View Full Version : Think I may have made a mistake

9th June 2007, 05:32 PM
I don't know alot on the issue about other registries but my dog is registered with APRI. From what I've read in here is that they are not a reputable registry like the all famous AKC.

It must be lack of knowledge on my part that I purchased this dog. Now my worries are that he may be from a puppy mill and not healthy.

So it seems that I cannot register him with AKC. Am I right?

Cathy Moon
9th June 2007, 05:57 PM
If the breeder didn't register his sire and dam with AKC, I don't think you can register him.

Karlin has posted this in the library forum about registries:

You are not alone; other members have had this happen, so don't be too hard on yourself! Your puppy is still a precious pup in every way and deserves a loving home. The best thing you can do is try to help educate others so they won't buy puppy mill and BYB cavs.

My male cavalier, Geordie, has an early onset heart murmur, and he came from an ethical breeder who does health testing and follows breeding protocols. The health problems in cavaliers will not go away overnight, but we need to educate ourselves and buy from the breeders who are actively testing and working to improve the overall health of the breed.

9th June 2007, 07:08 PM
As Cathy said, there are no guarantees when we get a puppy. We do the best we can when we purchase one. However, when we adopt one from a rescue we often don't know their background but we accept them and love them for who they are. My son and daughter-in-law have rescued 2 dogs and they are wonderful pets. So, don't overly stress about your baby's background just love him and take care of him and hopefully he won't have health issues. Judy

9th June 2007, 08:09 PM
If the breeder didn't register his sire and dam with AKC, I don't think you can register him.

How do I go about finding out if they're registered with AKC?

Cathy Moon
9th June 2007, 08:39 PM
You will have to ask the breeder.

Our breeder gave us an AKC dog registration application with all of the information about the litter filled in and her signature. It had the sire and dam names and AKC registration numbers on it, plus the sire's AKC DNA number.

We filled in our information and our dog's registered name, then sent it and a check to AKC. We also requested a 3 generation pedigree.

Cathy Moon
9th June 2007, 08:44 PM
Did your breeder give you the names of your puppy's sire and dam? If so, you may be able to look them up on the OFA site:

This will show you if your breeder did any health testing on the sire and dam - it will show Cardiac, CERF (eye), Hips, Elbows, Patellas.

Cathy Moon
9th June 2007, 09:00 PM
I just did some research on the AKC website. AKC doesn't recognize APRI as a registry:

Click on the 2nd question under 'Eligibility'.

10th June 2007, 12:20 AM
Why do you want to register him with the AKC? If it is because you want to show him in conformation and his parents are not AKC then you won't be able to register him. If you just want to show him in the performance events, obedience or agility type events, than as long as he is neutered you can apply for an ILP number and then he will be eligible to show in any of the performance events.

You can read about the ILP at akc.org


Barbara Nixon
10th June 2007, 12:04 PM
You are better informed, for the future, but don't panic about your dog's origins, now that you have him. Puppy mills are not nice places and they do breed some unhealthy animals, but this is not always the case. Some animals from the most aweful backgrounds, stay healthy and have long happy lives, while some, who have the best start possible, leave us far too soon.

10th June 2007, 12:52 PM
Good advice above.

Just some additonal info that is on the AKC wensite: if the breeder was not AKC registered (or alternatively in the US, CKCSC registered (either is a sign the breeder at least meets some *minimal* standards but NB is still not a guarantee of a reputable, health-focused breeder) -- then the puppy cannot ever be registered with AKC (except as noted nto a special subcategory, if neutered and entered for dog sports).

This is some basic info from the AKC site (the CKCSC wuld basically be the same):

Papers and Identification

When you buy a dog represented as AKC registrable, you should receive an AKC Dog Registration Application form properly filled out by the seller. When you complete your portion and submit it with the proper fee, this form will enable you to register the dog. When the application has been processed, you will receive an AKC Registration Certificate.

Under AKC Rules, any person who sells dogs represented as AKC registrable, must maintain records that make it possible to give full identifying information with every dog delivered even though AKC "papers" are not yet available. Do not accept a promise of later identification.

The Rules and Regulations of the American Kennel Club stipulate that whenever someone sells or delivers a dog registrable with AKC, the dog must be identified by providing the buyer with a properly completed AKC Dog Registration Application for a dog not yet individually registered or a properly completed AKC Registration Certificate for a registered dog. If neither of these is available, the person delivering or shipping the dog must furnish the person acquiring the dog with a bill of sale or written statement, signed by the seller, giving all of the identifying information listed below.

For a Dog Not Yet Individually Registered
Sex and color and markings
Date of birth
Litter number (when available)
Names and numbers of sire and dam
Name of breeder
Date sold or delivered

For a Registered Dog
Registered name
Registration number
Date sold or delivered

This identifying information must be supplied with the dog even though AKC papers are not yet available, and even to a person who takes the dog only for resale as an agent or on consignment, and the same information must be passed on by him when he disposes of it. When you do receive the properly completed AKC registration papers, verify the papers against your bill of sale to ensure that all the information is correct. Please be advised that a dog will not be registered or transferred without the proper AKC registration papers.

If you are buying a dog that is supposed to be registrable with the AKC you should realize it is your responsibility to obtain complete identification of the dog or you should not buy the dog. Failure to get AKC "registration papers" causes more grief for buyers of purebred registrable dogs than any other problem except sickness. It has long been common practice to explain the inability saying "AKC hasn't sent the papers yet." The essence of this and similar excuses is that because the American Kennel Club is at fault, papers are not available. The fact is that the processing of any AKC registration item takes approximately three weeks. If a breeder is doing his paperwork in a regular, careful manner, there is ample time to obtain the necessary "papers" from AKC prior to the sale of any puppy. When "papers" are not available at the time of delivery, it is a red-flag warning sign to exercise extreme caution.

Further info at this page: https://www.akc.org/reg/about.cfm

Often breeders register the puppies and the puppies must already be registerable to registered parents to begin with, if that makes sense. Breeders register the pups, not owners, as a norm for many recognised foreign national registries such as the Irish Kennel Club -- we never return the forms ourselves; the breeder does the registration that is then issued to the new owner.

If you want to try showing there are often fun local shows people can get involved in that aren't club-run formal shows and won't require a formal breed club registration. The best way to get involved on a more serious level with the breed would be to join your local AKC or CKCSC club, start to learn more about the breed, conformation etc, find a mentor, and start to soak up knowledge. :)

Cathy Moon
10th June 2007, 01:15 PM
I'd like to add this information about Agility - if you decide to get involved in agility when your puppy is grown.

There are several agility venues, I belonged to CPE - Canine Performance Events, TDAA - Teacup Dogs Agility Association, and USDAA - United States Dog Agility Association. There are other groups as well. All have websites for information, etc.

These venues have their own agility events and the dogs do not have to be purebred or have an AKC registration. Actually I think CPE and TDAA are more fun.:)

11th June 2007, 12:00 AM
Why do you want to register him with the AKC?

I was just wanting to breed him later and thought that if he were AKC registered the adopter might feel more comfortable buying a dog registered with the AKC. And of course take him to the vet regularly and show proof of shots, records, etc... Basically I wouldn't want to be a back yard breeder. But thats a while from now. I need to do more research on breeding and so on...

11th June 2007, 01:01 AM
I was afraid this might be why you were concerned about the registry and hope you will take on board the concerns of people who truly love this breed but have lived wiuth the horrible afflictions this breed is prone to because of poor breeding, and wish for every breeder to breed the right way. Please do not consider breeding until you have read some of the posts here regarding this issue (if you search on breeding you will produce many past threads on the larger issue of breeding and health -- though note I do NOT allow breeding discussions on individual cases as one reason this board exists is to focus on good health and therefore to strongly *discourage* indiscriminate breeding because it is so damaging to this wonderful , but at-risk breed).

A dog from such a registry as yours should never be bred -- a breeder using these registries, which exist only to give an appearance of legitimacy but mean nothing at all, will never have done even the most basic health tests (hearts, hips, eyes, patellas). To begin with, to breed with any regard for health you should at minimum follow the MVD protocol, which means waiting til your dog is at least 2.5 years old and then ONLY if both your dog's parents were heart clear at age 5 (eg checked by a cardiologist for murmurs, not a vet. Vets miss most early onset murmurs -- but your breeder will very definitely not have done this. If she has, you should be able to find the dire and dam listed on the OFA website and their heart status). If you do not know the heart status of BOTH parents, a cavalier should never be bred before age FIVE, and then only if the dog remains heart-clear at that age. 50% of all cavaliers have early onset murmurs by age 5 so this is extremely important if you do not wish to risk condemning every puppy to a painful early death from heart failure. Many of us here can tell you first hand how painful this is for the dog and how hard it is for the owner to lose a loved dog at only age 5 or 6 because of an uncaring breeder.

In addition you need to understand the serious problem in the breed with syringomyelia and make your breeding decisions accordingly: over 90% of all cavaliers have a skull malformation which means the skull is too small for the brain; in a large percentage of cavaliers this forces the brain out into the spinal cord; in at least half og cavaliers this induces a potentially devastating and painful condition called syringolmyelia. Many of us can tell you first hand how horrific this condition is because we either have euthenised dogs with it, or live with them. No one should even consider breeding this breed without watching these three videos of SM-adffected dogs (the first is my own):


and understanding the breeding issue:


Also please read the subforum on MRIing breeding dogs being moderated right now by Cathryn -- the recommendation from neurologists is that this breed should not be bred without MRIing and grading the dog and this is what she will be doing on Tuesday. You can read her reasoning why, as an experienced breeder, she is doing this.

Breeding is a very serious responsibility because you are dealing with the very restricted gene pools of a purebred dog and cavaliers have an especially small gene pool that has these two potentially devastating health issues. Thery are also costly to treat and in the US, the breeder is going to be expected to furnish a contract that indicates a willingness to cover medical expenses for genetic problems that show early. SM can show as early as 12 weeks; an MRI costs anywhere from $800-2,500, the decompression surgery costs about $5,000. So consider those financial responsibilities carefully.

Finally: I am assuming that because you are concerned that your breeder might NOT have performed appropriate testing, that you were definitely going to do all these things yourself and only breed your dog with another dog from a reputable breeder who also has thoroughly health checked her lines, knows genetics, and is familiar with several pedigree generations of the health history of her dogs (as you need to be with your own?). The problem is that any reputable breeder will expect your dog to follow the guidelines of the MVD protocol which means obtaining the dog from a breeder who has all the cardiac certs etc. The only breeders who will be doing all of this the proper way are registered breeders involved with the legit clubs, not the bogus registries. Thus the right way to go about this is to get involved with your local club, learn the ropes, learn about the breed so you understand whether you have a dog that has genes worth passing on... start to show, get a mentor, etc. :thmbsup:

I am locking this thread because I do not want further discussions on breeding or this specific case as these are important issues to discuss with a mentor, not on a public discussion board. Also you might want to go back to your breeder and try to find out why she uses the registry she did; whether she can furnish the health certs you need to feel confident in her breeding skills, and if she can't, ask why not and why she didn't discuss thoroughly the breed health issues and show you the health clearances of the parents, before selling you a dog (every reputable breeder will expect to do this). Also, the board is full of information on the key breed health issues, what to look for in a reputable breeder, first hand accounts of living with cavaliers with some of these serious problems (needing patella surgery, SM surgery, heart medications). If you want to read how involved the proper breeding process is, read Bruce's forum on his two litters. You will see proper breeding practice is both expensive and risky -- and not to be taken lightly. :thmbsup: