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Karlin
27th April 2007, 01:33 PM
A fairly well known cavalier breeder offers this helpful information on SM on her website:


Implications in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels

"I have a Cavalier, should I be concerned"?

This particular condition is known to affect less than 0.002% of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels so odds are very much in your favour that your dog would not have this condition.

How extraordinary -- when every research group in this area has stated a minimum of close to 40% of all breed samples are affected *with actual syrinxes*.

Perhaps she defines 'affected' in a different way than the entire research community? :sl*p: The words 'head' and 'sand' come to mind.

I don't think there's a club left that believes the level of affectedness is this low.

This reminds me of the sites that still claim no MVD in their colours or lines. :-| I had hoped show breeders had moved beyond this kind of claim.

Conclusion: if you are buying a puppy be sure to talk to your chosen breeder about this health issue and make sure you are dealing with someone who doesn't pretend like it isn't a concern. It is, as is very clear from the openness of reputable breeders to discuss it just as they discuss MVD. The chances remain low of seeing a symptomatic dog but all good breeders recognise that SM is a serious problem and that the goal must be to keep the number of symptomatic cases as low as possible.

coconut
27th April 2007, 01:52 PM
that is mad! How can people describe something as serious as SM like they did on that website!

WoodHaven
27th April 2007, 03:37 PM
Ok ---so if 2% was 1 in 50
.2% is 1 in 500
.02% is 1 in 5000
.002% is 1 in 50000 ???? Can you pm me this website please? thanks, Sandy

Jen
27th April 2007, 03:46 PM
What!?!? :yikes

I'd be interested in seeing this site, can you PM me the address, please?

Karlin
27th April 2007, 04:38 PM
Pmd you both. :)

Kodee
27th April 2007, 06:12 PM
Perhap's it was a typo with the decimel. Either way I am sure breeder to breeder if they are showing together, it will get all straightened out (assuming they are on the same show circuits).
Edit: as well the website page hasnt been updated since 2000 so is it possible recent research would be possible for the discretion in %?

Davy
27th April 2007, 07:30 PM
This reminds me of the sites that still claim no MVD in their colours or lines. :-| I had hoped show breeders had moved beyond this kind of claim.

My brother works in a large park in London and every time he sees a Cavalier he always tells me about the dog. He got talking to a lady one day who had a elderly ruby. He knows all about the health issues with Cavaliers, because of SiânE. So this lady tells him that not only does her dog not have MVD but Ruby cavaliers unlike the other colours don't suffer from it. :confused:

This was only last summer

Karlin
27th April 2007, 08:03 PM
Oh, I think it is this breeder's opinion, not a typo or an out of date article that has been forgotten. The article is somewhat misleading in other ways: yes, weimeraners get SM, but it is due to entirely different causes -- the equivalent of spinal bifida in humans, and is a completely different, well defined breed genetic problem for weimeraners and a few other breeds. This is mentioned as one cause of SM at the article's start but this clarification isn't made. Oddly, her percentage doesn't even fit into the percentage reported in the ACKCSC's own breed health survey, which reported a small number than research samples for obvious reasons (people do not tend to scan their dogs) but a high enough level for the prof of vet medicine who compiled the report to express deep concern.

This site has definitely been updated since 2000 because some of the information contained in the article was not available until the past couple of years and one site referred to was only set up in the past couple of years.

This breeder is also on lists that I frequent and would be familiar with ongoing studies. So it seems to be a personal choice to post this figure.

Breeder to breeder, the discussion sometimes, sadly, is how best to ignore the information coming out in the studies and to reassure puppy buyers that there is nothing to worry about. It's one reason I think breeders who are open about this condition and working as best they can to address it are very important to recognise and indeed, courageous. There has been a lot of opposition to the various researchers and a reluctance to make information available at club level. The UK Club has been an exception in having articles available from early on.

WoodHaven
27th April 2007, 08:23 PM
Pmd you both. :)

:flwr: Thanks-- I've been to that website before and I don't remember those stats being there.

Karlin
27th April 2007, 10:22 PM
The article is actually kind of hard to find. There isn't anything on SM listed on the health page and I wasn;t looking for SM info (I was actually looking for cherry eye info for another health post) but then I saw the link to 'articles' and was just interested to see what was there. I am wondering where that tiny figure came from -- I don't even remember it ever being believed to be so small once enough was known to identify it as a possible breed issue.

Kodee
28th April 2007, 12:18 AM
Now I remember why that site name is so familar! Its because of the location - I have read the blog companion site before. I'm glad my own breeder was in my neck of the woods was upfront with both sm, mvd, knees plus vaccinations, why to spay right down to the famous cavalier scoot all on our first visit!

The health section is for other health website links where as Article Library are articles they have written themselves. Oh well, I was just trying to give the benefit of the doubt.

Caraline
28th April 2007, 03:10 AM
Wow. It is frightening that people can set themselves up as authorities on a subject and have so little knowledge.

Karlin
28th April 2007, 11:57 AM
I think it is less to do with lack of knowledge than a choice made on what to say about the condition, as there's no doubt the person is familiar with ongoing research. This person is considered an informed health source more broadly on cavalier conditions. I am told (by some who contacted her) that she was contacted about this article and its figures quite some time ago and asked where they came from, but she clearly has chosen not to remove or revise it in the time since it was posted, though much more is known about the condition now than when this was written. It IS very outdated, and on a different site, she does offer basically the same information, a bit more up to date, but without the figures. Because it is the sole article on SM on her breeder site, and because she is known for offering information on breed health, this could unfortunately be taken as an informed article by the average person visiting the site for more information on important health conditions. It is a shame the article hasn't been pulled or updated, given the detail available on the site on other key conditions like MVD. :( It's a curious stance to take. icon_nwunsure Fortunately there is now a wide range of information available online on SM for those interested in learning more, so the figures would likely, by now, stand out as not fitting in with even the most conservative figures. Perhaps it will be updated in the future. :thmbsup:

Kodee
28th April 2007, 04:59 PM
because she is known for offering information on breed health, this could unfortunately be taken as an informed article by the average person.That is shocking! It's one thing for a uninformed or unprofessional breeder to do this sort of thing - but how does one rise in their community to such a status and get away with it. In a perfect world, that mistake will cost them their professional reputation or hopefully so, in time.

misty
30th April 2007, 09:36 AM
even I'm surprised that this breeder claims such a stupid figure.

I'd ask to see the website, but would only get more wound up.

Bet
1st May 2007, 09:49 AM
This might of a wee bit of interest to the List ,particularly in the UK

In the Scotsman Newspaper 30 -4- 07 yesterday,was an article mentioning that Government Ministers in Edinburgh and London are preparing to Ratify a Europe wide Treaty

The European Convention on the Protection of Pet Animals
This Treaty has already been signed by 18 other members of the European Union

The Kennel Club in Britain ,surprisingly,is one of the strongest voices against signing the Convention

the KC is actively lobbying Parliament trying to persuade the Governmentthat it has suitable mechanisms in place in place to ensure that Dog Breeds remain Healthy

I do hope that this does not include the Accredited Breeders Scheme
Ive recently contacted them about why Accredited Breeders are not required to Heart Test their Breeding Stock before a mating takes place ,since around 50%of Cavaliers could have a Heart Murmer by 5 Years of age
This means that Approx 13,000 Cavaliers were registered last year by the KC , and 6,000 of those Cavaliers could be suffering from a Heart Murmer in 5 years time.

I couldnt quote the KC Accredited Breeder Scheme CO-Ordinator SM Figures ,but made him aware of the problem in the Breed

The reply I got back ,was that ,it was not a Requirement under the ACC Breeder Scheme to Heart Check ,that the KC Must have a way of independently checking the results ,and this is not possible until the KC establishes an official Heart Testing Scheme

Perhaps ,when the European Convention on the Protection of Pet Animals by Britain ,this will focus the KC's Mind !!!

I believe that Mandatory Health Tests are a requirement

This would surely include MRI Scanning for Syrinxes in the fight against SM

Bet