View Full Version : The Results are in!

13th June 2007, 01:00 AM
Hi all!!

Well the results are in, I will post about the day itself in the actual diary thread, but it has been a long day, a VERY long day and in all honesty I am left feeling somewhat more confused than when I started!!

I left home at 12:45pm and arrived at Chestergates at 2:30pm, pretty good time! I went to tell them I was there and was informed that they were running at LEAST an hour behind!! (I had been warned about this earlier in the day,Many Thanks that person! ;) ) more on what followed in the diary pages! I was a bit annoyed as I had been contacted by Chestergates the afternoon before and asked if I could get there earlier than my 4pm appt! But you have to think of other peoples dogs being admitted as emergencies and be tolerant I feel!

So the girls were finally admitted for sedation at approx 5:30pm (Tasha) & 6pm (Bella) I got Bella back first at about 7pm follwed by a very drowsy Tasha at 7:35pm!! We then had to wait to be called for our results, I of course was last, and by mere chance the "big cheese" himself Mr.Skerritt wandered into the waiting room! I passed a few minutes asking about the overall results of the MRI's today and Mr.Skerritt asked who my dogs were, he went off and found the film for the 2 girls and said "Come on, let's speed this up a bit!" and suddenly he was taking me off to a consult room and showing me the MRI's of Bella and Tasha, and what a result it was!! :confused:

Both of my girls are free of Cereballar Herniation! Both are free of Middle ear disease!! Then Mr,Skerritt said things "Get interesting here!" Uh Oh!! Yes the back of their brain has not herniated HOWEVER, BOTH have syrinxes, to differing degree's! Tasha has according to Mr.Skerritt a "large" syrinx, he could not believe that she was asymptomatic!! I explained her bad injury early in life, (A syyrinx can be "Acquired" through injury) and he agreed that this could be a cause of Tasha's syrinx, Bella too has a syrinx but smaller, I had trouble seeing it in all honesty! I was basically told not to breed from either of these girls!

I feel I must point out here that Mr.Skerritt DOES NOT, as Karlin pointed out follow the grading system, I was also informed this morning that he has actually told people not to breed from dogs who on further examination of the MRI scans/film turned out to actually be Grade A passes!

I feel like I have taken one step forwards and two steps back!! Tasha for certain is no longer included in my breeding plans, I simply cannot do that to her! Bella on the other hand, I am still very much in 2 minds about! I feel in a way cheated, I got the MRI's done but was not given grades for my dogs! I think I will most certainly be showing those scans to my own vet first off, I will also most certainly be sending the pictures (on a giant X-Ray film sheet) to Clare Rusbridge (Or some-one else similarly qualified) for further evaluation, I am NOT fully convinced when it comes to Bella!

So now I have the burning question of "What about Crystal and her litter"??? Well, I think the best plan of action would be to have Crystal herself MRI'd after the pups are weaned and to (if possible) run on the entire litter and MRI them all once they are old enough, their father is from a completely unrelated line, who knows what I may have bought in with his genes??

So basically, Tasha is out of the breeding picture, Bella is still an unknown until I get her film evaluated/graded!

I have before me the documents Chestergates sent me home with, they summarise the findings for both girls and read as follows:-

"Tasha" Blenheim Bitch:-
"Cerebellar Herniation" sequences used T1 sag TE=26cms T2 Trans, Result ABSENT
"Dilated Venticles" Sequences used, as above, Result Present times 2
"Syringohydromyelia", Sequences used, as above, PRESENT
"Middle ear Disease". Sequences used, as above, ABSENT

"Bella" Blenheim Bitch:-
"Cereballar Herniation" Sequence used (as Tasha's) Result, ABSENT
"Dilated Ventricles" Sequence used (as Tasha's) Result ABSENT
"Syringohydromyelia", Sequence used (as Tasha's) Result, PRESENT
"Middle Ear Disease", Sequence Used (as Tasha's) Result, ABSENT

As Mr Skerritt said, quite an interesting result! Neither girls have the Cereballar Herniation, yet both it would appear have syrinxes and in Tasha's case he could not believe that she was asymptomatic!!

So I am a bit confuddled (confused) myself in all honesty, I look at those images when I get home (at 9:45pm!!) and find it all most bemusing, OK I needed to know but this is neither one thing or another!! Hmm I need a good nights sleep on this!! Will do a thread on Cavalier Talk and a diary entry then get off to bed I think!!

So there you have it folks!! I would like to point out that any opinions expressed are quite simply my own, make of them what you will but they are not cast in concrete, at the end of the day we all have a right to our own opinion and are free to make our own decisions!!

Last of all a huge Thank You to the people who sent me messages of Good Luck for today, they meant a great deal, I wish you all well!

Best Wishes, off to write in the diary now!!

13th June 2007, 02:01 AM
Cathryn: wow, that is lots to take in. You must be utterly exhausted. They ran late the day I was there too and I had no car so was stranded with no food or drink; plus the stress of worry -- I know just how draining it all must have been. :flwr:

I am on deadlines out here in Calif and will post later on when I have time -- but let me say briefly that I am really sorry there are syrinxes and have a couple of ideas for you -- one would be to have Clare Rusbridge interpret the results which I think she will do for a small fee (maybe around £25 per MRI?) that goes back towards research. That might provide some more information of help to you.

I do know that Clare Rusbridge and many of the researchers who met in London do not think cerebellar herniation is necessarily an indication of seriousness of the condition -- often large herniation is matched by no symptoms just as more severe malformations can have no symptoms. And more rarely some dogs with malformations alone have symptoms but no syrinx. Humans can get similar symptoms from the malformation alone hence there are two conditions: Chiari Malformation (CM) whch may be alone or accompanied by SM (syrinxes). The recognition that the same holds for dogs is one reason why the London meeting researchers elected to change the name to CM/SM as dogs can have one or the other or both and have symtoms, or none. It is a very strange condition.

The cine-MRI study from North Carolina was an attempt to look at CSF flow patterns and differences in affected and unaffected dogs. There is a theory that dogs vary in how CSF moves through their system and that for some it moves in such a way to cause more severe syrinxes. It is known in humans that changing the way a decompression surgery is done based on individual CSF flow can influence results. This is an area only just starting to be explored (you can see how much is there to research yet!).

I am so sorry you have lost one of your loved dogs from your breeding programme. :(

13th June 2007, 03:48 AM
i am so sorry that you have lost tasha from the breeding program but i am sure she will continue to have a happy life with your folks. i would definitely give yourself more time to think adn get a second opinion before making any definite decisions. will continue to keep my fingers crossed for you and your girls!

13th June 2007, 04:05 AM
Oh boy... I really feel for you. I hate those iffy diagnosis as they tend to pull you every way. I am sorry that you have had to take Tasha out of the breeding loop when you had such hopes for her. I am not educated enough about SM to be able to comment on the findings, but my heart goes out to you.

Barbara Nixon
13th June 2007, 09:23 AM
I'm so sorry about this, Cathryn. I think it probably bestnot to breed with tasha, anyway, as the weight of a pregnancy could put a strain on her nerve damage, anyway.

It wasn't a good day for me , yesterday, either. Monty went for his annual and his mvd has gone to level 5. Still no symptoms, but my big boy now appears more mortal and I have to risk anaesthetic, next week, as he needs two bad molars removing. They offered preanaesthetic bloods, but these would only show whether he can stand an anaesthetic. I see it, though, as risk the anaesthetic or risk poisoning his system with tooth infection, so the former would be kinder to Monty.

Cleo's Person
13th June 2007, 11:20 AM
Oh Cathryn my heart goes out to you today. You got the worst kind of result - neither one thing nor the other. :(

I'm sorry you have to lose Tasha from your breeding programme. She is a lovely dog and I'm sure she will have a loving and very happy home with your parents. Although you can't breed from her, you can still enjoy her company and I'm sure she'll be an excellent Aunt to any pups who arrive along. As for Bella, I'm not at all qualified to comment on her condition, but generally tend to subscribe to the mantra "when in doubt get a second opinion".

I'm full of admiration for your courage in undertaking this test on your girls. I know it can't have been an easy decision to make, given the potential outcomes. At least now you know and can make informed, educated decisions about what is best for your girls.

Please do keep us posted on any future developments.:flwr:

matties mum
13th June 2007, 11:33 AM
I am so sorry about the result ----Aileen and the gang (Jazzie---Barney---Sam)

13th June 2007, 12:17 PM
I do hope you get a second opinion, you've been so brave taking this step, if only all breeders would make this journey. Now at least you can make the appropriate decisions and know that you've done the right thing for the future of the breed. Well done.

13th June 2007, 01:16 PM
Cathryn, I'm so very sorry that Tasha has had to be removed from your breeding program - heartbreaking when she is so lovely, but at least you know, and this avoids putting her through a potentially very painful labour for her.

It is very confusing with regard to Bella - as we said, I think it would be useful to ask Claire or Nick Jeffreys for an opinion...

It's worth having a read through Karlin's SM site, there is some information here about understanding MRIs

http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/diagnosing/mris/mris.html which might help.

I presume there must be some malformation, even if there is no herniation?

Just wanted to let you know that we are thinking of you - sorry you had such a long and tiring day, and that it wasn't the news you were hoping for...

One of the biggest difficulties with Syringomyelia is even identifying the symptoms -they can be so different from dog to dog, and it can be hard to identify what is "normal" behaviour.

I do think that as responsible dog guardians we all need to be aware of the symptoms, not to be obsessive and worry about every little thing they do, but so that we can recognise the condition.

http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/diagnosing/diagnosing/symptoms.html is a good place to start.

Sadly I think that many people will have been disappointed with their results - but hopefully many new clear dogs will also have been discovered, which will help the breed.

I really admire everyone who is being brave enough to scan their dogs...as always, we should be doing everything we can to support the responsible breeders who are health testing.

Margaret C
13th June 2007, 04:56 PM

I am so sorry.
You really deserved better news.

Ring me any time if it will help. Leave an answerphone message if necessary. I will always get back to you.

Best wishes, Margaret