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View Full Version : questions about costs of being breeder



sunshinekisses
9th July 2007, 10:13 PM
I have been visiting a few breeders in my state in search of my perfect pup. It has been fun visiting a couple litters and talking to the breeders. I have been curious how some breeders/fanciers pay for the costs of showing their dogs and I am curious if this may relate to their choosing to breed an extra litter or two during the year. Also, I have noticed (mostly online) that some kennels have a couple litters ready at the same time. Because I do not show my dogs or actively participate in my dog clubs I do not know how the breeder side of dogs work. Can someone explain to me why someone would breed more than one litter per year?

WoodHaven
9th July 2007, 10:38 PM
1st of all-- you can't control mother nature-- the girls tend to follow a "dormitory effect" and come into season about the same time.

2nd-- we bred two girls at about the same time because-- it was our older girls last litter- she was 6 1/2. We really wanted to do a MRI grade A to A breeding and this 3 year old bitch had missed previously (so we took her to a specialist to do a surgical AI).

One ~~~~~ might breed two litters "back to back" if the first litter was small and the dam bounced back to great health very quickly. Some repro vets believe it is much easier for a younger bitch to have pups than an older bitch-- the older you have an intact bitch, the more likely she is to get pyometria. Unfortunately-- commercial breeders breed to produce a crop.

No-- we don't offset showing costs by producing litters. It isn't worth the cost to my girls. I've paid for breedings that resulted in no pups, if you have only one or two pups-- you lose money if you had to pay a stud fee or heavens forbid an emergency c-section. Showing your dog lets you get professional opinions on your dogs. Sandy

Cathryn
9th July 2007, 10:54 PM
I echo all that Sandy has said above.

To add one of my own more recent experiences, I had a bitch whom I mated to a very lovely stud dog who matched up well to her both on paper and in type. All went well and she conceived, we got to 54 days and she aborted 3 beautiful, but very sadly dead little girls. Sheer bad luck we thought, we had never had this happen before and she had been rough housing with some of the others that day. On her next heat she returned to the same stud dog and again became pregnant, I was delighted!! At 55 days she aborted 3 beautiful boys and 2 gorgeous girls!! We now believe her progesterone levels (Vital for maintaining pregnancy) dropped off to soon. I added up how much I had spent on stud fee's, cost of travelling to the stud dog, cost of health checks for my girl etc, etc and it was mind boggling :yikes:

The vast majority of breeders are in this for the love of the breed, we scrimp and save to afford whatever costs occur, many of us are not well off, we occassionally get a litter where a bit of money is made and is put on one side to pay for the next stud fee, health check etc.

I can say, hand on my heart that I only ever breed a litter for myself first and certainly NEVER to fill a waiting list and certainly NOT to cover the costs of showing!!

sunshinekisses
9th July 2007, 11:03 PM
okay, so I found someone I am at ease talking to. Them seem to be very geniune, they show their dogs and are very active in the breed. They have one litter on the ground and just sold a litter, they now also have a female that is due soon. The last female they claim was an accidental breeding. They have a pet female pup available now on limited akc papers and two males show potential. They also know of another person with a litter that I can possibly co-own show potential female. They will be willing to help show the pup since I am new to this. And honestly I really want help. They are close to me and have already said they will be available any time.

I am just wondering why they have so many pups available right now. Pup pricing is not cheap and I guess they could make money off the pups. I am a very non-confrontational person and didn't ask them but I wonder if this is okay for a good breeder.

sunshinekisses
9th July 2007, 11:06 PM
sorry to hear that Cathryn, terrible loss.

WoodHaven
9th July 2007, 11:08 PM
The pain of breeding.
We too have a girl give birth to 6 pups at day 55. Ran her to an emergency vet-- over 100 dollars to walk in the door. The doctor told me that there was no chance of survival for the pups-- (not true). We took her home and she delivered the pups, but too slowly and they were without oxygen too long. The smallest pup was over 5 ounces-- they needed a c-section and the emergency vets aren't up on canine reproduction. Due to this huge loss-- my husband didn't know if I'd ever get over their deaths.

We bred her again and I had 4 progesterone tests done during the last two weeks-- she didn't drop until she could safely deliver.

I figure the financial loss of the first litter was a couple of thousand dollars. The emotional loss was FAR worse.

Cathryn
9th July 2007, 11:11 PM
Hi!

When you have bitches kept together they often come into heat together, half my girls come in almost one day after another and then three months later the rest come in, again almost a day after each other!!

A lot of breeders, and I admit I have done this also, will mate 2 bitches at a time, this has the benefit that should anything happen to one of the bitches, I.E Die on the operating table during a C-Section, or simply a first time Mum whose maternal instince doesn't kick in and she rejects her puppies you potentially have a back up/ substitute Mum.
There is also the fact that it is easier to do all your breeding at once and get it out of the way so you can concentrate on the other dogs (puppies really are the most awful time wasters!)

WoodHaven
9th July 2007, 11:12 PM
There are byb who breed one litter a year and there are reputable breeders who breed 10 litters per year. Do they health test by board certified cardiologist and opthalmalogist? Heart and eyes are MUST-- hips are usually STRONGLY recommended and MRI is even better.

Cathryn
9th July 2007, 11:15 PM
sorry to hear that Cathryn, terrible loss.

Thank You, I have now retired this lady, she did have one daughter the first time I bred from her and ironically she too aborted 7 beautiful puppies at 56 days a few months ago. I personnally feel Mum has been through enough (not to mention my nerves can't take it again with her!) I will try again with the daughter but will check progesterone levels with her next time!!

Cathryn
9th July 2007, 11:20 PM
Hi!

When you have bitches kept together they often come into heat together, half my girls come in almost one day after another and then three months later the rest come in, again almost a day after each other!!

A lot of breeders, and I admit I have done this also, will mate 2 bitches at a time, this has the benefit that should anything happen to one of the bitches, I.E Die on the operating table during a C-Section, or simply a first time Mum whose maternal instince doesn't kick in and she rejects her puppies you potentially have a back up/ substitute Mum.
There is also the fact that it is easier to do all your breeding at once and get it out of the way so you can concentrate on the other dogs (puppies really are the most awful time wasters!)


Eeek!! Just read this back and realise how awfully cold it must sound, this has NOT happened to me but I do know of breeders that it has happened too, I just "Knock Wood" and :xfngr: that it NEVER happens to me!! Guess I was just trying to get a heart felt thought across is all!

WoodHaven
9th July 2007, 11:34 PM
Eeek!! Just read this back and realise how awfully cold it must sound, this has NOT happened to me but I do know of breeders that it has happened too, I just "Knock Wood" and :xfngr: that it NEVER happens to me!! Guess I was just trying to get a heart felt thought across is all!

We knew what you meant- smile

There is also smaller issues too, like: mastitis, uterine infections (or any infection)- lack of milk, too many pups for one mom to handle- that having another mom ready to help can save lives.

Bruce H
10th July 2007, 01:14 AM
Like others have said, these darn girls have a habit of coordinating their seasons and start to come in together. We will many times breed more than one girl at a time, partly because breeding them doesn't gaurantee a pregnancy. I also think it's easier in many ways to have the litters together and have the moms help each other out. Good example are the two we had in my journal "5 months in the Life of a Breeder" where we took a puppy from the mom who was having a little trouble producing enough milk and gave it to another mom who had lots of milk. While I wouldn't want to go through welping 2 dogs at the same time, it was easier in many ways raising the 2 litters together.

We may average 3 to 4 litters a year, so it would not be unusual for us to have 1 litter on the ground and 1 coming up. And since the Cavalier world is quite small, we usually know which breeders have puppies available and will send people to breeders we know are good breeders when we have nothing available. Like I have said in the past, even if we have no health issues and all the breedings "take", we won't even come close to making money or even breaking even. We breed and show because we just plain love doing it. And, like most showers/breeders, every time we breed we are hoping for that one in a million puppy that takes Best in Show at Westminster, the "Perfect Storm" of puppies.

So I guess if you have done your homework and are comfortable with the breeder, I wouldn't be concerned seeing a few litters in a year.

sunshinekisses
10th July 2007, 02:31 AM
Thanks for the info...that was just my one concern. Now that I know it is fairly common I feel much better. So...on to my next question about co ownership...I guess that is a whole other thread! ;)