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BostonGirl
11th July 2007, 05:24 PM
Bella is starting to show alot of signs of freckling. She didn't have any when we got her and now some are starting to pop up on her face and front legs. They are still small and light colored but I know that they will just get bigger and darker as she grows. I know that this is common and I have seen it on most blenheims before but I have to say I'm not a huge fan of it :rolleyes: I dont mean to offend anyone that does like it but I'm wondering if there is anything I can do to get rid of it. My breeder said she has bleached her dogs before with facial bleach from the drug store but I tried it and it didnt work. Are their any other products out there that might work? Can a groomer take care of it? I know its sooo not a big deal in the grand scheme of things and I love her to pieces but I'm thinking of showing her in the future and this may become an issue. Thanks for any suggestions!!

Barbara Nixon
11th July 2007, 05:47 PM
I would never risk my dog's wellbeing by using bleach, especially on a face. My vet once suggested peroxide for removing wee stains just from one dog's leg feathers, but I thought it too risky.

None of us, or our dogs, are perfect (even the supreme champion at Crufts is unlikely to be a perfect match to the breed standard), so we have to love them as they are. The chestnut markings do increase as a puppy gets older and cannot be removed. Joly, who has a lot of white, developed spots, called ticking, on his back.

WoodHaven
11th July 2007, 06:00 PM
Heavens above-- no you can't safely remove the color of your dogs coat. No pup is born with ticking-- as they get older the gene shows itself. I have a clean dam who was bred to a very cleanly marked sire and they had two highly freckled offspring.

sallymum
11th July 2007, 07:12 PM
Sorry if im going to offend u here but why on earth did u get a blenham cav, everyone i have seen has this marking it is part of them and why would u use bleach to try and get rid of it. Would u use it on a child because they had some mark on their face. Sorry but this has really left me fuming.

nlg679
11th July 2007, 07:29 PM
?....Never, ever thought of doing such a thing.:(

Justine
11th July 2007, 07:41 PM
Very strange,i know when i had my horses we would use chalk to enhance there white peices but never bleach.What is the point of showing a dog and maybe winning if you have cheated,when you have clearly changed its looks.Bleach would burn anyway.

Cathryn
11th July 2007, 07:52 PM
Hello!

This is not an easy one to give an answer to without causing offence really! Speaking as a breeder, Yes I prefer a "clean" face however as Breed Lover I can accept freckles and think they are quite sweet in their own way, MANY, MANY years ago when my sister "persuaded" our parents to allow her to have a Cavalier (There is another story here, but will tell it another time!) one of the things on her list was "LOTS of freckles" :lol: Along came Charlie and he indeed had LOTS of freckles!
Most breeders I know of like a clean face on a potential show dog, I know I do, however you can have a few light freckles and they will NOT detract from the overall softness of the dogs head and expression, it's all a matter of personnal taste at the end of the day.
Yes you can bleach them out but this should only be done with extreme care and in all honesty using hydrogen peroxide around a dogs face is not really a good idea!


At the end of the day she is your lovely girl and markings are only markings they do not affect her health or her temperament and that is what should matter most to you really rather than a few little beauty marks!!

BostonGirl
11th July 2007, 09:27 PM
I knew to expect this reaction from this group so I'm not surprised but honestly you act like I was trying to figure out a way to cut off my dog's right ear or something - so dramatic. I love my dog more than anything in the whole world - ask anyone who has ever met me. I was just trying to ask a simple question that shouldnt have offended anyone. I use bleach on my own face all the time as I'm sure most people have and it has never hurt or caused any damage so please stop trying to make me feel like a terrible person.

WoodHaven
11th July 2007, 09:40 PM
Bleaching or coloration of the cavaliers coat is against all the showing rules, so I wouldn't ever consider doing it on a pet.

You knew you were asking an inflammatory question-- we love our dogs, as they are. What happens when your dog ages and she gets warts, gray hair and she isn't cute anymore.

Cathryn
11th July 2007, 09:44 PM
Hello!

Personnally speaking I am NOT trying to make you feel like a "Terrible Person", far from it! You voiced your opinion and others have voiced theirs, and we are all entitled to our own opinions be they right or wrong!

You say you are considering showing her in the future? In my experince the "perfect" dog has yet to be bred and the judges job is to judge the dog based on his/her own ideal of the breed standard on the day. I have had dogs with a couple of freckles that have done really well in the ring over the years and when I say really well I mean Crufts Qualified for LIFE!! Basically if the overall quality of the dog is good then a few freckles will NOT hold them back in the ring!! Just this humble person's personnal opinion is all!!

merlinsmum
11th July 2007, 09:50 PM
I knew to expect this reaction from this group so I'm not surprised but honestly you act like I was trying to figure out a way to cut off my dog's right ear or something - so dramatic. I love my dog more than anything in the whole world - ask anyone who has ever met me. I was just trying to ask a simple question that shouldnt have offended anyone. I use bleach on my own face all the time as I'm sure most people have and it has never hurt or caused any damage so please stop trying to make me feel like a terrible person.
You asked a question that many have strong opinions on - especially those who show. It is considered very bad to aesthetically change your dogs hair to meet a breed standard and I assume it is felt the same over all breeds.

No one is thinking that you want to cut your dogs ear off type of thing just seems a dramatic thing to want to try and change your dogs natural appearance.

My Oakley has a very small white patch that although I have all the peroxide etc to dye it (because of my own hair) I wouldn't dream of changing it, despite it being a minor fault that he may get knocked for in the showring -overall he is a fine specimen of the breed.

sallymum
11th July 2007, 09:56 PM
I knew to expect this reaction from this group so I'm not surprised but honestly you act like I was trying to figure out a way to cut off my dog's right ear or something - so dramatic. I love my dog more than anything in the whole world - ask anyone who has ever met me. I was just trying to ask a simple question that shouldnt have offended anyone. I use bleach on my own face all the time as I'm sure most people have and it has never hurt or caused any damage so please stop trying to make me feel like a terrible person.

No one is trying to make u feel like a terrible person. If u ask for peoples opinion im sorry that is what u r going to get, and im sorry but as u have read not every answer will be to ur liken.

Shay
11th July 2007, 10:03 PM
Nope, not everyone uses bleach on their face....sorry, I never have. That is a huge blanket statement.

I would have been so afraid that the bleach would have burned your dogs skin, or the fumes her nostrils, or she could have licked some off of her face. I guess I'm of the mindset that we love all things the way God made them, our children and our dogs.

Justine
11th July 2007, 10:29 PM
Nobody is getting at you,please dont think that.Its just a heated discussion,it good to talk about things,even if the subject might offend people.Me personally never knew people would bleach there dogs just so they might win a compation and you have opened my eyes and ears to that.This is what the site is for ,every one is allowed there own say ,wether we like it or not.Its good people ask and question things.Please i understand what you were asking,but you have to be prepared for some heated answers.

Karlin
12th July 2007, 12:30 AM
If you ask a question in a public forum you will always get a range of replies. If you are concerned about a public response to such a question in future, you could always PM one of the breeders who would be most knowledgable on this type of subject though as you can see, they don't seem to agree with doing this and point out the potential hazards of putting any type of bleach on the skin or near the face of a dog, but I wouldn't consider their replies -- which you after all solicited -- an attack, just a statement of opinion. I've never heard of anyone altering their cavalier's colouring for cosmetic reasons myself. BTW please remember you had many pages of comments and suggestions when Bella had a bad limp and you were really worried and solicited advice. Wasn't that reflective of 'this group' too? :cool:

Was the dog definitely a show quality dog when purchased (and therefore already several months old for this to have been assessed?)? Most breeders would not sell a show quality dog to a novice without dual ownership or other restrictions, and would also provide mentoring (and hence could directly and reliably advise on your question :thmbsup:). If she was sold as a show dog, you might want to contact the local breed club and see if it is possible to talk with a good breeder about an assessment as she should be old enough to be assessed and that will give you an idea wheher freckles would matter as a show issue. There regularly are some dubious breeders selling dogs as show quality puppies yet selling them when they are way too young to even have been assessable, and vastly overcharging people new to showing who wouldn't know this. If the breeder is CKCSC or AKC and selling dogs at say 8 weeks old on this basis and the dog was under the age to have been reliably listed as show potential -- and the puppy is subsequently assessed as pet quality -- I'd consider filing a formal complaint with the breed club and I'd be having a serious talk with the breeder as well.

I don't understand how a breeder who is showing could be bleaching a dog, Cathryn? I thought it totally illegal to in any way alter a cavalier for the show ring -- either bleaching, colouring in noses, trimming, etc. icon_nwunsure

Elude
12th July 2007, 06:20 AM
I'm new to the show ring but I just thought i'd weigh in on this because my girl has a similar cosmetic issue. It is definitely illegal to alter a cavalier for the show ring. That includes trimming/cutting/and bleaching freckles :huh:

If you are planning to show your girl don't discount her over freckles. My girl Zoey was sold to me as a pet because she didn't have a full blaze that they like to see in a tri. Other breeders later commented to Zoey's breeder after seeing how she grew and developed that they thought she'd do well regardless of the blaze. We've just started showing in junior puppy and she is doing well for her age. She hasn't won any points, but she has won a bunch of firsts and seconds in her classes, and we've heard some really positive comments from judges. Enough for me to realize that markings are really just the icing on the cake so to speak. If your girl has the rest of the package for the show ring, she will likely do well freckles or not. Personally I think freckles and other mismarkings add character. I love that my girl is a little bit unique.

Barbara Nixon
12th July 2007, 10:51 AM
It is definitely illegal to alter a cavalier for the show ring. That includes trimming/cutting/and bleaching freckles :huh:



Indeed. I was reading , in the Hub International catalogue, of a highly recommended product (not bleach) for cleaning up eye stains, and there was a warning that even that was not allowed to be used on a show dog.

Cathryn
12th July 2007, 11:01 AM
I don't understand how a breeder who is showing could be bleaching a dog, Cathryn? I thought it totally illegal to in any way alter a cavalier for the show ring -- either bleaching, colouring in noses, trimming, etc. icon_nwunsure


Ok, have located a schedule now (been a while since I entered a show)

REGULATIONS FOR THE PREPERATION OF DOGS FOR EXHIBITION F(B)

2(a)No substance which alters the natural colour, texture or body of the coat may be present in the dogs coat for any purpose at any time during the show. No substance which alters the natural colour of any external part of the dog may be present on the dog for any purpose at any time during the show.

2 (b) Any other substance (other than water) which may be used in the preperation of a dog for exhibition must not be allowed to remain in the coat or on any other part of the dog at the time of exhibition.

I have heard of people using bleach to fade freckles on their dogs, personnally I have NEVER done so and indeed nor would I. The best way to avoid using bleach to remove stains etc is to not let the coat get stained in the first place. However this is sometimes not possible so people do use bleach (Hydrogen Peroxide) to remove the stains. We also tidy up foot feathering for obvious reasons (mud tracked across carpets!).

Whenever a Kennel Club Licenced Show is held there are often field officers who visit the show, they are allowed to take coat samples of any dog they consider's coat has been altered and send them off for analysis.

Visit any show and you might find dogs who have very obviously been heavily trimmed, these dogs are often penalised by the judges in any case as they will not place such dogs.

Nancy
12th July 2007, 05:04 PM
Those are UK club rules? So you can't use a grooming product other than water? Wow, there would be quite a difference in show coats here if that were the case. I just bought 2 products for a pretty penny, plush puppy spray on, for after shampoo, and such products are commonly used in the US.

Bruce H
12th July 2007, 06:36 PM
In regard to freckles (ticking), here is what AKC's breed standard says:

<Faults - Heavy ticking on Blenheims or Tricolors, white marks on Rubies or Black and Tans.>

I thought CKCSC had similar language, but didn't see it. At any rate, some ticking is allowed and is quite often seen on dogs in the ring that do well. As has been said, every dog has faults; what it all comes down to is what each judge considers important.

As far as bleaching for the ring, I always understood that was not allowed, but couldn't find it written anywhere. But people still do it, just like they trim. Just bugs me when I see judges put up obviously trimmed dogs. Something my wife Kris (she used to be a beautician) told me long ago about bleaching to whiten fur: bleaching does something to the hair that makes the hair discolor easier the next time. She always thought people who bleached their dogs were making a big mistake.

Bruce H
12th July 2007, 06:39 PM
Visit any show and you might find dogs who have very obviously been heavily trimmed, these dogs are often penalised by the judges in any case as they will not place such dogs.

I wish it were that way here. You should see some of the trimmed dogs the judges put up :mad: Really bugs me when I see it.

Cathryn
12th July 2007, 06:42 PM
Hi!

Yes Bruce and Kris are right, bleaching leaves the follicles open so if you don't condition the coat again VERY, VERY heavily it will be more prone to staining again and undoing all your work!!

BostonGirl
12th July 2007, 11:14 PM
Thank you for the calm and respectful responses about showing rules :) When Bella was sold to me from my breeder she was sold as a show quality pup. I didn't know if I wanted to get into showing at the time - I still dont - but I may consider it with time. She will absolutely become my mentor if I decide to do this but it's not something I'm that serious about yet. My breeder is very involved with shows and when I called her to just chat it up about Bella I mentioned that she had begun to show some freckling and she then got to talking about how she has one girl who had a very noticeable freckle on her face that she bleached for a show one time. She said she regularly bleaches the feet of her dogs for shows because the tend to get yellowish over time. I'm surprised that she would take part in this activity if it was illegal. She is an excellent breeder - has been the mentor to many people here in New England and is touted in the Northeast as one of the leading Cavalier breeders. I'm surprised that she would even think of doing something against the rules - would this be something widely know if you showed? Is there a way for a judge to even know that you did that? Maybe people are doing it anyway knowing its hard to be caught... I have no idea. This is all new to me. I guess you learn something new every day!

on a side note - I hope everyone knows I'm talking about facial bleach for humans here - not clorox bleach.

Nancy
13th July 2007, 02:06 AM
I find it really unusual that a breeder would sell a show potential female to someone who may not show her on an unrestricted registration. It's almost unheard of.

BostonGirl
13th July 2007, 02:30 AM
This breeder does not sell to other big show people - she keeps the best show potential pups for herself and sells the rest as pets. I asked her this same question - why would you give me a show potential pup? She said that she breeds for herself first and the remaining pups go to people who she thinks will make the best homes. She would prefer to sell a show pup as a pet rather than to a big show home where the dog won't get the same attention as a pet. I found this to be extremely rare and very respectful which is one of the reasons we went with her. Don't get me wrong - she has sold pups to people who do show in the past - only the people she has mentored through showing and a breeding program though.

WoodHaven
13th July 2007, 02:33 AM
When I got my first show "potential", she was sold on a restricted pedigree. Once she turned 3 and was cleared on all health tests-- she looked her over and lifted the restriction. This is much more protective.

BostonGirl
13th July 2007, 03:29 AM
What is a restricted pedigree?