back as one of my pets). I've requested that when I'm dying no one put my bed over yapping poodles.

I don't know as much as I should about PETA, but I do know that I don't have respect for them and their ideas. Rather fanatical is how I see them on TV.

Shay
24th January 2007, 05:44 AM
This is why I love these boards. I have learned so much. I always thought PETA was a bunch of, well....nuts! But I couldn't understand why they would be opposed to fur, but not puppy mills. So it sounds like what you are saying is that they basically want animals to have the same rights as humans. Well, everyone has always told me that I pretty much treat my dogs like humans, but like you said they are the servees, not the servers :lol:

Crittercall
24th January 2007, 05:52 AM
I went to a meeting at a Vet Conference where Betty White was the featured speaker. I met her earlier in the day and she is a lovely woman, so kind.

One of the main points she made in her speech was that animals do have rights. They have the right to be loved, to be given good food, to be taken care of, to have a good home.

That made a good impression on me!

Shay
24th January 2007, 06:03 AM
I love Betty White, she is a huge animal advocate, as is Bob Barker, and Mary Tyler Moore.

Cicero's Mummy
24th January 2007, 01:28 PM
Just an interesting tid-bit...

The AKC was actually at one point going to "team-up" with Petland (a puppy store who gets their puppies from millers and brokers). There was a mass amount of emails and letters into the AKC about how outraged its members and others were. They eventually pulled out of the deal.


I cringe every time I am at a pet store and they say a dog is AKC... most commonly now though they are "bragging" up the Continential Kennel Club (CKC) who in my opinion is hiding behind the Canadian Kennel Clubs letters to try and look good... just take a look at the Contiential website and I think you will be less than impressed at what it takes to get a dog registered... just money... blech!

Lisa_T
24th January 2007, 01:44 PM
Just thinking about what Karlin said re transporting pups from Ireland- has anyone tried lobbying the airlines? I mean, 25 tiny pups to a box- that's got to contravene some kind of legislation somewhere. I've seen the Animal Airport prog on telly and the people at LHR throw a fit if a dog is tranported in a box that's ever so slightly short or something. I find it hard to believe they'd condone packing pups like that. If the transport system could be disabled then wouldn't that put a certain number of puppy millers/brokers out of the business at a stroke?

Shay
24th January 2007, 02:21 PM
Just an interesting tid-bit...

The AKC was actually at one point going to "team-up" with Petsmart (a puppy store who gets their puppies from millers and brokers). There was a mass amount of emails and letters into the AKC about how outraged its members and others were. They eventually pulled out of the deal

I have never seen puppies for retail sale at Petsmart. Only rescue dogs and shelter dogs by volunteers on the weekends. Where have you seen puppy mill dogs for sale at a Petsmart?

Shay
24th January 2007, 02:29 PM
Petsmart does not sell puppies. Only offers space for adoptions from rescue and shelter volunteers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PetSmart

JaneB
24th January 2007, 02:36 PM
In the US, the Department of Agriculture oversees most of the "mills." The current law treats dogs as livestock requiring only "minimal" care that is to include food, shelter and water.

Here are a few websites that will make you spitting mad but will also give you some ideas on how to take action. While I don't necessarily agree with every group, there is something to be said for each of them.

Warning, these sites are not for the weak of heart as they pretty much lay out the business of puppy milling in its worst (and accurate) light.

JaneB


www.stoppuppymills.org; www.nopuppymills.com; www.prisonersofgreed.org

Shay
24th January 2007, 02:47 PM
Thanks Jane....... I haven't looked at the sites yet. Not sure if I can, but do want the information on how to take action, so I'll work up my nerve. I can't believe domesticated animals like dogs and cats are treated as livestock. :swear:

Cicero's Mummy
24th January 2007, 03:28 PM
Petsmart does not sell puppies. Only offers space for adoptions from rescue and shelter volunteers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PetSmart


Oops... I meant Petland... I have tons on my mind this morning... The AKC was going to pair up with Petland.

Here are some links:

http://dogpolitics.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/09/akc_petland_per.html


Okas [AKC spokesperson] said the AKC does not recommend buying dogs from pet shops. However, almost all of the dogs at Petland were AKC registered

http://dogblog.dogster.com/2006/09/18/akc-endorsing-petland-and-supporting-notorious-puppy-mill-hunte-corporation

CosmoKC
24th January 2007, 04:01 PM
Wow :shock: What did I start here? But, on a serious note, I learned a lot from this thread. Thanks!!

WoodHaven
24th January 2007, 04:13 PM
Just an interesting tid-bit...

The AKC was actually at one point going to "team-up" with Petland (a puppy store who gets their puppies from millers and brokers). There was a mass amount of emails and letters into the AKC about how outraged its members and others were. They eventually pulled out of the deal.


I cringe every time I am at a pet store and they say a dog is AKC... most commonly now though they are "bragging" up the Continential Kennel Club (CKC) who in my opinion is hiding behind the Canadian Kennel Clubs letters to try and look good... just take a look at the Contiential website and I think you will be less than impressed at what it takes to get a dog registered... just money... blech!


All being AKC registered means is that both sire and dam were AKC registered. That being said-- The AKC has the right to go to any breeders home (or institution) for inspection. They can inspect the premises, dogs- and they inspect records. You can lose your AKC registration ability if you don't follow their protocols. This is one reason millers may decide to go to another registry.

Shay
24th January 2007, 04:38 PM
Oops... I meant Petland... I have tons on my mind this morning... The AKC was going to pair up with Petland.

Thanks for the clarification.

Cicero's Mummy
25th January 2007, 09:12 PM
Peta and animal right groups don't want people to own (or eat) animals. They are willing to go to fanatic lengths to force us to stop. BUT -- they euthanize over 80% of the animals put in their "loving" care. They are also behind all the new legislation to make getting pets more difficult.
The comic book they hand to young children has a picture of a woman with a huge, bloody knife-- positioned over a frantic rabbit. Caption reads"YOUR mom kills animals". They hand these out to young kids.

My main question would be... then why do most of the PETA pushing celebs have dogs or cats or such if they are against having animals as pets??

mishmosh
25th January 2007, 09:22 PM
It should be made illegal to sell dogs and cats in pet shops like in the UK. I was horrified when I saw them on holiday over there.

GusWilson
26th January 2007, 08:47 AM
I hate pet stores! I went in one the other day and there was a little boy cav that looked just like Gus as a puppy... he had just woken up and his little ears were flapped back and his big brown eyes just said "i need some love"... i literally left in tears. I hope he gets a great home!

moniechris
26th January 2007, 05:20 PM
Most of the Petland store in my area don't even bother trying to hide behind the CKC (continental...) They are all registered with either ACA (which ANYONE can register ANY dog, mutt, pure bred etc) or APRI (American Pet Registry Inc..again completely meaningless.) Most people are uneducated if they are buying a puppy from a Petstore anyhow, so all they see is that the dog has "papers".