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View Full Version : I guess no good deed goes unpunished



Bruce H
24th June 2007, 10:42 PM
As I'm sure a lot of you know, the Cavalier breeders world is a small world. Well, Kris just got back from a dog show and informed me that there is a breeder who has been telling others that our dogs have SM. Their reasoning behind this is that I sponsored the fundraiser for Clare's and Penny's research, so therefore I must have SM in all my dogs. I am so mad at this person I could eat nails! I am having a real hard time being civil. That's about as stupid as saying because we test hearts every year, that all our dogs must have MVD.

I hate people that start rumors like that for whatever reason. I hope that rational people understand the reason I sponsored the fundraiser. I'm going to end it at this because I refuse to be a part of gossip. Besides, I'm too mad to type anything more.

Cathryn
24th June 2007, 10:54 PM
Oh Bruce!

I am so sorry to hear that they are so small minded as to start that rumour, some people just cannot see the woods for the tree's! There is so much of this it is untrue, I know how you must be feeling believe me!
We all know why you sponsered the fundraiser, heck I am now very cross and can't really say what I want to either! :swear:

Now go and cuddle your wonderful dogs and remember the good you achieved with the fundraiser, leave those people in the past where they belong for they are not worthy of your attention!!

:hug: because I think you need one right now!!

AT
24th June 2007, 11:00 PM
Someone went round saying a friends dog was not shown anymore because it was dead from Sm (its still alive & well to this day !)
& another friends puppy died & a person took it upon themselves to publish on their website the pup had died from sm which was totally untrue.

very hurtful & nasty

There are some very strange people around & it doesn't help solve the real problems ....

coconut
24th June 2007, 11:07 PM
oh bruce don't mind them i really admire u for what u have being doing as a breeder and supporting claire and penny so keep up the good work :-)

matties mum
24th June 2007, 11:14 PM
Oh Bruce there is some very spiceful people about you go and give your dogs a hug ---Aileen and the gang(Jazzie---Barney---Sam)

Karlin
24th June 2007, 11:21 PM
I am so sorry that this has happened. I wish I could say I am shocked, but I am afraid I am not.

It is sad there are people who diminish themselves in this way and clearly care so little for the breed they supposedly value.

jld
24th June 2007, 11:39 PM
Those comments are so mean-spirited. I am sure everyone who knows you, knows the real reason you sponsored the fundraiser and would never believe the negative remarks about your dogs. The breeder that I got my puppy from was telling me that she was going to get back to seriously showing her dogs, but that she had learned from past experience that if you become too successful rumors start flying about your dogs, or you, because of the jealously and competitiveness of the show circuit. How sad !!!!!! I am sure that is not always the case, but I guess it can happen...... Judy

Cathy T
25th June 2007, 12:37 AM
Unfortunately I am like Karlin in that I am not surprised. Disappointed, angry and upset...but not surprised. Why is it that people find it necessary to spread malicious rumors to diminish some people? It's just wrong...and I will stand up for you every single chance I get....bring 'em on!!!:swear:

Cathy Moon
25th June 2007, 12:37 AM
Wow, that is very unprofessional, unsportsmanlike conduct for someone who should be a protector of this breed.

We're grateful that you put forth the energy to raise funds for Clare's research, and I'm sure we will all stand up for you if we ever hear someone say anything like that!

It is truly amazing how low some people will sink.:mad:

I know of another cavalier breeder who is starting a fund raiser for Clare's research, and I hope there will be many more to follow!

Keep your chins up, Bruce and Kris, we truly appreciate what you've done!:thnku:

Bruce H
25th June 2007, 01:39 AM
Well guys, I feel better now; sorry for the rant. I really do have to calm down before I post something. I'm quite sure very few people will take this kind of rumor seriously. Trashing a fellow breeder almost never comes across looking good to a puppy buyer.

So thanks for the kind words of support. You guys are the best!

Lynn
25th June 2007, 01:54 AM
I've never understood this but I guess spreading lies to hurt someone makes the (liar) person feel better about themselves....very very sad. The liar must have so little self love that hurting others seems to inflate his/her own ego. I am soooooooooo sorry someone is spreading lies about you. I'll bet jealousy plays a big role.

I have a neighbor that is always in a feud with one of his neighbors...he goes around spreading lies and it seems to feed his sad pathetic soul. I used to get angry but now I just feel pity. What a pathetic waste of life to focus on hurting others.

Not to worry, the poison the liar spews out will end up coming back at his/her in the end.....they'll get their due one day.

Caraline
25th June 2007, 03:20 AM
That is disgraceful, wicked & spiteful! I too wish I could say I am surprised, but sadly I am not. This kind of behaviour is what I came to know and expect from my very short burst of showing & breeding, and was the prime reason that I decided I didn't want a bar of either.

I am so sorry to hear that you & yours have come under such a sickening attack Bruce. :hug:

Karen S.
25th June 2007, 03:59 AM
You have to stop and think why she said this. If she points the finger at you then maybe no one will notice she might have Cavaliers with SM.
Keep up the good work we need much more testing and research on SM.

Jen
25th June 2007, 04:58 AM
Wow. This is about as ridiculous and ignorant as they come! You're trying to do the right thing! I too am not surprised, and I agree that pointing the finger elsewhere takes says something about her/his particular lines...makes you wonder.

goldcountryrose
25th June 2007, 06:45 AM
Bruce, you need to call that breeder and deal with them quickly and
adamently. Does Freakin Jerry Lewis have Muscular Dystrophy?????? NO
He helps raise funds to put an end to it. You need to let this person know exactly that you are not going to allow them to continue to slander or liable you and that you will take legal action if they don't cease and desist immediately from passing along this misinformation.

It is really likely that someone gave that breeder that info. You need to find the original source and stop it!!!

I know that you have calmed down, and certaily know that what you did was a good thing and you don't regret it.

The only way to deal with this is to confront it head-on.

Karlin
25th June 2007, 05:55 PM
I think it is important to note that saying a breeder has produced dogs with CM/SM is not a shocking thing. It is the way in which such a comment was intended, that is. And the implication that this is information that would be kept secret by a committed breeder.

It is nearly certain that every breeder produces cavaliers with CM -- the malformation that can cause SM at any time, and for reasons not well understood, and which can cause many of SM's symtpoms on its own (CM is recognised as a separate and equal illness to SM in humans). Indeed it is so hard for researchers to find dogs they agree are totally clear for CM -- the Chiari-like malformation -- that they no longer consider this a meaningful classification when grading MRIs for cavaliers. In other words -- nearly every cavalier is born with a skull that is too small for its brain. Some of these dogs will MRI with syrinxes (SM) as well -- the lowest percentage seen in any random research sample so far is about 40% and on up to 70%. That means that conservatively, probably about half, perhaps slightly less, perhaps quite bit more, of any random group of cavaliers likely has SM. That means 40-70% of the cavaliers owned by people here on CavalierTalk. It's just that it is more likely to be asymptomatic , especially in younger dogs -- but the reality is that it is still there.

That means every breeder has around a 50/50 chance that every puppy bred will go on to develop SM. Fortunately, most dogs with SM at this time do not become symptomatic, but neurologists are seeing far more cases referred to them of early onset, more severe SM with each passing year.

Unless all these dogs are MRId or become clearly symptomatic, it is impossible to know if any breeder's dogs have SM. But the likelihood is that some of them do, or will go on to develop it.

So far, it has been impossible for researchers to find any totally clear lines. This is why research of the type Bruce and so many here helped to fund is very important -- it is helping to indicate some 'more clear' lines, revealing some A grade breeding dogs which are extremely important, and will form the basis of the genome study that hopefully will result in a genetic test for SM in coming years.

The statement that a line produces or has produced SM should not have the stigma attached to it that it currently does because so far, there are NO lines known that DON'T have it. What is needed is more work to ensure that symptomatic cavaliers become rarer and rarer. Breeders already take this attitude towards MVD -- no reputable breeder would insist his or her lines are clear of MVD genes but breeders will breed towards the healthiest hearts possible and the latest onset possible, or no onset. That is what breeders will eventually all want to do with SM as well. Sadly the researchers do not feel SM can ever be eradicated from the breed now -- but it likely can be minimised, just as MVD can be minimised.

To understand what this means -- no clear lines -- consider this. My Leo and Jaspar are from the same, well-known Irish line -- Ronnoc. Their breeder recently passed away, and the dogs from this line have, rather worryingly for the breed, been dispersed to who knows where. :(. Some initial probability studies run by an expert computer scientist/statistician in the US on computers indicate Ronnoc is probably one of a tiny handful of more-clear lines -- but only in some distinct subsets. Leo and Jaspar are half brothers, sharing the same father. Jaspar MRI'd a rare clear/clear when a year old (too young for the grading scheme to be considered an A however -- he would need to be re-MRI'd). Leo has moderate grade, symptomatic SM for which he is medicated. Yet the probability work indictates Jaspar's line is the most-clear line within Ronnoc. His half brother is affected. That is how narrow the differences can be, and how important individual MRIs are to probability studies and to finding the genes responsible.

I think all of the above are important distinctions to make. Especially as most breeders that I now of who have MRI'd have been taken aback at the results and find they now need to actively work to breed away from a condition they never thought their dogs had. Only MRIs tell the truth. Breeders need lower cost MRI programs and more support within clubs to MRI -- not the fear of being branded as 'someone who breeds dogs with SM'.

So rather than speak of libellous statements or slander -- which only ensures this subject remains secretive and a source of shame -- let's instead worry about a mindset amongst some breeders where SM is still so taboo that it is an insult to be hurled at others and a way to tarnish a good reputation. Breeders need to move forward and consider how to minimise this affliction, not accuse others of having it. I'd be interested to know if the breeder who made this claim has MRI'd. And if so, what their own results were. icon_nwunsure Until dogs are MRI'd there's no way to know if a breeder's lines have SM, or not.

*Pauline*
25th June 2007, 06:22 PM
Bruce, you need to call that breeder and deal with them quickly and
adamently.

I agree with this. Sorry Bruce, rumours are forgotten quicker than you think too but please call that breeder.

Cathy Moon
25th June 2007, 06:45 PM
I think all of the above are important distinctions to make. Especially as most breeders that I now of who have MRI'd have been taken aback at the results and find they now need to actively work to breed away from a condition they never thought their dogs had. Only MRIs tell the truth. Breeders need lower cost MRI programs and more support within clubs to MRI -- not the fear of being branded as 'someone who breeds dogs with SM'.

So rather than speak of libellous statements or slander -- which only ensures this subject remains secretive and a source of shame -- let's instead worry about a mindset amongst some breeders where SM is still so taboo that it is an insult to be hurled at others and a way to tarnish a good reputation. Breeders need to move forward and consider how to minimise this affliction, not accuse others of having it. I'd be interested to know if the breeder who made this claim has MRI'd. And if so, what their own results were. icon_nwunsure Until dogs are MRI'd there's no way to know if a breeder's lines have SM, or not.
In the heat of the moment, I had a knee jerk reaction to the intent of that person to hurt/attack a fellow breeder. I forgot how pervasive SM truly is, and how we're all in this together to do what we can to conquer SM in the breed. SM should not be used to harm a breeder; instead our focus needs to be supporting those who are showing the courage and conviction to face this problem head on.

Cathryn
25th June 2007, 06:51 PM
As many of you know I recently MRI'd 2 full sisters born a year apart as I needed to know for my own sake what was going on within my own line, initial results were alarming for me to say the least, I am going to be having them graded in the very near future. The upshot of all of this is that I have some very careful thinking to do about my future breedings. As Karlin has said SM can hopefully be reduced with selective breeding over the coming years as more information and clear dogs come up, but right now it is still too early. If we throw out everything SM related, then everything MVD related we would have nothing left to breed with at all. Some people are already "disposing" of potetially useful bloodlines through rumour alone, we need to be broader minded than that.
Sadly the world of showing can at times be trying but we are from all walks of life and have our own opinions on all things to which we are entitled, within reason.

Karlin, it was a sad day indeed when the Ronnoc Kennel was dispersed a very great loss to the Cavalier world indeed!

OK off my soapbox now!!

Bet
25th June 2007, 08:10 PM
Bruce ,

I some times wonder what kind of folk are in the Cavalier World ,a good many are nice ,but unfortunately there are some who leave a lot to be desired !!!!

Ive just been put through the mill myself recently ,its been insinuated that I was a Animal Rights Activist ,by some here in the UK .

Id to take Legal Advice about it

I really think that those types of Cavalier Folk have something missing in their lives and are on Ego Trips just for themselves in the Show Scene ,they dont care about their Cavaliers

Hope you can put all this behind you ,and just think of what could be the out-come of the effort youve put into getting the Money for this SM Research

Bet

Karlin
25th June 2007, 10:11 PM
Good points Cathryn and Bet. And worth adding again that just because a cavalier has SM does not mean it must be removed from a breeding programme -- unless it is symptomatic. People keep forgetting this. :) The dog may receive a lower grade, but can still be bred to an A dog. Even an A dog can have a small syrinx (whch *I* keep forgetting! :lol:). It is important for breeders to retain a wide range of good genes and a good heart for example may make a D dog an important dog to retain in a breeding programme. So far, results of breedings to A dogs have been very good and no known AxA crossing has yet produced puppies with SM. Dutch breeders in particular are doing some very controlled breedings, and also some in the UK and the US.

Grading table:

GRADE, AGE (Years), SYRINGOMYELIA, BREED TO

A: Over 2.5; Absent or less than 2mm central canal dilatation in the C2-C4 vertebrae region only; A, C, D

C: Under 2.5; Absent; A and re-scan after age 2.5

D: Over 2.5; Present but Asymptomatic; A

E: Under 2.5; Present but Asymptomatic; Do not breed

F: Any; Present and Symptomatic; Do not breed

Caraline
26th June 2007, 01:01 AM
The part I find disgraceful about the person's comments is that seemily it was said to cause harm. I know USA laws are different to Australian law, but here if someone makes a comment with the intent to cause harm, even if the statement is true, the person making the statement can be sued for malicious slander. The only exception to this is if the statement was made in the interest of public safety.

OhMarley
26th June 2007, 10:36 AM
[QUOTE=Bruce H;204778]That's about as stupid as saying because we test hearts every year, that all our dogs must have MVD. QUOTE]

EXACTLY!!!! I think some ppl who themselves don't put any effort into helping sort out problems like SM and MVD need to take cheap shots at people that DO try (like yourself) in order to make themselves feel better...or justify that they themselves arn't doing anything.
Hold your head up high and be proud of what you are doing as when it all boils down to it you guys truly do love and care about this breed! Good work I say keep on doing what your doing as you ARE making a difference!!!!