View Full Version : Breeding two Black and Tans

29th March 2007, 06:36 PM

I have a female Black and Tan and my sister has a male Black and Tan (from diferent blood lines).Both dogs had one Ruby parent and one Black and Tan.I was wondering if it possible to get Ruby pups from these two dogs?

Thanks for your help.

30th March 2007, 12:43 AM
Hi and welcome to the board. I am going to suggest that before you post further, you have a good read through the Getting Started section as it notes in a couple of places that this board does not allow discussions of breeding related to personal breeding questions.

We do of course have pointers to how to get involved in a meaningful way with the breed -- with the knowledge that will enable you to one day become a breeder and a protector of the good qualities of this at-risk breed.

Generally: if you want to breed then you really need to put in a year or two with abranch of the national breed clubs so that you learn how to recognise and conserve valuable qualities and genes in a cavalier, learn about genetics and the health issues that haphazard breeding will likely cause to surface in puppies, become very familiar with the two very serious genetic (and therefore, spread by breeding) health issues now in the breed -- MVD and syringomyelia -- and learn whether you have a cavalier that is able to make a contribution to the breed's overall health, appearance and temperament. Pet cavaliers are not of this quality. Even an outwardly healthy dog carriies genes for both MVD and SM (polygenetic diseases that can not be easily predicted in offspring unless you ehealth test -- cardiac test and MRI). If you match your dog to another with the wrong combination of those genes, you will have puppies far more likely to be condemned to live short lives full of suffering -- not something anyone who truly cares about this breed would ever want to see (MVD already has knocked several years off the average lifespan of the breed -- all mostly spread by indiscriminate breeding). If you do not know anything about SM -- which affects at least a third of all cavaliers and has been seen in up to 70% of research samples -- please watch the videos here to learn what some of these lovely, gentle dogs live with:


If you are nervous of the idea of breeding because of these high risk genetic problems in the breed, then that's a good sign that you are rightly cautious and concerned, and that you need to put in a lot more time learning about dogs, the breed, showing to understand what you are trying to continue on in a cavalier line, and how to breed properly.

It really takes careful preparatory work, learning about the breed, to be a responsible breeder rather than a detriment to the breed -- and in general, a professional mentor is needed in the initial years. As well, pregnancy in this breed -- or any -- is always a risk to the life of your cavalier. If you do not feel confident to deal with the serious medical situations that can arise with both puppies and mother during pregnancy and whelping, and do not want to risk losing your own female cavalier, then again, breeding is best left to the professional show breeders.

I run Ireland's only cavalier rescue and can tell you that there is a serious problem of poorly bred cavaliers with health issues and shortened lives that come from two key sources: puppy farms and inexperienced breeders, who breed to make money from puppies, not to improve and conserve the breed and all its wonderful qualities. It is so much more fulfilling to not contribute to the problem ut perhaps get involved with a club, get involved in breed rescue, etc.

Incidentally are you aware that if you do not spay your cavalier she runs a 25% chance of mammary cancer? Making a decision not to spay in itself is taking healyh risks with a dog so be sure you consider very carefully what you wish to do with what I am sure is a much loved pet. :thmbsup:

30th March 2007, 12:59 AM
Hi Karlin,

Having read your post which I found extremely informative and heart felt I must quickly point out that I have no real intentions of rushing into puppyfarming or breeding for that matter.I myself am involved in a small way in genetic conservtion with Cichlids of Lake Tanganyika in Africa and so understand the need for vigelance.I am relatively new to dogs although I had a few as a child but without the real responsibility.
I appreciate the unfortunate list of ailments that haunt the breed and would never dream of spending so much money on a dog without having researched it fully.It is like Russian roulette when you consider the statistics.I was never really aware of the breed until my sister got one,Murph.I got a female as a friend for Murph as they see each other a few times a week.As of now I am not confident I would risk Winnies life just to make a few Euros.You must understand that these questions are purely just out of curiosity,not intention.

30th March 2007, 01:07 AM
Ok, I am glad to hear that; I was concerned because the question was phrased in the context of breeding two specific dogs, which goes outside the remit of the board. But I do have a link to a chart on possible colour combinations so you can see the possibilities of certain breedings:


The difficulty is that you cannot know what a crossing will produce unless you know the dominant and recessive colour genes each dog carries and what other colour dogs might be in the background. It is fairly complicated with this breed but one of our resident breeders may see this and reply.

That's great that you are working with cichlids; I keep fish too but basic community tanks. The African cichlids are wonderful but quite a tstep up from what I have been doing. :)

30th March 2007, 01:14 AM
I am guilty to an extent due to the phrasing of my post.I use alot of American forums and they are so
"by the book" that they can drive you insane.Therefore I add details that may obscure the point hidden in the text.Its great to see such a passion for conserving a breed that in my book are a worthy of the title Mans/Womans best friend. :)

In relation to the original question it is something we have talked about many times and couldnt get to the end of it ourselves.Im sure you understand.Thanks for your help.Keep up the good work.

Just to end Karlin,

I see you are in Dublin and you are interested in fish.The Irish Tropical Fish Society www.irishfishkeepers.com/forum is holding a Fish Show/Auction on May 20th in Tallaght.Just thought you might like to know,it will be a great day out with plenty of raffles and prizes,even fully furnished fish tanks with stands can be won.

30th March 2007, 01:28 AM
The little chart probably didn't help as it is quite confusing (the genetics that is)! I think if there's a ruby parent there is almost always the possibility of a ruby but it depends on the genotype of the B&T parent as black can trump red.

If you post the question generally to the general news forum I am sure one of our breeder members who really know the possibilities can clarify.

Thanks for the heads up on the fish auction/show!

Barbara Nixon
1st April 2007, 05:01 PM

I have a female Black and Tan and my sister has a male Black and Tan (from diferent blood lines).Both dogs had one Ruby parent and one Black and Tan.I was wondering if it possible to get Ruby pups from these two dogs?

Thanks for your help.

Yes it is possible as each will be Bb for the colour (white is governed by a different set of alleles ) Puppies could be BB, Bb or bb. ie black and tan, black and tan carrying red, or ruby, but the emphasis is on could. If the parents carry white, you could get all Blenheims or tricolours.

2nd April 2007, 12:10 AM
Precisely the answer I was looking for.Thanks.