View Full Version : What would you recommend??? (URGENT)

6th March 2007, 02:17 AM
A friend of mine is about to purchase a Cav puppy from the same breeder I used. I advised her to get heart certificates for the pup's parents and to make sure the breeder tests for MVD and SM. Here is what my friend just wrote to me:

He's a little "less expensive" because he's "mismarked." Other than that is in perfect condition. We ABSOLUTELY LOVE his "mismarkings" and think they give the little guy character. I asked about syr... (sp?) and heart conditions and she said that they do not test for the "S" one because it's rare and don't have any heart problems. What do you think?

Isn't it a little odd that the breeder told her SM is "rare"? Also, to say her dogs don't have ANY heart problems seems a little unbelievable, seeing as this breeder has been showing since at least the 1970s. What do you guys think????

6th March 2007, 02:42 AM
Do they have heart and eye health certs. on the parents? In reading some of the things that Karlin has written, she does mention that SM is rare. Unless I have misunderstood what she says. What I think she says is that a very high percentage of Cavs have the malformation, but few show actual symptoms. I don't want to miss quote her, but that was my understanding. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe Sandy or Bruce will respond from a breeders perspective.

Edited to add: BTW...I love your Avatar.

Sharon 7
6th March 2007, 02:47 AM
I don't think it is unusal that they said SM is rare, only
because vets here do not know much about it. (if anything)No breeder here bothers with MIRs, so to them it's rare. (becasue we have our collective heads in the sand). I can't speak for your country. It is still hit and miss here if you purchase a Cav.
One breeder I spoke to here has had MRI's done, and they said the test is too inconclusive. :bang:

Sorry this does not answer your question :(

6th March 2007, 09:54 AM
Ask your friend to slow down and do a little more research being firm and pointing out your concerns. Surely a good breeder would allow a few hours for this or days ? They don't really have to know why but if so bulls@*t or be upfront ?

Cathy Moon
6th March 2007, 10:25 AM
Here is the link to the OFA website:
If your friend has the names of the puppy's sire and dam, she can look them up here. The records should show OFA (orthopedic), CERF (eye), and Cardiac certificates for the parents.

Unfortunately there is no centralized record keeping for cavalier MRIs. I don't know how many cav breeders MRI their dogs. I know of only two breeders here in Ohio who MRI their cavaliers in their breeding programs.

6th March 2007, 11:00 AM
Could I just mention that its really up to us Pet Cavalier folk ,and Ill start with the Cavalier heart problem ,to ask to see a certificate to show that the Sire and Dam had no sign of Heart trouble before being mated.
If the Breeder cant show evidence of this being done ,then just go to a Cavalier Breeder who can .
This ,I feel is the only way to focus Cavalier Breeders' minds about the Heart trouble in the Breed
About MRI scanning for Syringo ,here in Britain Cavalier Breeders are being encouraged to MRI scan Breeding Stock ,to find out if the Cavalier has a SYRINX.
Its the presence of a Syrinx that defines SM
At the moment some Breeders are co-operating ,others dont want to know!
Iam hearing though ,of quite a few Cavaliers suffering from this insideous disease now

Bet Hargreaves

6th March 2007, 01:05 PM
If I remember rightly, Karlin says something nearly all Cavaliers will have SM to some degree, but only a relatively small number will be symptomatic to the point of requiring further treatment, whether medication or surgery based. ie, if all your dog does is the odd scratch, then just watch. If scratching is persistent, yelping etc- then something needs to be done..

The fact that they say they have no heart problems would make me run a mile. To my knowledge, my breeders don't heart test- but as Amber is mainly the product of another line all together which DOES heart test, i thought it was worth taking the risk. Even so, the breeders still warned me about heart problems and encouraged me to keep the weight low etc. Saying no heart problems period is rather suspicious.

6th March 2007, 01:16 PM
I would always ask the breeder to show me the clear eye and heart certs for both the Sire and the Dam. It won't guarantee that you get a puppy totally clear of these problems but it certainly means that it is less likely they'll have problems.

As for SM, it IS becoming more prevalent but unfortunately, just scanning the sire and dam isn't going to guarantee you an SM free puppy. Even bitches who are clear can produce affected pups and I believe, vice versa.

This makes me personally wonder whether the male being clear has more to do with it all. Whether the pups will take on more of 'Dad's genes' than they will of Mum's. This is certainly true of a lot of human genetic illnesses that one sex can be the carrier.

Unfortunately until they identify the faulty gene that causes SM/CM then there is no sure fire guarantee of getting a completely free puppy.

6th March 2007, 01:29 PM
Ruby and Sydney here,

Sydney and I are always trying to educate our Mom and Dad on our health issues so they can then better educate their veterinarian on particular Cavalier health issues. Although many of you Cavalier owners probably already know about this site, a good reference for the multitude of health issues that affect us Cavaliers is www.cavalierhealth.org This site is sponsored by a company called the Blenheim Company and this is how they describe themselves on their web site.

CavalierHealth.org is dedicated to providing easy Internet access to factual information about the health of and severe genetic health disorders which afflict the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.

CavalierHealth.org is offered as a public service by the Blenheim Company, an independent organization which has been dedicated to the welfare and health of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels since the 1970s. The Blenheim Company has been providing breed health information, as a service to Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and their owners in the United States and Canada, since 1998 and has been providing this website since 2001.

The Blenheim Company is headquartered in the State of Florida, USA.

Good information but it is information only. The web site tells visitors that the site is not to be used as a diagnostic and self treatment tool and to check with their veterinarian on any health issue that might affect their Cavalier. However, education is a tool and it allows you to interact with your veterinarian and educate him or her on the health issues that can sometimes afflict we lovely Cavaliers so they can better monitor our health and longevity.

Bark On!

Ruby and Sydney in Virginia :paw:

Cathy T
6th March 2007, 03:33 PM
I think I would....not walk....away from that breeder!!! The first breeder I met with told me the heart issues were "blown out of proportion to scare people and weren't that big of a deal". Needless to say, after that comment I thanked her for her time and left. I wasn't comfortable arguing the point because I was not very informed at the time. Now....she would have gotten an earful from me!!

Anyway who denies sm or mvd is a problem is trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes. Do not deal with them. If you have problems down the line this is not someone who is going to stand by you and support you.

Keep looking!

Cathy Moon
6th March 2007, 05:38 PM
The best thing to do is find a breeder who does all the testing (Heart, Orthopedic, Eye, MRI) and who follows the breeding protocols for each problem.