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Moviedust
6th June 2007, 03:52 PM
While it may seem insane to me, I seem to remember reading somewhere information about how, in the past, it was standard (or at least not unusual) to dock a cavalier's tail similar to a cocker's. Thankfully, this practice is less common today, but I was surprised to see a cavalier puppy in my obedience class Monday night with a docked tail!

In talking with the owner, she was not even aware that cavaliers ever had tails! (She's young and inexperienced with dogs). She said the dog's mother didn't have a tail either, so she though a stub tail was natural!

Does anyone know more of the history of tail docking in cavaliers? What's the general practice now?

mishmosh
6th June 2007, 04:28 PM
What a shame. Cavalier tails wag like flags. I've never seen a Cavalier with a docked tail before.

New laws in England and Wales:
"As from April 2007 it will be illegal to dock puppies' tails (other than for therapeutic reasons or if a breeder can submit evidence to a Veterinary Surgeon that the dog is of a specified type to be used for work, rescue, armed forces, police, pest control)."

Scotland:
"As from 30 April 2007 it will be illegal to dock puppies' tails in Scotland (other than for therapeutic reasons) or to travel across borders to have them docked. "

rah rah!

Barbara Nixon
6th June 2007, 04:42 PM
The lady who bred Monty used to dock , until the rise against it about 15 years ago.

Are you sure the dog wasn't a King Charles, as they are usually docked ? This is partly to disguise the fact that some are born with kinks in their tales. Angela (AT) will tell you more.

Moviedust
6th June 2007, 04:50 PM
The lady who bred Monty used to dock , until the rise against it about 15 years ago.

Are you sure the dog wasn't a King Charles, as they are usually docked ? This is partly to disguise the fact that some are born with kinks in their tales. Angela (AT) will tell you more.

The owner registered the dog in the class as a cavalier, and while they can be very similar in appearance, it looks more like a cav than a charlie. I'm sure I'll find out more at next week's class.

AT
6th June 2007, 05:03 PM
The lady who bred Monty used to dock , until the rise against it about 15 years ago.

Are you sure the dog wasn't a King Charles, as they are usually docked ? This is partly to disguise the fact that some are born with kinks in their tales. Angela (AT) will tell you more.
Even owners dont always know the difference , there was a charlie advertised on one of the puppy sites recently as a cavalier.

I once saw a cav at the vets with a docked tail ,looked very odd , but it had had cancer so was docked to remove the tumor

I was reading an old article ( around 1900 )about the fashion for docked tails & how they had always had long plumed tails in the past.
I assume docking came about with the introduction of kinked tails in the king charles & continued in cavaliers because the breeders were used to it & some cavaliers would have had kinks too ( we had a rescue cav with a kink a couple of years ago)

AT
6th June 2007, 05:21 PM
New laws in England and Wales:
"As from April 2007 it will be illegal to dock puppies' tails (other than for therapeutic reasons or if a breeder can submit evidence to a Veterinary Surgeon that the dog is of a specified type to be used for work, rescue, armed forces, police, pest control)."

Scotland:
"As from 30 April 2007 it will be illegal to dock puppies' tails in Scotland (other than for therapeutic reasons) or to travel across borders to have them docked. "

rah rah!



the theraputic reasons bit is the part that confuses me

the kennel club site has this information

Q: In my breed, kinked and screwed tails are relatively common and are usually docked as they can result in injury later in life. Will I be allowed to continue to dock these dogs?

A : No. It will be against the law to dock any dog ‘except for medical reasons’ no matter whether the tail is kinked or malformed in any way. If an injury occurs then a veterinary surgeon would be at liberty to amputate the tail.
...............

I take this to mean that if a puppy is born with a very badly kinked tail ( some are as bad as cork screw or z shaped) you will have to wait until its older & in agony to warrant having its tail amputated under an anisthetic ? ( not a nice op )
( or have it put to sleep at birth which I would find a heart breaking choice to make if I ever bred )

Don't get me wrong I don't like docking at all but I know from experience in some cases it is needed for the dogs welfare.

Barbara Nixon
6th June 2007, 06:15 PM
I've just noticed that I typed dog's tale ! Yesterday I typed over their. Goodness, I do know which version of the spellings to use but my brain tells my fingers to type the wrong one. A bit like my sister-in-law, on her first driving test (which she failed), driving at a car the examiner mentioned, just to warn her.

Bruce H
6th June 2007, 07:13 PM
From the CKCSC breed standard:

Tail:Set so as to be carried level with the back. Tail should be in constant, characteristic motion when dog is in action. Docking: Docking is optional, but whether or not the tail is docked, it must balance the body. If docked, the tail must not be cut too short; two-thirds is the absolute minimum to be left on the body, and the tails of broken-colored dogs should always be docked to leave a white tip.


I can't imagine docking a Cavalier's tail. Besides considering it cruel, the tail is one of the features that adds to the beauty of a Cavalier. I don't ever recall seing a docked tail on a Cavalier.

Barbara Nixon
6th June 2007, 07:21 PM
I can't imagine docking a Cavalier's tail. Besides considering it cruel, the tail is one of the features that adds to the beauty of a Cavalier. I don't ever recall seing a docked tail on a Cavalier.

I agree. I think many of us are surprised that the standard hasn't been ammended.

Moviedust
6th June 2007, 08:59 PM
Even if AKC still permits docked cavaliers to compete in breed competitions, you would think that the breeder (if at all decent) would at least ask the potential owner if s/he wanted the tail docked. I'm not a breeder, so this could be a completely naive thought.

Perhaps the breeder's line has kinked tails, and rather than breeding it out, simply docks?

My curiosity is peeked; I'll have to find out more next Monday!!

Cathryn
6th June 2007, 09:17 PM
I have yet to see a Cavalier with a docked tail! The new laws that came into force on April 1st now strictly forbids this practice (UK that is) however as I live in a semi-rural area I can say that my vets case load will certainly increase somewhat as there are many farms round here who sell packaged pheasant shooting days. I know for a fact that when they tried to ban docking initially a few years ago he had a lot of springer spaniels who needed their tails amputated having had them severly damaged whilst working in very dense undergrowth. There is a time and a place for tail docking and I (personnally) feel that dogs who will go on to be trained to the gun should still be docked to save them the trauma of a major surgery later in life and a huge vets bill for their owners further down the line! Just my opinion is all!!

Caraline
7th June 2007, 01:39 AM
I've never seen a CKCS with a docked tail but when I did a google search on the subject some of the sites indicated that tail docking was optional. Seems odd to want to remove such a beautiful feature of the breed.

Tail docking has been outlawed here in Australia for several years now, and ear cropping has never been allowed. I am pleased & relieved about this because despite what some would have you believe, it is painful, no matter what the age. There is crazy notion that a very young puppy does not feel pain. I've seen a tail docking done on a 4 day old puppy & it hurt the poor little thing like hell.

I think it is a shame that there is a out-clause in the ruling about tail docking because there will always be those that will abuse that clause, and there will be vets who will back it up. We went through all that crap here in Oz with the Boxers. People had the most ridiculous excuses for cropping, like "the tail is like a whip & will break if wagged too enthusiastically". During the changeover period when it was optional to show a Boxer with or without a tail, it was no secret (because they said it themselves) many judged said they would never give a place to a Boxer that still had its tail. :swear:

To be quite honest, I think a lot of those people were afraid that their own dogs did not have good tails & docking them masked that.

Sorry, I've gone off in a tangent.

WoodHaven
7th June 2007, 02:58 AM
some breeds have tails that look rat like-- some are kinked. A cavaliers tail was allowed to be cut back-- and if I remember correctly, there was one in the USA that has had his tail cut. I believe he came from England. No-- I'd never do it.