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Lynn
13th March 2007, 07:16 PM
Hello! I just got an email from the breeder that I bought Maxwell from. She has more puppies for sale. When I looked at the pups on her website, they have the SAME parents as Maxwell!!!! Max was born in August 2006, and now his mother just had another litter in January!!?? This raises huge alarms in my head!!!!!

Max has AKC papers....I thought this was a responsible breeder. I thought I was doing the right thing when I bought him from this breeder, but now I just don't know.

***I made some changes to this original post. Sorry for asking about breeding questions. It wasn't my intent to ask about breeding as it was more a question that maybe I had found an irresponsible breeder and THAT upset me. So sorry if I didn't follow the rules!!!! ***

inca
13th March 2007, 07:34 PM
2 years is ideal but a bitch should have at least one season and i mean at least ..........is it possible that the litter is a result of an accidental mating ?

who knows why some breeder do this intended the poor bitch has barely recoverd form the last litter

WoodHaven
13th March 2007, 07:37 PM
There are many things that decide how often to breed a bitch. I know Karlin doesn't like talking about breeding-- but I would like to clarify the point that a back to back breeding can be OK. Some factors are health and age of the bitch-- how often she'd been bred in the past.

Lynn
13th March 2007, 07:40 PM
I'm not sure if it was an accidential mating...I didn't ask. I was just SHOCKED to find out there was another litter so soon!!!! I just had to ask the group their opinion.

Thanks for the reply!!!!

Lynn
13th March 2007, 07:42 PM
Gosh, I'm sorry...I didn't mean to talk breeding!!!! I was just so alarmed. Maybe this thread should be taken off??????

WoodHaven
13th March 2007, 07:47 PM
I'm not sure if it was an accidential mating...I didn't ask. I was just SHOCKED to find out there was another litter so soon!!!! I just had to ask the group their opinion.

Thanks for the reply!!!!

Dr. Hutch (repro vet) seems to feel that you should wait until you can finalize initial health tests and breed 2 or even 3 litters in a row and then spay the bitch. I probably wouldn't breed two seasons in a row unless the bitch rebounded extremely well and had very small litters. We aren't big breeders and never will be-- but our conception rate averages between 5-6 pups born/litter.

Cathy T
13th March 2007, 09:42 PM
I think this is a great topic. I know a lot of us pet owners have the same question. How often is too often? Thanks to our breeders for giving us some info.

inca
13th March 2007, 10:01 PM
the only reason i see to be a reasonable one is if the bitch loses a litter or whelps one pup and age is against her and she is a top quality girl .....apart from this i don't think its right to breed back to back ..just my opinion

Bruce H
13th March 2007, 11:05 PM
The CKCSC Code of Ethics says you will not:

"2. Allow a bitch to whelp more than two litters during any three consecutive seasons."

In other words they allow a back to back breeding, but then the bitch must not be bred on her third season, esentially giving her approximately a year off. Now having said that, if a girl is going to be bred back to back, it is absolutely necessary that the girl be in excellent health and bounced back from the last litter easily.

Kodee
14th March 2007, 02:35 AM
I dont think this falls under the breeder discussions not wanted. Reading this thread helps educate us owners so we can recognize responsible breeders. This post isnt connected to discussing breeding programs or selling pups but rather what to look for when researching breeders. Good stuff I appreciate!

Remali
14th March 2007, 03:20 AM
I think this is a very good topic too.....like was mentioned, it helps to educate people, I already learned quite a few things just from this thread and I am very glad that you posted about this. And, I sure can understand your cause for concern, I would have wondered the same thing too.

Karlin
14th March 2007, 11:22 AM
Just to clarify: general discussions on breeding and breeding issues such as this one -- which helps people to understand how good breeders make breeding decisions and whether to have a concern about a breeder's breeding practices -- are fine.

What I don't permit are questions about how to breed, from someone who wishes to breed or is already breeding. This is because

1) for established reputable breeders, or reputable novices breeding with conformation and health as their priorities, there are lists oriented towards breeding and showing that wll provide such support, such as the Apple L-list on CKCS. Any reputable breeder in a recognised, reputable club will be aware of such lists, and novices will be able to learn of them through their mentor and their club.

2) This is a list focused on caring about the breed and sharing the pleasures of owning this breed and hence a number one priority has to be wanting breeders, the guardians of the breed, to follow best breeding practice.

In my experience ALL questions on personal breeding, posted to a general board such as this, come from backyard breeders (or people who are, but don't consider themselves to be, even though they do not know the first thing about breeding, health testing, genetics, lines, and the problems they can inflict on their puppies :( ). These are people who are not involved with clubs, are not showing, do not know the first thing about conformation, genetics or breeding for health, yet think they have a right to breed to either make money or because they 'love the breed'. No one who loves the breed would ever consider risking the health of not just the immediate puppies from a random, uninformed, unconsidered breeding, but to the breed overall.

That's why I give a set response to enquiries about personal breeding, encouraging people to stop, get involved with the breed, learn more, and get a reputable breeder mentor befaore even thinking about breeding themselves. Breeding is complex and complicated and the narrow gene pools in purebreds mean knowledegable breeding is crucial -- not least because most health issues result from breeding dogs that carry a genetic predisposition in their lines to throw up a problem, NOT from dogs that necessarily show the health problem themselves. Thus just breeding two outwardly healthy dogs means nothing -- yet backyard breeders will typically think this is all that matters -- if they even care about that. :sl*p: BYBs do not understand this, care or know about the lines of their dogs, or understand that good lines (eg the 'champion lines' always cited on BYB/puppy mill websites) carry all those bad as well as good genes. You need to know how to SELECT the right two dogs from any line and that requires detailed knoweldge)

So: please feel free to discuss general breeding issues! What I don't allow is questions on HOW to breed from people who are doing it or considering doing it.

A final note: because I think it is important for people to understand the complexity of the breeding process, and also because I know how wonderful it is to observe good breeders as they go through such a process, I totally supported Bruce's documenting his two litters and this remains one of the most read sections of this board. :) I also very much welcome the informed perspectives from our breeder members who can explain so many of the finer points of breeding and showing for the rest of us -- all of whichh helps us to appreciate the breed and the merits of choosing good breeders, and why supporting expert, caring, knowledegable breeders is so important. :thmbsup: :wggle:

quoman
14th March 2007, 11:22 AM
This is a very interesting topic, we've just purchased Charlie from what appears to be a good breeder, the internet advert they posted said all the right things, ie, KCregistered, insurance, mum with pups, etc, the house was adorned with cavalier pictures (including one of the dad), but at the end of the day you never know, we've since found out that ours is 'mis marked'(charlie has a pure white face) but we were never informed of this and when we queried it with the breeder they said they'ed never heard of that before so you never can tell really can you

inca
14th March 2007, 11:34 AM
we've since found out that ours is 'mis marked'(charlie has a pure white face) but we were never informed of this and when we queried it with the breeder they said they'ed never heard of that before so you never can tell really can you




do you mean they had never heard that a white face was classed as mis-marked?
sorry i haven't caught up in the threads today :)

quoman
14th March 2007, 12:42 PM
I know, that was when I began to think o dear is there anything else that they have'nt told us, I'm sure every thing is ok, I just think that when people are selling something at the end of the day thats just what they are doing, selling and offering the best sales pitch to do so

Cathy T
14th March 2007, 03:01 PM
My number one response when someone asks me how to find a reputable breeder is do not buy from the newspaper or from internet ads. A breeder website is totally different from buying from somewhere that advertises puppies for sale. The problem is that the byb have all the "key" phrases and words but can't live up to them. They know all of the right answers ie parents' health certs and health testing...but they don't actually do or provide them. The biggest piece of advice I can give is to go to shows, meet breeders and talk to other Cavalier owners. Word of mouth is the best way to find a reputable breeder.

quoman
14th March 2007, 03:35 PM
We'll have to differ on the internet approach as its the way the world does business nowadays, I tend not to go to dog shows as such, all we're looking for is a new member to our family, one would hope that someone who takes the time to place an in depth advert on the net could then back it up when met in person, we're happy with our little charlie having a pure white face as we see it, it sets him apart from the 'norm'

Cathy T
14th March 2007, 03:41 PM
We can agree to disagree :flwr: