View Full Version : If you are a BREEDER/have puppies for sale

15th April 2007, 09:56 PM

Please note I am not (and have not been for many months) accepting additional breeder members for the board, as it is primarily a pet owner focused board (see the post at the bottom of this thread for further information). Breeders generally will find that the Cavalier L-list group is probably more appropriate. :thmbsup:

For ethical reasons, I do not allow announcements of new litters to be posted to the board, or discussions of individual, personal breeding situations. This is also stated in the Getting Started section on what is appropriate to post.

Exceptions in the past for discussing puppies (though not *advertsing them*) were for reputable breeders on this board whom I know through their participation here and on other boards and lists, and who I know are actively concerned about health and conformation and temperament -- who breed with knowledge and with health clearances (cardiologist clearances on hearts as a minimum, plus ideally, certs on hips, patellas and eyes, and MRI scanning for syringomyelia) and who remain an active part of the breeding and showing world -- so that their cavaliers are under constant scrutiny of their peers. They home their dogs carefully under restricted contracts. They don't breed pet quality dogs of unknown background and health history just to fill a pet market.

It is very hard for me to know whether most people take into account some or any of these things when they have bred their dogs. And discussions of breeding only encourages others to do likewise and gives the impression that such breedings are fine with me and with everyone here. They aren't fine; and anyone breeding in this way should take time to learn why.

The long and short of it is: after a lot of thought, I have decided I do not want discussions of new puppy litters on the board by anyone. And unfortunately there are now so many members that it has become almost impossible for me or the breeders that I know to be reputable, to know about new breeders joining the list. That puts me in the awkward position of refusing breeder memberships.

But I despair of every single cavalier born to and sold by breeders who do not follow the heart protocols, do not register their dogs or who register with the bogus registries, who do not stay actively involved in the breed. Every one of those puppies is a potential liability to the breed if bred from in turn and is at risk of an early painful death SOLELY due to the breeder's indifference to the health of their breed. It is depressing reading about those who have bought such puppies years ago, and end up losing their dogs now to heart failure at young ages, 5 or 6 or 7 -- problems that could be minimised and even eliminated by responsible breeding. If you are not breeding to help lower the risk of MVD and SM, then you are contributing to the problem. Full stop. If you can live with that, that's despicable, but your business (literally :( ); but you are not welcome to talk about it here.

I sincerely hope this board helps people see why breeding in this way is so wrong (and why buying from such people is so wrong) -- get a good mentor, get involved with the breed and with showing, learn more about this breed and its health issues, and consider returning to breeding when you are able to improve the breed rather than contribute to its decline. For that is what indiscriminate breeding has already done to cavaliers, and every new litter bred in the same way is another blow to the breed's overall health. The legacy of the bad genes and bad practices one breeder introduces carries on for generations of ill cavaliers.

There are other boards and sites that allow lots of discussions on breeding and litters, and also that are focused on breeder interests and concerns, and given that there are these other resources, I don't feel it is overly restrictive to keep such discussions and participation controlled here.

For the same reasons, I don't allow links to breeder websites when they are used as an advertisement for puppies (as stated in the board guidelines) and will delete them when I come across them.

3rd August 2008, 06:22 PM
I have been getting an increasing number of registrations from breeders. As a result, I've needed to think about this situation as the board is and always has been primarily a pet owner board, with a small but active number of breeder members whom I feel contribute in a number of enjoyable, insightful and sometimes challenging ways to CavalierTalk. Most of our breeder members have been on the board for a long time -- many since the first months of its existence -- and thus clearly enjoy being part of a broader cavalier community and I know I have personally learned an enormous amount from them. Others here are people I have come to know in a personal capacity.

I wish to keep the balance as it is for now, with the breeder members we already have :). I feel boards and lists change in some significant ways if there's a large breeder membership. I have watched several of the discussion lists gain large and active breeder communities in recent years which changed how others participate -- or if they participate at all. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that if breeder issues are their focus, but it just isn't the profile I want for this board and never has been. I also feel large breeder numbers can curtail the willingness of others to be active here. I firmly believe the focus on pet ownership and restriction on general breeder participation here is what has led this board to be the single largest cavalier community on the web.

I'd steer interested breeders to the wide range of board and list resources there for breeders already, from the L-list cavalier group, which is mostly breeders, to other private breeder and general cavalier boards and lists.

I'd be happy to give any breeders involved in rescue posting access to the breed rescue forum; or anyone in club rescue is always free to PM or email me any rescue details they'd like posted to the forum and I will put them up. :thmbsup:

I recognise some may feel this is restrictive, and I will keep this approach under review. But I think diversity amongst the various lists and boards is a good thing. They do not all need the same membership lists and same purpose or intent or same conversations. Breeders can join most other lists and have several of their own, including a few breeder-restricted lists (on which are many who have complained of being refused membership here and the lack of their 'democratic right' to post here, even though the majority of people can neither view their lists, nor post there :lol: It is that kind of 'democracy' that makes me confirmed in the belief that most members appreciate keeping the membership closely managed here :) ).