View Full Version : Lots of white ?

25th April 2007, 02:15 PM
I have been looking at new and past posts. And a lot of post say that cavaliers with a lot of white are not allowed to be shown or breed.

I get the showing bit but why should they not be bred Finn.

Can someone explain it to me finn has a lot of white thats one of the reason I choose him

Can he not be shown or breed ?



brid kenny
25th April 2007, 02:39 PM
For show standards they ideally have a balance a balance in their markings but I'm no expert. You can still show the dog though.

25th April 2007, 02:43 PM
his coat is still furry so there is no need to be worried it will be a while before he has a nice adult coat!

25th April 2007, 02:48 PM
The breeder would have told you if he was of show quality (if the breeder was honest). Markings are the LEAST important element for either breeding or showing -- whether he is properly structured and moves well and a million other elements would be more important for showing, but he would likely be penalised for his markings even if he were perfect in other ways. He has very little mask and a lot of white -- generally you want red well broken up with white, eg a good mix of red and white, and a distinct mask and blaze.

Very few dogs are of breeding quality. First off, you need to be sure his parents are totally clear of murmurs at age 5. he would need to be a least 2.5 years old and also certified heart clear by a cardiologist (*not* a vet -- they are very poor at hearing the eearly murmurs you are checking for). Because about 50% of ALL cavaliers have amurmur by age 5, this eliminates half of all cavaliers from breeding from the start -- their parents will get murmurs by age 5, or they will have them. MVD and early onset murmurs is a leading cause of death in the breed and knocks several years of the breed's average lifespan so breeding for heart health is a top priority for anyone who cares about the breed.

Then: you need to test patellas, xray hips for hip dysplasia, have a vet eye specialist test eyes, and ideally, you should have your dog MRId for signs of the skull malformation that can lead to syringomyleia -- the malformation affects 90% of all cavaliers -- and also to check for whether his brain is protruding into his spine (a high number have this), or if there are syrinxes (about half+ have these). If your dog has any symptoms of SM before 2.5, and has any syrinxes on MRI, then it should not be bred.

The same needs to hold true for the dam.

So there are very serious health and conformation tests that a dog needs to pass before it would be considered of a quality to breed -- very very few cavaliers are of this quality, but unfortunately, many people just breed them haphazardly. One direct result of this type of indiscriminate breeding is that half will get heart murmurs at a young age and almost all our dogs will live several years less than another breed of similar size. Many will die a very slow and unpleasant death from complications around MVD.

That's why on this site, I have made health awareness a number one priority, and also, the need to support responsible breeding and responsible, health focused breeders. The breed is widely considered to be under serious pressure for its actual survival due to the health problems now bred into the breed. :( None of us should risk contributing to any further decline but instead, support those expert breeders who are working to rescue the breed from this possible pending disaster.

Unfortunately Ireland has a particularly high number of 'backyard breeders' (people with little to no breeding experience who just breed any two cavaliers in order to make some money off of puppies) and puppy farmers who breed cavaliers in mass numbers then sell them overseas or in Buy&Sell (we are the puppy farm capital of Europe and lots of these poor quality cavaliers find their way into pet homes where they are, even more sadly, bred themselves, passing along those poor genes). Also sadly there has not been a strong health focus in the breed club, so a puppy buyer needs to be extra cautious.

The best way for anyone to find out if they have a show quality dog is to get involved with their local breed club and attend shows, and ask to have their dog evaluated by someone with expertise. Breeding should never be even considered unless it is known you have a dog with excellent genes and who has been throughly tested to show that there are genes worth conserving. Even then, expert advise and knowledge of pedigrees and genetics is needed to avoid the catastrophes of passing along devastating conditions like SM, curly coat/dry eye, episodic falling syndrome, painful hip dysplasia, and so on. Most of these conditions are not actually seen in a parent -- they are genetically hidden or will only show on testing -- thus only expert testing and knowing the pedigree well and the health history in the dog's line will help a breeder make correct choices in a mate.

You can see in the many of us who own cavaliers with some of these breed-specific conditions the heartbreak that happens when dogs are bred without testing or any awareness of health issues within the line.

25th April 2007, 02:49 PM
i have no intention of ever showing finn. He's my new baby not a dog lol I just wondered why some people say this.

I do intend to breed finn once my friend has a king charles who is one and she would like her to have one litter before spaying her so when finn is old enough he will be daddy then he will be spayed too.

We will keep all puppies in the family. :)

Karlin I did get a cert from the breeders vet to say he has no heart murmurs now he has his first injection and is chipped I did see both his parents which are beautiful. I never mentioed to the breeder about showing she did ask and I told her he would be a family pet. She breeds only once a year from her dogs

25th April 2007, 02:57 PM
i have no intention of ever showing finn. He's my new baby not a dog lol I just wondered why some people say this.

I do intend to breed finn once my friend has a king charles who is one and she would like her to have one litter before spaying her so when finn is old enough he will be daddy then he will be spayed too.

We will keep all puppies in the family. :)

when folk say too much white they maybe refering to the wholecolours whom should have no white on them as this is seen as a fault and will not win in a class with pure wholecolours

breeding is not as easy as putting a dog and bitch together for a one off litter firstly their pedigree's may not be compatable even if both dog and bitch have full health certificates as Karlin explains well in the post above ..

25th April 2007, 03:10 PM
Niamh, please do NOT just breed your dog to a friend's cavalier. I would hope that if you have spent time on this board, you would understand just how important it is NOT to do this -- just breed any two dogs together with no healh testing and no knowledge of the dog's background.

A certificate saying Finn did not have a murmur is NOT a heart clearance for breeding, nor does it clear him for MVD. It merely is a cert from a VET (not a cardiologist) saying they heard no puppy murmurs. Almost no puppies have murmurs and the murmurs they do get are NOT from MVD. MVD only begins to show after the dog is at LEAST a year old. That is why a dog needs to be checked annually for murmurs. And that is why the heart breeding protocol says do NOT breed a cavalier before age 2.5 as it is unlikely to even show an early onset murmur before then, both MUST be certified by a cardiologist to be murmur free, and all their parents (that means EIGHT DOGS) most also be heart clear at 5. If you do not have the heart clearances for the dam and sire's parents, they should NOT be bred til they are FIVE. This is the internationally accepted breed guide for breeding to avoid MVD. Any other approach is totally irresponsible because the chance is so high that Finn and any other dog BOTH will get early onset murmurs by age 5 -- at least a 50% chance and it will likely be be HIGHER if you didn't know the heart status of the parents -- and will pass those genes on to their puppies. Just to give you an idea of what many Irish breeders are like -- Mattie's Mum on this board took a rescue dog from me, Sam, who was still being bred with a *grade 5 heart murmur and advanced heart failure*. The breeder told me he should be rehomed as a stud as he still could be used. THAT is the typical mindset of a certain kind of breeder. So there are a lot of very poor genes out there and a lot of suffering dogs.

You say the puppies will all be kept within the family: but how many of those puppies may be health disasters and bring a lot of unhappiness to those owners? And how many of those puppies will themselves be bred for 'just one litter'?

If you do nothing else, please read the information on breeding that I have in the Library.


Also: I also do NOT allow discussions of breeding on the board, as I have reiterated many times, and as also is clearly stated in the guidelines you agreed to when you registered for the board. So this is the end of this particular topic and I will now close this thread to further posts.