Bathtime tantrum

Ellie is now 15 weeks old, and I love her to bits, but she is by far the most difficult pup to handle that I have ever had. and I really am at my wits end as how to handle her I have put other posts on about her and have been grateful for the advise I have been given.
Ellie is independent, doesn't like being fussed or cuddled, but her behaivour is beginning to worry me a lot.
She HATES being brushed so i dont brush her often, but today I took her to the park and she rolled in somthing nasty and I had to bring her home and bath her. I have stood her in the sink before and washed her feet, but today I had to give her a proper bath. Brushing her after she was dry was a nightmare, she was really biting at me. I confess in the end I did give her a good tap on the nose and really gave her a firm NO, but it just made her worse. All my other dogs have been good natured , and they always knew that I was the boss and I have never smacked a dog.
But I am very worried that Ellie is going to be a biter and I really dont know how to deal with her.........Am I worrying for nothing as she is only 15 weeks old??? She gets LOTS of praise for being a good girl but how do I deal with the growling and nipping........
Has anyone else had problems with their puppy?

First let me say, I do not have much experience with bathing Tucker. The groomer bathes him. I have bathed him only a couple of times, and have also had to bathe the back end of him a few more if anything gets stuck in that area. Tucker has an extremely heavy coat, it's thick and fine at the same time. Unless I brush him often, he is prone to mats. Actually he gets them anyway, however, they are much worse if I do not brush him several times a week. Every single grooming advice I have read stresses the importance of brushing/combing before bathing. I do not know if Ellie's nipping at you has anything to do with her being in pain when you are trying to work a knot/mat out. Tucker sometimes runs when he sees me carrying the grooming kit. He's not thrilled with it, I'm relieved he's never shown any sign of aggression. Though I rarely give advice because I'm NO EXPERT, I don't think a hit on the nose will help relieve Ellie's anxiety that she may have associated with her bath. I can feel your frustration from here, and I'm sorry for that, because I know you want to do what is best for your cavalier or you would never come to a site like this for advice. Please know that there is support for you here. I am sure you will get some advice, but it might be helpful if you can be a bit more specific, as to exactly what is happening when Ellie nips at you. I wouldn't let Tucker bite me either, I'm lucky that it has never been an issue.

I look forward to the responses of others, as every time someone has a question, we all learn a little something. Good luck, and cheer up, it will get better.

Have you had her in classes yet? Puppies at this age do nip, bite alot. The explaination I got in class was, they communicate with their mouths and they see humans communicating with our hands (pat, feed, brush, pickup). It starts as their way of wanting to communicate through play. They need to understand that their teeth can not touch you skin. We were told of numerous ways from the 1st step yelping, to a loud no bite, distraction and other things. 15 wks is a good time to start classes.

As for bath, I havent given Kodee one yet! I am not looking forward to it either as I heard from our breeder the other 3 pups were fine, but Kodee threw a complete fit! I did read that standing in bathwater can be scary, that a gentle shower with a sink attachment sometimes works better. As well I read, smearing peanut butter or cheeze whiz on the side of the tub, can keep them busy while you do a quick wash and rinse. It was also suggested to smear on the side of the fridge for the first few groomings to get them used to being brushed. I do all of kodees eye wiping etc.. usually at night when she is just waking up from a long sleep beside me on the couch. Then she will let me touch all her feet, ears, roll her on her tummy for a rub - but forget any of that if I attempted it in the day when she is playful.

Ellie is starting in classes on the 20 of April, that is the earliest I could get.
The actual bathing wasnt too bad, it was when I brushed her that she got angry. She didnt have any knots, it was just a matter of a gentle brush to smooth her coat . I am getting frustrated because a firm NO has no effect on her when she grabs at me. Nor does OUCH etc: I dont want things to get out of hand with her. What I am doing now has always worked with all my other dogs, and I cant seem to find a way of letting her know that No means NO...... :sl*p: I feel really stupid.
Basicially I am worried that she is going to get worse, and I cant control her.....
I have seen her MUm and Dad and they are lovely natured dogs......
All advise very welcome please for my Ellie.

i was advised when i got Harry that if he nipped, growled etc at me or the children, to pin him to the floor!, gently but firmly for a few seconds and a firm NO to show him who is boss then walk away as this is how dogs interact in the wild.
worked for us Harry only bit me once

Don't give up! :flwr:

Faith is the exact same age is Ellie - I gotta tell you - HANG in there!!@ Right now she's teething like CRAZY. Keep ice cubes, chilly bones, frozen wetted washclothes in front of her at ALL times. Her gums most likely hurt right now a LOT and she's trying to soothe herself. When she touches you with her teeth say "OUCH!" and ignore her until she gives up the behavior. If you play tug and she touches you with her teeth - stop playing when she bites you. It will only take a couple of times - serious.. Faith does not touch us with her teeth anymore and let me tell you - she's also the headstrong stubborn difficult type!

As for bathing - I know it might sound stupid but have you thought about bathing with her?? I take mine into the shower with me and plop them under the water and do it that way.. It's soooo much easier!!

Good luck :flwr:

My guys easily tolerate the bath. But....I picked them up from the groomer on Wed and the gal who bathes them commented that Jake tried to bite her :yikes I was appalled...until I found out it was while she was trying to blow dry his ears. They have one of those super powerful blow driers and he just doesn't like it. I told her....don't dry his ears then, it's not important! I also caught her pulling him by his front legs trying to get his harness on and explained that Cavaliers in general DO NOT like being picked up or moved by pulling on their front legs. I then called my groomer and we had a very nice chat about what had happened. It won't be happening again!! I absolutely, totally, 100% trust and love my groomer....her assistant just needed a little direction.

the only hassle alfie gave me was grooming,but everyday i would brush for maybe 10 secs. then after he got a choclate drop,then i just built the brushing time up over a period of time.i also only bathed in the sink with just a tiny drop of water as the bath can look big ,i would just wet his feet and then i got further up his body.it took at least 4 months but i had never had growling or bites he just would be scared of being handled hes great now though.but i had the only the one dog to worry over it must be hard having to worry over more dogs and time consumming if she is being stubborn.

I am really sorry to be blunt but the tap on the nose comment has made me feel it is necessary.

Ellie is a clean slate right now due to her age and life experiences (she isnt a rescue is she ?) she is looking to learn in all new ways. When she feels uneasy about a situation to the point where she nips or bites it is in my opinion for one of 2 reasons, 1) she is unsure and using her mouth to communicate and tell you she doesn't like it as this is what puppies do. or 2) you are going about it all the wrong way. It sounds like you need to keep things calm (yourself included), consistent and most of all positive.
This statement here :

She HATES being brushed so i dont brush her often

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is prime example, if she hates being brushed you have to work really hard with positive reinforcement to help her to feel happier about the process as she has to be brushed, not give up and not do it. She may never like it but will learn she needs to cooperate but only with positive learning not a tap on the nose.

There is a need to be firm especially with a pup but it should never involve physical or negative punishment.

If you feel you are doing things correctly and the biting and growling are excessive to pup behaviour, have her assessed by the vet and make sure she is in no pain, if that does not work consult a professional or go to a training class as earlier suggested and then you can learn what to do. I had exactly the same thing with Harry when he was little, he all of a sudden did not like being handled whether it be for a cuddle or a brush and prior to this he was quite good. I later found that his allergies were so bad his skin and body would have been sore and sensitive to touch.
Look at every little aspect, the brush your using, the environment, the shampoo, the water temp, her footing does she feel safe and comfortable or unsteady and so on. There are so many things to look at and try before you blame the dog and their personality.

Also look at yourself, does she trust you and have faith maybe you need to work on that. Everytime you interact do things start and finish nicely or with her being yelled at or you feeling frustrated which she will sense.
I am speaking from experience I had never owned a pet before the twins and have made many many terrible mistakes but the most valuable thing I learnt was I can't blame them it is me that either sets them up to fail or succeed by the way I deal with things.

Have to say also don't really agree with this approach either to me it falls into physical punishment, but again it is only opinion though I think you will find most folks here agree:

i was advised when i got Harry that if he nipped, growled etc at me or the children, to pin him to the floor!, gently but firmly for a few seconds and a firm NO to show him who is boss then walk away as this is how dogs interact in the wild.
worked for us Harry only bit me once

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I hope you don't take this wrong, this is my way of helping by being out right honest. I realise its only my opinion and it doesn't make it right but really wanted to share in the hope it may shift your thinking. :flwr:

Casey also really hated being brushed when he was a young pup just around Ellie's age. He would try and bite and pull away. I put away the brush. I went to stroking him many times a day with my hand, with lots of praise and afterwards a treat. Then after a few days I started using a very wide tooth comb and just working on a few areas. Again, lots of treats and praise. We slowly worked up to full brushing and grooming. It takes a little while but I think it makes it a really positive experience for you and your dog. Now he loves being brushed!

Here's a good article on puppy biting by Ian Dunbar: http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

And here's one on training grooming:
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002b/grooming.htm

Hope that helps. Be patient. If you can, do alittle bit every day. She's going to calm down and be fine.

Do you practice any submission exercises with Ellie? I was always taught to hold puppies in my arms, on their backs (like you would a baby) and if it starts to struggle just say "No" then have them stay that way until they are still. I think part of your problem may not know that you are the boss!

My 4-year-old shihtzu turned her head like she was going to nip at me and I had her on her back in a heartbeat. She didn't struggle but she sure did "talk" - not growl, not whine, just making noise. I told her she could make all the noise she wanted to but she wasn't getting up until she shut up. (Yeah, I know, like she understood me!) She also hates to be brushed - which is why she doesn't have a long, flowing coat.

You know, I think we treat them so much like our children that we sometimes forget that they are really children wearing fur coats who don't speak our language too well!

Good luck. Mine have always gone to a groomer 'cause i don't want to spend all that time trying to get that thick coat dry!

I'd try to make the grooming sessions as fun as possible. Start off by having no expectations... that way you will not feel frustrated if things don't go the way you wanted them too. The puppies really pick up on our tension.

Make the grooming session a game. I actually use 2 brushes when I brush our 10 week old Beau. I start to brush him with a brush and as soon as he decides he would like to bite the brush, I just let him have it while I get the second brush & groom him. He doesn't try to bite the brush because he hates being groomed, but because he just enjoys killing the brush. So I just let him kill one brush while I use the other. I keep little treats on hand for him and I only do a few strokes on his coat & then tell him what a good boy he is, or play a round of peek a boo, in between strokes.

With bath time, use his own energy against him, rather than trying to hold him down. Use a tub deep enough that he can't get out of. I hold Beau with my arm running lengthwise under him from chest to tummy, with my hand stickout out from between his legs. He keeps trying to climb up my arm but because it is too slippery he gets nowhere. If he looks like he might actually get out, I just move my arm slightly and he slides off again.

The trick is for you to stay calm & do very little, but let him wear himself out. Eventually he will realise that his efforts are getting him absolutely nowhere. You've just got to figure out way of outwitting them, whilst remaining calm & in control yourself.

Yeah easier said than done sometimes. :flwr:

Oh and yeah.... definitely get him checked out by the vets to make sure he is not sore somewhere.

I was also told that an excellent way to show a dog that you are the boss was to just firmly hold him on his side (gently but firmly) by placing one flat hand towards the shoulder area and one on his rump. Apparently this is what would happen to him in a pack and he would just learn his place. Harvey is a big old softie but as a pup still learning his teeth sometimes got carried away and we did this a couple of times. It works fine, we found the first time he wiggled a bit but the second time he laid still straight away. We also did the always walk thru the door first take bits from his bowl and add bits while he is eating etc. I think it all goes towards letting them know their place. I love my dogs to bits but they have to know where they fit in. Once this is established you can spoil them rotton without a worry!!

Pinning or holding your dog down to show him who's boss is an outdated idea that has seriously backfired on dog owners!! Even the author of one of the earlier Monks of New Skete books has apologized and published a retraction of a chapter on training German Shepherd Dogs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll

Here is a second link from the Caring for Your Cavalier forum:
http://cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2286

Ann, what kind of brush are you using? My pups HATED a pin brush, so I gave it away. Molly's suggestion to use a comb is a good one. Later, a slicker brush, used properly as described in Sheila Smith's Cavalier King Charles Spaniels Today chapter on grooming might be helpful.

There are lots of good suggestions here for grooming and bathing, including being calm, making it fun, taking it slowly and giving treats. I even talk soothing baby talk to my dogs the entire time that I groom and bathe them. I also put my face near them so they can lick it - this seems to build and reinforce their trust in me over time. Saying 'no' to a puppy doesn't give her any information about how you want her to behave. By gently praising her for small things that you like, she will begin to learn what you want.

You might want to try taking your baby to someone who is experienced bathing rambunctious puppies, and ask to watch and learn. :flwr: :flwr: :flwr:

I've edited this to add more information as I'm re-reading the posts...

Harry's mom said:

i was advised when i got Harry that if he nipped, growled etc at me or the children, to pin him to the floor!, gently but firmly for a few seconds and a firm NO to show him who is boss then walk away as this is how dogs interact in the wild.
worked for us Harry only bit me once

Click to expand...

Pinning is not recommended by behaviorists or trainers who update their skills.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll

I agree with Caraline about the way she holds her little one in the bath and also with the giving of a second brush to 'kill'. I used both of these methods with Maxx as a puppy and he is so good to do anything with now. In fact, I honestly can't remember ever getting really cross with him about anything, ever.

When he first came to me as a puppy, he was so full of life that I never thought I'd see the day when he liked brushing. A month or so down the line though he would rush to his bed when he saw the brushes coming as he was so used to the routine and actually got to like it.

I think it helps to also have a routine and brush them a little every day with a soft brush, plenty of 'good boy/girl's' and plenty or other praise and gentle talking too.

When Charlie came to us, his coat was in such a state and I don't think he'd ever really been handled much. It used to take 2 of us to get anywhere near him with the brushes. I never thought that any amount of gentle talking/treats/cuddles would ever get him used to the brushes - I was wrong! Charlie will now sit so nicely for me to brush him and when the brushes come out in the afternoons, it's a race for them to get to the big bed to see who is going to be brushed first :lol:

Aww, Donna, that is so sweet how they both love to be brushed!

That is a good point to brush them a little bit each day.

This works for clipping nails and brushing teeth, too. One nail a day with treats, and brush a few teeth then let them lick the toothbrush for awhile. :flwr:

Just my two pence worth here........

Don't get stressed about bathing and grooming, yeah they wriggle and jiggle and try to escape but.....
A little bit every day is better than a whole grooming session once a week - you don't expect children to sit still while you brush their hair extra so you can't expect a puppy to be either!

Both of mine used to scatter when they saw the brush and would they come upstairs for a bath .... not even for the best treat in the world!

Now after little bits everyday and major positive reinforcement, they both charge to the sofa when the brushes come out and will both gladly get in the bath. Oakley still doesn't like the hair dryer, but we'll get there.

Try to make it fun for the dogs and it will be fun for you, that way its positive for everyone all round

I should also add that Kosmo never liked the brush either. I can't use a slicker brush on him even still - he wiggles and whines like a baby. I use a comb for his ears and a zoom groom rubber brush. I use the zoom groom on Faith and she also likes it. I think it's more of a massaging brush. It does pretty good at taking dead hair out though

As for submission issues, I've been told to do different things like put your dog in a sit stay and YOU enter the house first, you control the food, if you don't want the dog playing anymore than you take away the toy, etc. There are many different alternatives to this one. :flwr:

Good luck :flwr: