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quoman
11th March 2007, 08:48 PM
Hi everyone, I'm totallly new, have just got a beautiful blenheim puppy (don't collect him until April though), as we are totally new to cavalier owning we chose a wonderful blenheim boy from a breeder, we only noticed when we arrived back home, on looking at the pics we had taken of him, he has a pure white face and no chesnut marking other than his ears, has anyone else got or seen other blenheims like ours, I'm quite curious now as I've only seen the types with the face markings ?
thanks :?

matties mum
11th March 2007, 09:00 PM
Hi
Welcome to the site hope you enjoy your new little one when you can please put photos on ----Aileen and the gang (Jazzie---Barney---Sam)

George19
11th March 2007, 10:06 PM
icon_welcome
I'm originally from the West mids too :D
Can't offer any advice about Blenheim faces, someone here will though.

judy
11th March 2007, 10:08 PM
I would love to see that--he sounds beautiful!
Personally, i dont' like there to be one main type of cavalier, i like lots of diversity and don't like the idea of there being a 'right' type. I fear breeding to get a certain look has led to health related suffering. I am happy to hear about and see unique and different looking cavaliers. I've read that some decades ago, show winning dogs were diverse, moreso than now, in size, shape, and markings, etc. To me, that is a nice thing, to have diversity and variety, to me that is beautiful. It may also be more healthy for the breed as a whole and for individual doggies.

Bronte
11th March 2007, 10:11 PM
I believe another member on here has one close to an all white head.

Can you please post a photo?

Crittercall
11th March 2007, 10:41 PM
I think that all of us who have blenheims would love to see that!!

Linda
11th March 2007, 10:56 PM
I believe another member on here has one close to an all white head.

Can you please post a photo?

Bronte

I just absolutely adore your avatar, your Cavalier is gorgeous and so is that sweater. I luv it. :D :D :D

Bronte
11th March 2007, 11:01 PM
Thanks Linda, but actually that is the famous Princess Dandyridge Brandywine, pet of Charlotte York from the show Sex and the City!

Her real name is "Penny" and she has been in movies, ads and even Oprah's O magazine!

Julie S
11th March 2007, 11:11 PM
Blens can pop out with all different types of markings ... definitely "show" pups need to have certain markings, but I think they're adorable no matter what. ;)

enchantingdragon
11th March 2007, 11:19 PM
Thanks Linda, but actually that is the famous Princess Dandyridge Brandywine, pet of Charlotte York from the show Sex and the City!

Her real name is "Penny" and she has been in movies, ads and even Oprah's O magazine!

I thought that sweater looked familiar!!! I love Sex and the City and Charlotte is my favorite character so when she got a Cavalier it just sealed the deal!! What a beautiful pup Penny is. Do you know who her original owners are?

By the way is your screen name Bronte after the famous writers by any chance? Wuthering Heights is my favorite book so just wondering if there was another fan out there

Sorry quoman for hijacking your post I would love to see pics of your new Blen LIke JulieS said pups can come with different markings As long as its not a show dog it shouldnt matter much

Bronte
11th March 2007, 11:22 PM
Blens can pop out with all different types of markings ... definitely "show" pups need to have certain markings, but I think they're adorable no matter what. ;)

Agreed!!!

Karlin
11th March 2007, 11:26 PM
Breeding for conformation (appearance) actually helps PRESERVE breed health because it sets standards, including those of health. Most cavaliers of poor quality and sickly constitution come from backyard breeders and puppy farms, not good breeders aiming for conformation and 'type' (which varies anyway from breeder to breeder and judge to judge). I am absolutely positive that if we did a poll of board members, those with dogs from reputable breeders will be those who have had minimal problems and those with BYB dogs of poor background, ordered off the internet or bought at a store, or those from seemingly 'nice' breeders who never show (typically stating it is too snobby for them -- a nice excuse to be a BYB) and are not involved with the breed clubs or focused on conserving the breed, will be the ones who are regularly sick or deal with a series of health problems.

The very nature of purebred dogs means ALL purebreds have some health issues because they come from limited gene pools so if you want a purebred you are already supporting a philosophy of restricted breeding.

The thing about good breeders breeding for conformation is that those are the breeders who stay informed about health issues through their clubs and competitions, and are the ones who will respond to issues like MVD and SM. Don't expect the BYBs/mills to care a jot about either! Both of these are widespread issues that for the most part have had very little relationship to breeding for a certain type of cavalier, especially not MVD (and 'type' changes all the time -- cavaliers from the 70s are different from dogs now but MVD and SM was already widespread within the breed at least genetically; it takes many generations of breeding to cause polygenetic problems, as these are believed to be, to reach a symptomatic tipping point. SM MAY be related to selecting for a certain head but that is then more due to using ONLY a restricted number of winning sires over and over. But that doesn't explain why such numbers of cavaliers, just as many from unknown background, are presenting with SM. It clearly is only a possible contributing factor for certain lines, not the sole source of the problem. Clare Rusbridge, the leading authority on CKCS SM, doesn't think it is even a significant element.

Basically, with purebreds, you either want your dog to look like a proper breed example or you don't care if they drift away until they start looking, as many byb/puppy mill cavaliers do, like they are crossbred with terriers, beagles, springers, etc. This causes all sorts of problems in and of themselves.

If people want genetic diversity, then it is better to choose one of the millions of needy crossbreeds in every shelter in n every country rather than support BYBs and puppy mills in demolishing a breed by disregarding both health or conformation.

Health and conformation are very different from a totally cosmetic feature like colouring. A white faced cavalier like any type of mismarking can always appear in any breeder's lines and is not a problem, simply an interesting variation in markings that would keep the dog from being shown -- if it otherwise was of show quality (very few dogs are of show quality). It has nothing to do with genetic diversity, breeding for type, breeding for health, etc. In other words you will have a very unusually marked pet cavalier to love and enjoy! :)

Linda
12th March 2007, 02:17 AM
Thanks Linda, but actually that is the famous Princess Dandyridge Brandywine, pet of Charlotte York from the show Sex and the City!

Her real name is "Penny" and she has been in movies, ads and even Oprah's O magazine!


:oops: :sl*p:

judy
12th March 2007, 05:57 AM
Breeding for conformation (appearance) actually helps PRESERVE breed health because it sets standards, including those of health...

The very nature of purebred dogs means ALL purebreds have some health issues because they come from limited gene pools so if you want a purebred you are already supporting a philosophy of restricted breeding.

What does "breeding for diversity" mean? I thought i read about this somewhere on cavaliertalk, maybe it was another forum; i thought that reputable breeders attempt to breed for diversity, but i'm not sure what that means. I think I've read (on an SM discussion list) that over time, cavalier breeding has become ever more narrow and restricted in terms of the standards of appearance, as well as health; and i read an abstract of an article by Clare Rusbridge in which she wrote that narrowing the gene pool in order to breed out MVD likely contributed to the increase in incidence of SM (though i could be misunderstanding that). On the SM discussion list, i think that there were some who have been around a long time who were saying that in an earlier era, show quality cavaliers were more diverse in their appearance, and that the sought after type has been narrowed as time goes by. Is there general agreement about that, or is it controversial?


The thing about good breeders breeding for conformation is that those are the breeders who stay informed about health issues through their clubs and competitions, and are the ones who will respond to issues like MVD and SM.

That sure does make sense. I just think i've read somewhere that good reputable breeders, or some of them, have become committed to 'breeding for diversity' in the interest of improving the health of the breed, but i don't know what that means in terms of selecting breeding dogs.

In the case of good breeders, if inbreeding/line breeding narrows the gene pool, increasing the likelihood that genes of health problems can brought out in offspring, and there are a whole number of different selection criteria a breeder can use in choosing which dogs to breed together, health criteria and appearance criteria, several of each, would it be safer and increasing the chances of good health to minimize the the number of traits the breeder is trying to achieve in the offspring--would that preserve more genetic diversity? Or does it not matter how many different characteristics a breeder tries to achieve in the offspring, to the health of the animals and the breed?

Is this all a matter of speculation anyway? quite a complex subject.



SM MAY be related to selecting for a certain head but that is then more due to using ONLY a restricted number of winning sires over and over. But that doesn't explain why such numbers of cavaliers, just as many from unknown background, are presenting with SM. It clearly is only a possible contributing factor for certain lines, not the sole source of the problem. Clare Rusbridge, the leading authority on CKCS SM, doesn't think it is even a significant element.

Is it that the data that some interested parties are collecting (xrays and MRIs associated with different head types) is not as suggestive as those collecting it believe for some reason?


Basically, with purebreds, you either want your dog to look like a proper breed example or you don't care if they drift away until they start looking, as many byb/puppy mill cavaliers do, like they are crossbred with terriers, beagles, springers, etc. This causes all sorts of problems in and of themselves.

It's certainly an issue that for some people seems to present an ethical dilemma. But i get the impression this hasn't really been studied, there haven't been any systematic comparisons of purebred v mutts (not just crossbreeds but heinz 57s) to get an idea if there is any substantial health difference. The generalization that mutts are healthier than purebreds isn't really based on any proof (is that true?), but does make sense theoretically, in terms of restricted gene pools. It's an interesting subject to me, as i never was interested in having a purebred dog, i had known many in my life of course, but found my own mutts to be the best of dogs, cute, beautiful, friendly, sweet and smart, so didn't see the point in having a purebred--until i met a cavalier.


If people want genetic diversity, then it is better to choose one of the millions of needy crossbreeds in every shelter in n every country rather than support BYBs and puppy mills in demolishing a breed by disregarding both health or conformation.

I think that a lot of byb's do a lot of inbreeding--carelessly and crudely--just using one sire and one or two dams over and over, i don't think it's necessarily true that byb's use diversity. My impression was that some very highly ethical breeders advocated "breeding for diversity," even breed clubs had taken this position--but i'm not sure where i was reading this. Am i remembering wrong?


A white faced cavalier like any type of mismarking can always appear in any breeder's lines and is not a problem, simply an interesting variation in markings that would keep the dog from being shown -- if it otherwise was of show quality (very few dogs are of show quality).

This was one of the things i read in a mail group discussion, that there once was more diversity in the markings of cavaliers being shown than now. Why would that be, if it's true?

babyC
12th March 2007, 07:49 AM
Thanks Linda, but actually that is the famous Princess Dandyridge Brandywine, pet of Charlotte York from the show Sex and the City!

Her real name is "Penny" and she has been in movies, ads and even Oprah's O magazine!

ahhhh !! she's my favee .. ! :D have been searching for a long time for her clear pic!

Julie S
12th March 2007, 08:25 AM
I must admit that "Elizabeth Taylor" was the first I'd ever heard of a Cavalier! icon_whistling And she was such a cutie.

quoman
12th March 2007, 10:41 AM
Thanks for all the advice and info, not intending to show Charlie (obvious name I know but it seemed to fit) just want a happy healthy new member of the family, as soon as I have some pics I will post them up. we have hopefully bought from a reputable breeder, we've met the mum and seen xmas cards from dad !! looking forward to some interesting chats on here and gaining some very useful tips and help

Bruce H
12th March 2007, 11:19 AM
If you look at my avatar, you will see a beautiful tri that has just 1/2 of a mask that came out of our tri girl Pixxie. This was our first breeding of Pixxie, so we don't know if this is something way back in her lines or the stud's lines or if it was just a fluke. In any case, there's not a thing wrong from the standpoint of health, which is our primary consideration, she's just unique. In fact, I always thought she was the cutest of the bunch! We would not want to consider her for breeding because she does not fit the breed standard for markings, but we were very happy to place her with a wonderful family who just adore her.

*Pauline*
12th March 2007, 11:56 AM
I was keen to get some symmetry in the eye patches with Dylan before he was born but when his litter were born, I didn't go for the puppy with the best markings. He is pretty but it was his personality I loved.

I also think Bruce that your half mask puppy has the sweetest face of the litter.

I'd love to see a picture of this little white faced pup. I can tell you one thing, Dylan doesn't have much colour on his body and in the sun, he looks amazing, he glows.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/419295319_c6a56c2509.jpg