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View Full Version : is this cruelty or ignorance



sallymum
14th July 2007, 09:09 PM
I got a 2 and a half tri girl out of a puppy farm situation Wednesday, made phone calls on behalf of a vet i know who had heard about this girl.
To cut a very long story short this little girl is now in the care of this vet. while she was under getting spayed apart from a very very bad skin condition he found a hernia, tumor on her mamory(sp) gland, bad ears and bad eyes. Thankfully this lovely vet has fallen in love with her so is taken care of every thing that needs to be done. I have a photo of her on my phone which shows her skin condition, i dont know how to post it, if anyone can do it for me i will send u the pic or even just text it to u to see the state of her.
Her owner phoned me awhile ago to ask me how she is. When i told her nicely all the things wrong with her, her reply i knew about the skin i was treating her with Ivomac when i asked what is it.Did a vet give it her she said no we are farmers we have it. to cut short are conversation she said all her dogs are treated well. When i asked about vacs she said we live on a farm no dogs around they dont need it.
The thing is i dont know if this lady is just ignorant to the welfare of her animals or she is sorry i cant write what i want to say about her.

sorry but i had to get this off my chest i have been sitting here for the last hour fuming.

Oh just want to add This cav wasnt taking out for Cavalier Rescue but Karlin as always did say that if i needed her for this cav she would be there. thankfully these vet mother is giving this little girl a home.

Justine
14th July 2007, 09:15 PM
I dont know anymore,people excuses never cease to amaze me.I was watching animals cops and a lady was putting car oil on a case of mange,it was like an old wifes tale.Teh vet said they honestly think thet would cure it but of course it doesnt.

AT
14th July 2007, 09:23 PM
Puppyfarmers are strange some can't seem to see whats wrong with their practices & others simply don't care.

The worst case we ever had the dogs had tapeworm , earmites , were covered in goo , matts & lice ( I thought it was sawdust until it moved) one was 11lb & should have been over 20.

The person we got them from had the cheek/stupidity to say make sure you get them a good home !( & they'd been sitting on his kids knee in their car in that state)
makes you wonder what would their definition of a bad home be ?

Justine
14th July 2007, 09:28 PM
Yes that right that amazes me as well ,you can hear them saying,yes make sure you give my dog a good home.God their awful ignorant people.

Karlin
14th July 2007, 09:31 PM
The state of that one cavalier would result in a prosecution for cruelty under Irish law. I have the pic from Mary and she is in an appalling state. I will post it from my phone. If she is breeding dogs and that was an example, I would report that woman to the ISPCA. :mad:

Karlin
14th July 2007, 09:35 PM
Here she is, covered in sores and scabs:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1394/810862939_872abec040.jpg

Harry & Heidi's mom
14th July 2007, 09:39 PM
MY GOD thats shocking,
poor dog so glad she's out!!!!!

WoodHaven
14th July 2007, 09:39 PM
IMO-- cruelty implies intent to harm. I agree that this dogs case sounds bad. I heard a term recently "farm dog mentality", meaning dogs are something that are rather expendable. Example:

Our vet clinic got a dog in that was in a house fire-- burns over 70% of it's body. This bitches nails were melted and part of her ears were burnt off. Her eyes had some heat damage -- she was a mess. Two months of very careful treatment- antibiotics, they called hospitals and had a burn unit nurse come in to show them how to get necropsied tissue off. Baths, bandages etc... against all odds she lives. My daughter took this lab/pit mix in her home and continued antibiotics, skin ointments and an assessment. She had her for 5 weeks-- she learned manners, was a decent house dog and the shelter that took her case, homed her to people who own a large farm. My daughter warned the new owners she was terrible off leash and would chase cars. Within 5 weeks this dog was run over and broke her back. They put her to sleep and have another shelter dog running loose. They didn't learn a damn thing.
To me, this is the same idea--If she couldn't live within the parameters of the "farm life" then she was doomed to suffer. At least you have her now and her life should be much better soon.
Sorry this is so long-- I sit her crying because I saw the hell both dogs went through.

Cathryn
14th July 2007, 09:40 PM
OMG!! :yikes: How can any-one possibly allow a dog to get into such a state?? Personnally I would report the person responsible, as for the not needing vaccinations, well if they were on a remote farm and around other farm animals then they most certainly DID need them, I cannot think of a single reason as to why a puppy/dog should not be vaccinated! :swear:

Cathy T
14th July 2007, 09:57 PM
What a sad story Sandy!!

That picture is absolutely appalling!! What is wrong with people?!

Justine
14th July 2007, 10:01 PM
GOD is that a dog,i thought it was a old rug.Why do that,the dog is making a living for those people.I cant understand it.Never have ,Never will.

sallymum
14th July 2007, 10:03 PM
When i was talking to the former owner i really dont think she nows she is doing wrong. She says she is a dog lover and everyone should have a dog. Is this why she bought 7 girls and one male cav in November for her son to breed them. She now needs her shed back, that is why she sold all the others, though she is still breeding collies.
She says she feeds her dogs twice a day on the dear food when i asked what she said Pedigree chum. she also plays with them at feeding time, never needed a walk they all play together so get plenty of exercise.

Karlin
14th July 2007, 10:05 PM
Well the vet could definitely report her for having a dog in that condition. It's likely the collies will be in a similar state, as that is most likely mange and is highly transmissible.

merlinsmum
14th July 2007, 10:11 PM
Sally,

Please report this woman! She obviously is deranged to think she is providing quality of care to these dogs. The new laws that have come in should help remove dogs from these people who in my opinion should be sectioned as they are obviously lacking in any stable mental health.

Sorry for ranting but this one has really hit a nerve...

Justine
14th July 2007, 10:22 PM
I must admit until i had joined this site ,i didnt know what pupy farms were.I had never heard of them.But i do know now,i actually would complain to someone now.I was reading the news paper on hols and they did close a farm down,and they also took someone to court for cruelty to a horse.I think the more people complain the more they will do about it.

Cathryn
14th July 2007, 10:36 PM
When i was talking to the former owner i really dont think she nows she is doing wrong. She says she is a dog lover and everyone should have a dog. Is this why she bought 7 girls and one male cav in November for her son to breed them. She now needs her shed back, that is why she sold all the others, though she is still breeding collies.
She says she feeds her dogs twice a day on the dear food when i asked what she said Pedigree chum. she also plays with them at feeding time, never needed a walk they all play together so get plenty of exercise.

OMG!! 7 Girls? And in 8 months they are in that state? I hope that the others fared better than this girl? I feel particularly sorry for the Collies still with that family, they deserve so much better than that.

Pedigree C**p is NOT a dear food, OK there are others that are cheaper but PC is not a costly feed, nor is it a quality one at that, I think the best thing to say about this woman is "Ignorance is Bliss!" as that is what has quite clearly happened here. :swear:

Caraline
14th July 2007, 10:40 PM
That is absolutely disgraceful :(

Rj Mac
14th July 2007, 11:37 PM
That is awful....so glad she's out now, but what posesses these :swear: people

Cathy Moon
14th July 2007, 11:52 PM
Her owner phoned me awhile ago to ask me how she is. When i told her nicely all the things wrong with her, her reply i knew about the skin i was treating her with Ivomac when i asked what is it.Did a vet give it her she said no we are farmers we have it. to cut short are conversation she said all her dogs are treated well. When i asked about vacs she said we live on a farm no dogs around they dont need it.
The thing is i dont know if this lady is just ignorant to the welfare of her animals or she is sorry i cant write what i want to say about her.

sorry but i had to get this off my chest i have been sitting here for the last hour fuming.
Whether it was ignorance, neglect, or cruelty - I believe it should be reported to ISPCA. In my opinion, people should not be allowed to own animals if they cannot or will not care for them properly.

sallymum
17th July 2007, 10:11 AM
Seen this little girl again last night she still is in a sorryfully state if u seen her she would make u cry. She is very timid but loves company once she nows ur going to be gentle with her. Loves sitting on laps cries when she is left.Paddy is doing a great job with her never leaves her for a sec brings her to work as well. Hopefully in another week or two she will be looking and feeling alot better.

coconut
17th July 2007, 10:45 AM
that is a disgrace i would defo report this women it makes me sick i so understand how u are fuming i would be to!

Sue.k
17th July 2007, 11:26 AM
Oh my god, just seen this posting now, that poor dog, I would report that woman straight away, she shouldnt be allowed have dogs, she obviously doesnt have a clue how to care for them! Please post pictures of her in a few weeks so we can see how the poor baby is doing :(

Moviedust
17th July 2007, 04:30 PM
UGH... the poor dogs!! Mange is transmittable to humans. I hope everyone who had contact with this dog properly sanitized their hands and feet after handling it. There are two different kinds of mange; one is fairly easy to treat the other is not; I can't remember which is which, now. Anyone know which kind this dog has?

I know exactly what Sandy is talking about with "farm dog mentality." (Heck, it could even be me that used the term!!) Where I grew up, that's the mentality that most people have concerning their dogs. The dogs are considered somewhere between a farm hand and a farm animal. The animal provides a service on the farm; if it does its job well, it gets fed. If not, the animal generally dies due to any number of reasons (gets run over, killed by coyotes or cougars, or is shot for killing a chicken, etc). My own father had this mentality until we overruled him in the family and brought our lab/shepherd mix to live inside. HORRORS Literally, if you treat your dog any better than this, people think you're stupid or worse. My parents, who live in town, had a raccoon eating the corn out of their garden. The standard advice they received from folks was to make their dog (12 year old lab/shepherd who has arthritis, deafness, and blindness) sleep out in the garden to scare away the coon. My mother's negative response to the idea resulted in eye rolls and whispers.

On another topic:

Even though I havent dealt with a lot of owners giving up their dogs to rescues, I did deal with Holly's original owners. They are NOT farm people. They had Holly and a young lab living with them in their home. From Holly's behavior, she seems to have been spoiled without being taught any manners. However, at the time I collected her, she was 11 months old, she had never been to a vet, not even for a rabies shot. When I registered shock, the owner said, "but we love her to death; she hasnt been neglected. she doesn't go outside at all, so she's not at risk for anything."

So apparently, health checkups, vaccinations, and exercise are not necessary for dogs and a dog is not neglected if an owner fails to provide them. Needless to say, the first thing Holly got to do was visit our vet. She's now getting treatment for coccidia.

sallymum
17th July 2007, 04:34 PM
This little girl hasnt got mange. there not sure what it is but tested clear for mange.

Karlin
17th July 2007, 04:41 PM
Be sure they know about Dry EYe/Curly Coat Syndrome in cavaliers. This is from Rod Russell's website. It is possible that the scabby lesions are associated with this:


Curly Coat -- Rough Coat Syndrome in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels

A rarer but far more severe form of dry eye syndrome in some Cavalier puppies is a combination of dry eye and a congenital skin condition called "curly coat" or "rough coat" syndrome (ichthyosis keratoconjunctivitis sicca). The reference to a curly or rough coat comes from the unusually curly abnormality of the Cavalier's coat which is apparent at birth. However, the puppy also suffers from an extreme version of dry eye, and as the affected dog matures, it develops a deterioration of the skin which results in seborrhea, consisting of skin inflammation and excessive oiliness. Also, the dog's teeth, gums, and other connective tissues may be adversely affected. The form of dry eye associated with curly coat also is rare in that it is of congenital origin.

In cases of curly coat (rough coat) syndrome, nearly continuous daily care, including very frequent medicinal bathing, is required to treat the skin condition, as well as applying the eye medications. In a 2003 study reported by Dr. Keith C. Barnett, OBE MA PhD BSc DVOphthal FRCVS DIpECVO, European Specialist in Veterinary Ophthalmology, the dry eye condition of curly coat dogs may be so severe that cyclosporine therapy is ineffective, and the skin condition progresses into severe lesions. In a September 2006 paper, Dr. Barnett reported that successful treatment of the skin condition is not possible, although there can be some improvement in the dry eye condition.

Dr. Barnett reported that the need for constant care of the eyes and skin may lead breeders to resort to early euthanasia of the affected puppies as the only humane result, to avoid the dogs suffering from lifetimes of extreme discomfort and permanent eye damage.

No cases of the combination of dry eye syndrome and curly coat syndrome have been reported in any other breed. Studies have been conducted in the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, Sweden, the Czech Republic, and Iceland. It is believed to be due to a simple autosomal recessive gene. If so, then affected puppies are more likely to be found in cases of line breeding or inbreeding on carrier bloodlines. During a two year period recently in Iceland, more than half of many litters of Cavalier puppies were born affected by the syndrome. The disorder may be more widespread than previously believed as more owners and veterinarians become aware of its symptoms.

More info including reseach references:

http://www.cavalierhealth.org/dry_eye.htm

Hopefully they will pinpoint something else but they need to be aware of this possibility.

sallymum
17th July 2007, 04:46 PM
I will print this out and give it to Paddy. Thanks

arasara
17th July 2007, 04:47 PM
wow that is sad. :( The poor dog barely has any hair left :(

I don't know what to say other than this woman may need someone of authority to sort her out

sallymum
17th July 2007, 04:49 PM
All that hair was actually shaved off. Its the sores that were on the dog.

misty
17th July 2007, 06:02 PM
From what I've learned recently, it would appear (as Angela said) that the puppy farmers themselves think they care for their 'stock' very well, ie the dogs.

I admire anyone that gets these dogs out of bad situations when they can.

AT
17th July 2007, 06:31 PM
ooh that looks sore :(
we had a dog with a similar skin condition , maybe not quiet as bad , a local puppyfarmer had sort of "repossessed " it from their partner & brought it half way across the country for us.
His dogs wern't good either( he sold pups at 4 weeks old ! )but he was still very annoyed about the state of the dog & went to the effort of getting it for us.
I really don't understand how their minds work i'm afraid

Nicki
17th July 2007, 06:48 PM
OMG I wish I hadn't looked - that poor wee mite :(

What is the matter with these people??? I wish we could do the same to them and see how they like it...

Thank goodness she is safe now - bless you for taking her in.

alibunnylady
17th July 2007, 11:55 PM
Good God, Ivomec should NOT be used on dogs or cats, it's a cattle/sheep wormer and could actually kill a dog or cat. It CAN be used on rabbits in very small doses ( I use it on my bunnies, it's prescribed by my vet for them) but should never ever be used on dogs or cats. It's no wonder the poor dog has such bad skin, the ivomec has probably made it a hundred times worse.

Some people are just so stupid aren't they.

Hope the poor doggy recovers well now that it is in good hands. I take it the farmers won't be having it back? I certainly hope not.

Alison

WoodHaven
18th July 2007, 12:09 AM
Good God, Ivomec should NOT be used on dogs or cats, it's a cattle/sheep wormer and could actually kill a dog or cat. It CAN be used on rabbits in very small doses ( I use it on my bunnies, it's prescribed by my vet for them) but should never ever be used on dogs or cats. It's no wonder the poor dog has such bad skin, the ivomec has probably made it a hundred times worse.

Some people are just so stupid aren't they.

Hope the poor doggy recovers well now that it is in good hands. I take it the farmers won't be having it back? I certainly hope not.

Alison

Ivermectin is given to dogs all the time-- Heartgard. Different doses of Ivomec kills different parasites at different doses, heartworm preventitive, heartworm treatments and mite infestation. It has to be given diluted in a solution.

Karlin
18th July 2007, 12:53 AM
It is used for dogs but in the US actually is not legal for some purposes in dogs -- but lots of places there will prescribe it anyway. Rescues sometimes use it as it is cheaper to get in bulk. This is from a discussion elsewhere:


Don't use Ivomec as heartworm preventative for dogs

Ivermectin is the active ingredient in Heartgard, a prescription heartworm preventative for dogs. It is also the ingredient in Ivomec, a large animal wormer available at feed stores over the counter.

This has led some people to try to save money on the purchase price, and to avoid paying for heartworm testing, by purchasing the large animal Ivomec for their dogs. There are three reasons why this is a bad idea.

1. This practice is the number one cause of ivermectin toxicity in dogs**. This is because Ivomec is much, much more concentrated than Heartgard. Even if you are trained in administering medicine, it is very easy to give your dog too much. Think how you would feel if you poisoned your dog trying to save a buck.

2. Federal law* prohibits vets from telling you to use Ivomec this way. This means, you are probably not getting annual HW testing done on your dog--and annual testing is a good idea, because no preventative is perfect, especially when imperfect (read: human) pet owners are administering it.

3. Heartgard comes with a warranty. If you are getting Heartgard from your vet, and you are annually testing, the manufacturer will pay for the costs of treatment if your dog develops heartworm (as of the time of this writing). There is no such warranty on Ivomec.

*AMDUCA, the Animal Medical Drug Use Clarification Act. This is a widely misunderstood law, even by vets, but it prohibits veterinarians from using an off label drug when the active ingredient already exists in a labelled drug for that purpose in that species. It's not widely enforced in small animal medicine, but it is federal law, nonetheless.

**Information obtained from the American Association of Veterinary Toxicologists.

(I am not a licensed veterinarian. I possess an Associate of Applied Science degree in Veterinary Technology)

Veterinarypartner.com notes Ivomectin/Ivomec as a treatments in appropriate amounts for mange but also notes it is not legal for it to be used for this purpose. Lots of rescue do get it for this use though and many vets will prscribe it nonetheless. It is known to be potentially lethal for collies though.

Full info: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1586&S=4&SourceID=61

Given the general ignorance of the people who owned that cavalier I don't imagine they'd have been the best judge of dosages! :shock:

WoodHaven
18th July 2007, 01:07 AM
Yes, that is why I didn't explain what solution it is mixed with to make a proper dosage. I know someone who overdosed their dogs because they weren't good with math--- gave her dogs 10X's the needed dosage.

Karlin
18th July 2007, 01:27 AM
That's the hard bit as there are generally some decimal places in the solution leveland there's a big difference between a .1% solution and a .01% solution. I'd be scared at getting the wrong mixture level!

WoodHaven
18th July 2007, 01:46 AM
Ivermectin is a short term poison that is used to treat certain parasites in pigs, sheep, cows, rabbits, guinea pigs, dogs, cats and HUMANS (and others).

http://www.drugs.com/MMX/Ivermectin.html

Karlin
18th July 2007, 10:31 AM
That's right; if you've ever had scabies :yikes you may well have been dosed with it. If you've ever had them -- and there was a year when they seemed to be going around when I kept getting them -- you can pick them up off even a handtowel someone else has used... or a mangy dog! -- you can understand how the poor dogs scratch out half their coat. :shock:

sallymum
18th July 2007, 12:17 PM
this is what my vet injected Coco with the other night.If Coco skin is not improved next week i have to bring him back for another shot.

inca
18th July 2007, 03:03 PM
those who know me will tell you I am not easly shocked or scared

BUT my god that pic made my heart jump thats neglect in the highest form IMPO

alibunnylady
18th July 2007, 11:13 PM
I stand corrected, I was told by other people about ivomec being poisonous to dogs and cats so just took their word for it. That'll teach me! lol!

Alison

sallymum
19th July 2007, 09:23 AM
Went to see this little girl last night and what a beauty she is becoming, her skin is a bit better.
She is so tiny with a beautiful little face. She must have had a few litters her teats are hanging to the floor. Another week or two and u wont know it is the same dog.