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Brika
15th July 2007, 06:44 PM
Hello everyone. I'm Brika. I'm here because we just bought a new cav! We're thrilled... and worried too. We have been researching Cav's for a year now, and we're delighted to add one to our family, but I'm hoping we didn't make a mistake by buying from the breeder that we did.

She's from Iowa and sounds great. We found her online, which I see now is a no no. Too late, I sent deposit. Puppies were born last Saturday the 7th. We can pick her up at 7 weeks if all goes well. I'm hoping that this is a reputable breeder... but I'm worried because she doesn't register with AKC... she uses APR and ACA? I've now read they are scam registries. Now we're not going to breed or show... we just want an indoor snuggle pet. (we now have two chocolate labs, one bunny, and one cat!) I do child care and we are home all day and everthing I've read about Cavs says they love to be on your lap and loved... that's what I want.

More on the breeder... she's had two litters with her momma. This is her 2nd. The momma had 8 pups... 6 girls 2 boys all blenheims. We are 5th on the list to choose from the girls.

We will be driving to pick her up, she does ship but prefers to have you pick up. She doesn't sell to pet stores. She doesn't show her dogs, but breeds three other breeds as well. She says her husband is a neat freak and lysols daily, she decorates for Christmas in their kennels, etc. She wouldn't let me make a deposit until she'd spoken with both myself and my husband on the phone... she says she wants to be sure that her dogs are placed with loving families.

The price was much cheaper than anyone else we've checked with... that worried me too, but she assured me that she does want to make money but isn't in it FOR the money.

So, we've sent our deposit and are cautiously hopeful that all is well.

We're very excited!

What is your advice on our transaction?


... OH, she does have an exam that she'll have done before we pick her up... some exam she says she does before they can cross state lines? 50$ extra.



What should I look out for? What books do you reccommend as far as puppy training? What products are a must have and what products are FUN?

Thanks so much! We're excited to be here!

Karlin
15th July 2007, 06:56 PM
I know you will feel a strong attachment and a lot of excitement now and won;t want to hear this, but please: ask for your deposit back and use a reputable health focused breeder. Your lower cost dog is very likely going to cost you more long term in health issues and you also won't be supporting someone who obviously cares very little about this breed. This woman is most likely either a backyard breeder, a broker for puppy mill dogs, or a puppy miller pretending to only sell cavaliers. None of these is someone you want to go near. Many of our board members have experienced terrible heartbreak in getting sickly puppies from such people.

The sham registries are there not for producing good health pet quality puppies as an alternative to the real registries but because shoddy breeders cannot get the better quality dogs to breed and also fully intend to dupe unwary buyers into thinking these meaningless registries actually confer some kind of quality mark and health guarantee on the dog. They don't -- just the opposite. These registries only exist to make money off the shoddy breeders. Which they do. But their 'registration' means absolutely nothing.

People here will be happy to help you find a better breeder.

Also please consider that this is a breed that is prone to some potentially costly health issues. If a few hundred dollars matter a lot in purchasing cost, have you considered how to manage potentially large vet costs? For any dog this is always a central consideration but especially so with a purebred -- you need to pick an excellent health focused breeder and need to be able to manage possible health costs/insure the dog.

The Library section has some really good links about what to consider when finding a dog, what to ask the breeder as a minimu, what health certs to be shown, health issues, etc. Sounds like you are getting some good reading done now and I'd be sure to have a good look over all that material.

:thmbsup:

Brika
15th July 2007, 07:02 PM
Karlin,

thanks for your reply. I appreciate your advice. I'm just wondering if it's not a possiblity that this is a good breeder?

It seems that if she wants us to come pick up the puppy, doesn't sell to brokers or pet stores, etc. That she may be a good breeder who isn't interested in AKC registration.

I'm going now to read in the library some more questions and go from there. Hopefully I can decide what to do here.

I am excited and thrilled to be getting a new friend... but I do want to be careful. I appreciate your help!

AT
15th July 2007, 07:06 PM
The price was much cheaper than anyone else we've checked with... that worried me too, but she assured me that she does want to make money but isn't in it FOR the money.



I don't really get how those comments go together , if you want to make a profit you are in it for the money.

& whats decorating the kennels at xmas got to do with anything ? That makes me think she's trying too hard to prove she loves her dogs.

Brika
15th July 2007, 07:14 PM
I don't really get how those comments go together , if you want to make a profit you are in it for the money.

& whats decorating the kennels at xmas got to do with anything ? That makes me think she's trying too hard to prove she loves her dogs.


She's a grandma who is retired... she was saying that she does it to make some money... but doesn't feel that charging 2000$ and up is realistic. I was paraphrasing for her.

The decorating thing was part of her story on how excited she was to have a litter born on 7-7-7... she was telling me all about her grandkids coming over to see the pups...and how at christmas they (the grandkids) love to help decorate the stockings in the kennel



I may be a fool here... but the lady really struck me as someone who simply loves her dogs. I can see that you've all had many others like me here ... buy a dog, without knowing where it came from... I understand that you all might feel that I'm irresponsible and naieve.

I just want a loyal pet and friend for my kids and child care kids. I'm not loooking for perfection, and these dogs need a home too. I'm hoping I'm not making a mistake.

I want to hear more about your concerns... but also do you think a bad breeder would want us to come to her home for pick up? would she not sell to pet stores or brokers? Would she still get a health exam before leaving out of state? If this really is a bad deal... how can I be sure? AND is there any way she'll give us back our deposit??

Thanks again!

Brika
15th July 2007, 07:20 PM
Your lower cost dog is very likely going to cost you more long term in health issues and you also won't be supporting someone who obviously cares very little about this breed. This woman is most likely either a backyard breeder, a broker for puppy mill dogs, or a puppy miller pretending to only sell cavaliers. None of these is someone you want to go near. Many of our board members have experienced terrible heartbreak in getting sickly puppies from such people.

The sham registries are there not for producing good health pet quality puppies as an alternative to the real registries but because shoddy breeders cannot get the better quality dogs to breed and also fully intend to dupe unwary buyers into thinking these meaningless registries actually confer some kind of quality mark and health guarantee on the dog. They don't -- just the opposite. These registries only exist to make money off the shoddy breeders. Which they do. But their 'registration' means absolutely nothing.

People here will be happy to help you find a better breeder.

Also please consider that this is a breed that is prone to some potentially costly health issues. If a few hundred dollars matter a lot in purchasing cost, have you considered how to manage potentially large vet costs? For any dog this is always a central consideration but especially so with a purebred -- you need to pick an excellent health focused breeder and need to be able to manage possible health costs/insure the dog.

The Library section has some really good links about what to consider when finding a dog, what to ask the breeder as a minimu, what health certs to be shown, health issues, etc. Sounds like you are getting some good reading done now and I'd be sure to have a good look over all that material.

:thmbsup:


What is wrong with a backyard breeder? Can you explain? I also am wondering how this situation is for sure producing unhealhty dogs?

Justine
15th July 2007, 07:22 PM
Not to ruin it either.But i have phoned at least 10 breeders in 8 months and hey guess what,i have heard all of that before.Plus she is breeding other dogs.Please you sound like a lovely lady,gentle and caring and she has proberley picked up on that,but ITS NOT WORTH IT.Do what has been suggested an pm one of the girls on site they will be of fantastic help.But then again you could be what the vet said to us DAM LUCKY.

Cathy Moon
15th July 2007, 07:22 PM
We're thrilled... and worried too. We have been researching Cav's for a year now, and we're delighted to add one to our family, but I'm hoping we didn't make a mistake by buying from the breeder that we did.

We found her online, which I see now is a no no. Too late, I sent deposit.

I'm hoping that this is a reputable breeder... but I'm worried because she doesn't register with AKC... she uses APR and ACA? I've now read they are scam registries.

She doesn't show her dogs, but breeds three other breeds as well.

The price was much cheaper than anyone else we've checked with... that worried me too, but she assured me that she does want to make money but isn't in it FOR the money.

So, we've sent our deposit and are cautiously hopeful that all is well.

What is your advice on our transaction?

... OH, she does have an exam that she'll have done before we pick her up... some exam she says she does before they can cross state lines? 50$ extra.

What should I look out for?
Just based on these statements and questions you've written, I truly believe you are dealing with either a puppy mill or back yard breeder.

Justine
15th July 2007, 07:27 PM
Yep me too,ALARM BELLS.I have learnt alot from this site,i have also learnt what questions to ask the breeders.please wait ,i know its hard,i would not go back to the lady i got alfs from,but we were lucky.Its not the money,its heartbreaking to see them sick.Only you can decide.

Justine
15th July 2007, 07:29 PM
Who could she pm,for good advice......

jld
15th July 2007, 07:41 PM
I find it very concerning that a breeder would let you have a puppy as young as 7 weeks. Most insist they are at least 9 weeks. Some won't let them go until 10-12 weeks.

mishmosh
15th July 2007, 07:42 PM
This screams alarm bells too. You really haven't done your homework at all.

Buying a puppy you have never seen or been vetted by the breeder isn't at all recommended. She could be anybody and I don't like the fact she has promised you a pup without even meeting you and knowing your background and home setup.

You have no idea what conditions the puppies have been bred in and what their background is. Makes you wonder how many litters are produced and why they're not registered. I suspect they've a puppy mill background in one way or another. Have you asked her about whether the parents suffer heart conditions, SM and hernias?

Seriously, you've never met the puppy and little bond so I would pull out and get a refund ASAP and look for a breeder where you can visit beforehand and know what you're purchasing.

Nancy
15th July 2007, 07:54 PM
you can PM me if you want names of good breeders in your area. This lady has sucked you in , she does NOTHING that people who really care about HEALTH and THE BREED do. Also, someone like this, doesn't care what they look like and while almost all puppies are cute, this puppy make not even look much like a pretty grown up Cavalier. She may be healthy, but usually poorly bred Cavaliers are prone to knee problems at the very least. Tell her something has come up in your personal life and it isn't the right time to get a puppy, you don't know if it ever will, and see how nice she'll be about giving you a refund and caring about the puppy's placement. This lady should not be breeding, no one with a quality dog would ever sell her one or allow her to breed. Those registries are a sham, to fool the public. All you need is a picture to register a dog with them. She IS doing it for the money, don't kid yourself. She couldn't GET $2,000 for puppies of that quality. NO good breeder in the US places puppies at less than 10 weeks of age, the things they learn from their littermates make a lot of difference in getting a well socialized puppy with proper bite inhibition, ie , they'll practice biting you instead of their littermates who would teach them that if you bite hard, I won't play with you. They learn other good things as well. This lady probably has a ton of puppies of all breeds and probaby very little time to socialize them.

Cathy Moon
15th July 2007, 07:55 PM
The best thing to do is take your time and learn the right way to buy a puppy. There is no reason to rush into it.

Please feel free to PM me to help you generate ideas for getting your deposit back. It may not be that difficult to get a refund.

Moviedust
15th July 2007, 08:11 PM
Your instincts are probably right: this breeder is probably not a good one. She sounds like a backyard breeder. Backyard breeders do not have to be nasty, cruel people. She very well could be a lovely woman and she very well may think that she's doing a wonderful thing by breeding her dogs (as a retired hobbyist) and finding good homes for the pups. Loving dogs does not always equate to being a good dog owner; the same is true for breeders.

Even a well-meaning backyard breeder is one that you probably do not want to get a puppy from because you will run the probability of having health issues, and possibly behavioral issues down the line. Breeding healthy dogs that meet the expectations of the breed (including a cavalier's interest in being a snuggle baby) takes a great deal of knowledge about the dog's genetic line. It means knowing generations and generations of the dog's family and their long term health and temperament. This type of breeding requires lots of health tests for good hearts, good eyes, good knees, and good brains (Have you heard of SM?). All of these health tests are on the parents and grandparents of the pups, so that the breeder can breed the best dogs to get the best puppies. These are NOT necessarily show dogs; these are the basic snuggle pets you're interested in.

If you continue down the path you are on with this breeder, you will find yourself with a very cute little puppy at 7 weeks old. This dog will barely be weened, so its digestive tract could have issues. It will be very infantile and insecure, so you will face night after night of a crying puppy. It will not have had the necessary play time with its litter mates to learn appropriate socialization and bite inhibition skills. It will not have had time to learn from the older dogs in the home how to use the outside as a potty area, so you'll be looking at months of frustrating house-training. And this is with a HEALTHY puppy!

Health-wise, you could face general issues, such as basic infestations of worms, coccidia, and/or ear mites, which are all common problems with pups who have not had proper vet treatment. This vet treatment should be standard, not something you should have to pay extra for. What if you don't pay for it? The pup might not have ANY vaccinations or de-wormings, so you'll have a vulnerable and probably infested dog.

In the longer term, you could find that your dog has weak knees, which is a common probably with cavaliers. Luxating Patellas can cause pain and difficulty walking, and they require surgical repair. Such surgery can costs thousands of dollars. If you don't do the surgery, you can have a lame dog.

Another likely health problem you will face is Mitral Valve Disease, which is a congenital heart disease. Most cavaliers will face MVD in its lifetime. If you have a poorly breed dog, it could start to suffer heart failure while it is still quite young. Breeding could mean the difference of losing your dog after 7 years or 14.

Health issues are problematic, but you can also be dealing with behavior issues. Cavaliers, as a breed, are known for their loving, people-centered nature. This behavior is part of the breed. However, if your dog is not breed well with strong lines of these behaviors, your dog might NOT want to be a laptog. It might NOT be safe to have around kids. There's no way you will know until the dog is grown, unless you have a breeder who can vouch for the behavior of the parents, grandparents, and other extended lines of your dog.

There are other major concerns (read up on SM too!) for which good breeding can reduce the risk. With the dog you've mentioned, you will need to EXPECT these problems.

Everyone wants to get a lovely little puppy, and the less one has to pay the more economical it will be. However, sometimes the upfront costs can safe you money and heartache in the future. You're at a good place to learn a lot of information, and you still have time to make a choice that you feel is best for you and your family (as well as your business!!).

If you have any questions, I'm sure the board members will do what we can to answer them with your best interests at heart.

loveisokay
15th July 2007, 08:15 PM
I find it very concerning that a breeder would let you have a puppy as young as 7 weeks. Most insist they are at least 9 weeks. Some won't let them go until 10-12 weeks.

I've heard from a great deal of experienced dog owners/trainers that give excellent advice that like to get their dog at seven weeks. In fact, my mum got her dog when he was seven weeks from a breeder that really cared for the breed; she did health checks, showed & rescued. I wouldn't say it is a bad thing at all & I am very glad I got my puppy at eight weeks rather than ten weeks as she learnt some very important lessons in manners at that young age that have stuck far better than those taught when she was over 10 weeks.

From what I know & have read, this person doesn't sound like a straight out "backyard breeder". She clearly shows some consideration as the puppies are not being sold when they are ready (she has found homes for her puppies first) & she's also questioning owners. The only flag raised, in my opinion, is that she is openly admitting that she would like to make money. But in all honesty, she wouldn't want to lose money on this, would she? I haven't read anywhere that there were no tests taken out on the parents, nor what age the dam is, so where are people getting to by saying she should be concerned with the puppies' health? A larger price for a dog does not mean the dog is healthier whatsoever so what is there to say that the smaller price tag is automatically a healthy dog. Many people breed dogs as solely pets & there is nothing wrong with that either. Yes the breeder has offered delivery of puppies, but many breeders do & she has said she prefers them to be collected.

WoodHaven
15th July 2007, 08:22 PM
What is wrong with a backyard breeder? Can you explain? I also am wondering how this situation is for sure producing unhealhty dogs?

A backyard breeder is out to make money... They are producing a product to fulfill a demand for cheap puppies. A dog is a living being prone to a myriad of nasty diseases, a purebred dog has specific diseases they a predisposed to. To not do patella, heart, and eye exams (AT LEAST) by veterinary specialist is like playing russian roulette. YOU CAN GET LUCKY and not be hit with debilitating diseases. Because I love this breed, I volunteer with cavalier rescues. I'd say of the rescues I've had here at my house-- about 25-30% have luxating patellas. They can be expensive to fix and very hard on the dog to live with. One had a major behavior disorder.
Bottom line is I want my dog to live a good quality of life-- I wouldn't risk buying a dog from a breeder who didn't have a plan on how to make healthier, longer living, cavaliers that look, act and love like a cavalier. fwiw, Sandy

Nancy
15th July 2007, 08:29 PM
I've heard from a great deal of experienced dog owners/trainers that give excellent advice that like to get their dog at seven weeks. In fact, my mum got her dog when he was seven weeks from a breeder that really cared for the breed; she did health checks, showed & rescued. I wouldn't say it is a bad thing at all & I am very glad I got my puppy at eight weeks rather than ten weeks as she learnt some very important lessons in manners at that young age that have stuck far better than those taught when she was over 10 weeks.

From what I know & have read, this person doesn't sound like a straight out "backyard breeder". She clearly shows some consideration as the puppies are not being sold when they are ready (she has found homes for her puppies first) & she's also questioning owners. The only flag raised, in my opinion, is that she is openly admitting that she would like to make money. But in all honesty, she wouldn't want to lose money on this, would she? I haven't read anywhere that there were no tests taken out on the parents, nor what age the dam is, so where are people getting to by saying she should be concerned with the puppies' health? A larger price for a dog does not mean the dog is healthier whatsoever so what is there to say that the smaller price tag is automatically a healthy dog. Many people breed dogs as solely pets & there is nothing wrong with that either. Yes the breeder has offered delivery of puppies, but many breeders do & she has said she prefers them to be collected.

there is NO BREEDER here that would place a cavalier at 7 weeks who cared about the welfare of the puppies, period. There are too many red flags to count them...and sorry, but this type of breeder does NOT do health testing that they should, I would place money on a bet that they claim the puppies are "vet cleared" which means nothing in this breed. The parents are the key. I would also bet she bred the mother young, even though that information is not in the post. These types of breeders fit a pattern, I too am in resue , and I see the difference between a well bred cavalier and not...it's the dogs and the homes that suffer, but mostly the dogs , and for that, I cannot forgive these people. If you're gonna breed, do it right.

mishmosh
15th July 2007, 08:44 PM
a friend of mine bought a cavalier years ago from a backyard breeder who had no papers. The first puppy died at 12 weeks and the second turned out to be blind and had to be put down ;(

Lisa_T
15th July 2007, 08:51 PM
I have two Cavaliers from a show breeder- but I hadn't quite realised the severity of MVD before getting my first Cav, and with the second I researched the lines before accepting the pup, so even though my second girl's parents have not got heart clearances, for example, her grandparents have lived/ are living to good ages (10 plus) and are on the clear heart list. Again, I hadn't realised about the severity of SM when I got my second girl. Now, even though both my dogs are healthy, I've already made the decision that when I look for a Cavalier again, I will either be looking for a rescue OR I will go to one of the top breeders in my area who I *know* does all the health tests.

If you're determined to go ahead, at the very least ask for a copy of your puppy's pedigree *before* it comes home. If you can't even get that, run away and run fast. A copy of the pedigree will allow you to do a certain amount of research re heart yourself. No pedigree means that you may as well collect a dog from the pound, since you will know nothing about the puppy's background. Familiarise yourself with MVD and SM and realise just how common they are in this breed- and ask yourself whether you wouldn't rather pay more, if the extra money buys you peace of mind.

Good luck!

WoodHaven
15th July 2007, 08:51 PM
I've heard from a great deal of experienced dog owners/trainers that give excellent advice that like to get their dog at seven weeks. In fact, my mum got her dog when he was seven weeks from a breeder that really cared for the breed; she did health checks, showed & rescued. I wouldn't say it is a bad thing at all & I am very glad I got my puppy at eight weeks rather than ten weeks as she learnt some very important lessons in manners at that young age that have stuck far better than those taught when she was over 10 weeks.

From what I know & have read, this person doesn't sound like a straight out "backyard breeder". She clearly shows some consideration as the puppies are not being sold when they are ready (she has found homes for her puppies first) & she's also questioning owners. The only flag raised, in my opinion, is that she is openly admitting that she would like to make money. But in all honesty, she wouldn't want to lose money on this, would she? I haven't read anywhere that there were no tests taken out on the parents, nor what age the dam is, so where are people getting to by saying she should be concerned with the puppies' health? A larger price for a dog does not mean the dog is healthier whatsoever so what is there to say that the smaller price tag is automatically a healthy dog. Many people breed dogs as solely pets & there is nothing wrong with that either. Yes the breeder has offered delivery of puppies, but many breeders do & she has said she prefers them to be collected.


(1)Cavaliers are very slow developers-- I don't know of one "good breeder" who would ever suggest not waiting until at least 8 weeks. Many code of ethics of breed clubs require that you don't home the pup until it is AT LEAST 8 weeks , preferably 10. Some cavaliers aren't even weaned fully until they are 5 or 6 weeks old.
(2) 7 weeks can be a fear period for dogs- so many vets, trainers and breeders discourage homing pups at this time.
(3) Some of the best teachers of puppies are other dogs- you'd be amazed how easy it is to house train a young puppy when they are with the older dogs. What on earth could a human train a pup at 7 weeks that they can't as well at 10 weeks??
(4) If she is making $$$ by selling for less, she has to sell a lot more pups. I don't make any money, in fact I work to help support the dogs-- the dogs don't help to support me.
(5) She sells on the internet at cheaper prices-- I don't and I've turned away over a dozen requests for pups in May, ten in June and so far 4 in July. I don't take deposits and I don't keep waiting lists.
(6) Shelters are FULL of wonderful dogs for pets---Our rescue rehomes a lot of cavaliers every year-- why do we have to have breeders making second rate, non tested, non registered pets??????
Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree with almost everything you've stated. Sandy

loveisokay
15th July 2007, 08:53 PM
there is NO BREEDER here that would place a cavalier at 7 weeks who cared about the welfare of the puppies, period. There are too many red flags to count them...and sorry, but this type of breeder does NOT do health testing that they should, I would place money on a bet that they claim the puppies are "vet cleared" which means nothing in this breed. The parents are the key. I would also bet she bred the mother young, even though that information is not in the post. These types of breeders fit a pattern, I too am in resue , and I see the difference between a well bred cavalier and not...it's the dogs and the homes that suffer, but mostly the dogs , and for that, I cannot forgive these people. If you're gonna breed, do it right.

"This type"?? They are all the same, are they? Sorry, but I don't buy that. Everyone is different as is every breeder & even amongst "reputable" breeders, morals & ideals differ & you find out which is best for you. I refuse to even classify this breeder as anything, you don't know that she doesn't health check whatsoever! What an assumtion to make about someone! Stop "betting" & look at what the OP has actually posted about this litter & the breeder rather than reading into things that the OP might have forgotten to post about or mention or ask!

Again, I have heard a great deal of very reputable experienced dog owners who buy their puppies young because the experience of that extra week adds a great deal to trainability. I would not condone people to pick up at seven weeks unless, like these experience people I am talking about, are 100% they can offer the correct environment to make this worthwhile. Fine if no breeder here does not do it, it's again a difference between breeders whatever breed. Doesn't make it right!

Personally, I think this person needs to ask more questions & be more comfortable either way that this breeder is for her or not rather than hearing from people on the internets' opinions on a breeder from a selective amount of facts. Obviously, if she is not concerned with the dogs' health then then what has been said is perfectly fine but please, why are people saying things they don't know to be truth?

loveisokay
15th July 2007, 09:05 PM
(1)Cavaliers are very developers-- I don't know of one "good breeder" who would ever suggest not waiting until at least 8 weeks. Many code of ethics of breed clubs require that you don't home the pup until it is AT LEAST 8 weeks , preferably 10. Some cavaliers aren't even weaned fully until they are 5 or 6 weeks old.
(2) 7 weeks can be a fear period for dogs- so many vets, trainers and breeders discourage homing pups at this time.
(3) Some of the best teachers of puppies are other dogs- you'd be amazed how easy it is to house train a young puppy when they are with the older dogs. What on earth could a human train a pup at 7 weeks that they can't as well at 10 weeks??
(4) If she is making $$$ by selling for less, she has to sell a lot more pups. I don't make any money, in fact I work to help support the dogs-- the dogs don't help to support me.
(5) She sells on the internet at cheaper prices-- I don't and I've turned away over a dozen requests for pups in May, ten in June and so far 4 in July. I don't take deposits and I don't keep waiting lists.
(6) Shelters are FULL of wonderful dogs for pets---Our rescue rehomes a lot of cavaliers every year-- why do we have to have breeders making second rate, non tested, non registered pets??????
Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree with almost everything you've stated. Sandy


1) I don't disagree with that, but being homed to a new experienced home before 8 weeks is not unheard of & is done because of the benefits these people find in doing so since the dogs are more like "velcro" at this age & it introduces a far better relationship between dog & owner. I don't think it's for everyone, no way. Most people shouldn't have them until 10 weeks as they cannot offer this stable environment to make the best of the fear period these dogs go through.
2) & yet some trainers, behavourists & vets get them early themselves because they can use the issues found to their advantage. As I said, it's not for the inexperienced & not for all breeds/dogs as it can be seen as much more beneficial in working dogs.. I am merely saying it is not entirely immoral to allow them to go that early.
3) As I have said, my puppy picked up on a LOT more when she was 8 weeks old because she was so clingy rather than when she was 10 weeks old. I know this to be a fact with my dog & I believe it when I have heard other owners say that at seven weeks old, they notice even more of a clinginess in their dogs that have improved their trainability as I trained my dog three different things within a week after bringing her home with no food insentive. That's the difference it makes!
4) She's said the dog has only had two litters. No where does it say the dam's age. You can't assume she's trying to make money in the long run or from that one litter. Obviously, as would any breeder, she may have meant it to mean she would not like to make a loss on the litter as no breeder wants to lose money. I think things could have been taken out of context, what BYB would ADMIT to doing it for solely the money?
5) Why don't you use waiting lists & deposits? Surely a breeder should know that people want the puppies before they are born else they are being immoral! Plus, deposits ensure that the puppy that is born that you want won't be sold to some one who offers more. How can these things be bad things? Yes, the internet offers a lot of places that sell puppies by post & so on but it is also useful to advertise these puppies & so on. How have people found the breeders for the dogs they have now? Newspaper? Web? Word of mouth? What?
6) Heath checks were never mentioned in the original post so I cannot comment on this breeder's involvement in this & resent that people are jumping to conclusions. I have a non-registered dog & I don't think anything of that as at the end of the day, a registered dog could just as easily be a "sham". Who checks that the parents are who the breeder says they are?

WoodHaven
15th July 2007, 09:06 PM
Most breed clubs have a COE that state "I will not home a puppy before 8 weeks of age". Many successful byb are very charismatic and they know how to sell. They have learned what to say.

Do you really believe an average dog owner can train a dog better than the BREEDER?

The fact that the pup isn't registerable with the AKC is very telling..

And IMO-- you shouldn't jump on a list member whose only crime is trying to stop ANOTHER incident where someone gets hurt. It happens too often.

Nancy
15th July 2007, 09:07 PM
Holly, it's a good thought , but pedigrees from this registry are going to show names like "my banjo" and "Lucky Lucy". They will not identify any recognizable kennels....unless somewhere along the line someone deceived an AKC or CKCSC breeder, got a pet, and decided to breed them. They could then register with these kinds of registries. Usually backyard breeders, and there is no doubt this is one, at best, get their stock from friends or even auctions. I once talked a local lady out of getting her puppy from a place just like this. When she got pictures, they were of outside kennels, and still she thought this was a very nice lady....they are all nice while they are trying to make the sale. They have certain weasle words and phrases that would fool almost anyone who wasn't experienced in the breeding world.

loveisokay
15th July 2007, 09:12 PM
Most breed clubs have a COE that state "I will not home a puppy before 8 weeks of age". Many successful byb are very charismatic and they know how to sell. They have learned what to say.

Do you really believe an average dog owner can train a dog better than the BREEDER?

The fact that the pup isn't registerable with the AKC is very telling..

And IMO-- you shouldn't jump on a list member whose only crime is trying to stop ANOTHER incident where someone gets hurt. It happens too often.

I didn't say an average dog owner, I clearly said a very experienced owner who can make the most of the young age. I clearly said that! Yes, the club may say eight weeks but I am sure there are some rules that are broken by some so called "reputable" breeders & I think a dog going earlier to a very experienced home is not a bad thing. My opinion, that is.

Sorry, I don't follow the "list member" comment. I think you'll find that my advice to the OP regarding this situation was to ask more questions to be assured in whether they are comfortable, not a bunch of people on the web, with this breeder since she has talked to her & can see these puppies. It's a much better idea than yanking away her deposit or losing it when she may not be a backyard breeder & might actually be suited to her needs! I just really resent assumptions of any sort & believe it would be far more beneficial to know the facts by talking to this woman.

Nancy
15th July 2007, 09:14 PM
"This type"?? They are all the same, are they? Sorry, but I don't buy that. Everyone is different as is every breeder & even amongst "reputable" breeders, morals & ideals differ & you find out which is best for you. I refuse to even classify this breeder as anything, you don't know that she doesn't health check whatsoever! What an assumtion to make about someone! Stop "betting" & look at what the OP has actually posted about this litter & the breeder rather than reading into things that the OP might have forgotten to post about or mention or ask!


Personally, I think this person needs to ask more questions & be more comfortable either way that this breeder is for her or not rather than hearing from people on the internets' opinions on a breeder from a selective amount of facts. Obviously, if she is not concerned with the dogs' health then then what has been said is perfectly fine but please, why are people saying things they don't know to be truth?

yes, THIS TYPE. The type that buys inferior dogs, breeds them, breeds them a lot, breeds lots of kinds of dogs. I've been around long enough to know there is not a good breeder who breeds like this. But there are a lot of people who buy from people like this and most are sorry afterwards. Too many sad stories to even count...so please stop defending someone who is hurting our beloved breed and support the original poster in recognizing she may be on the road to a world of hurt instead of raising doubts unless YOU know something I don't. What do you think a backyard breeder IS if not this lady in Iowa selling off the net with dogs from a worthless registry? Why bother registering them at all if not to pass these dogs off as something they are not?

loveisokay
15th July 2007, 09:17 PM
Sorry, I am not defending anyone & am sorry you think I am. I just expect better of people when I think they should ask all the questions they can & know all they can before saying she is a "type". No one has heard anything about health testing, how can she be a "type" before knowing that? No one knows how old the dam is, how can that be a "type"?

Sorry, I just refuse to jump to unnecessary conclusions about someone when there is a possibility they are not doing the breed any harm. That's the sort of person I am..

sallymum
15th July 2007, 09:18 PM
I have got to know a lot of puppy farm dogs over the last couple of weeks and while hopefully with the help of Karlin and people like her these lucky few have got out and are on their way to a better life what about the poor ones that dont get out and while people continue to buy these puppies this cycle will continue. I have a rescue dog Sam who has more than likely been a puppy farm dog, while i love him to bits and wouldnt change him for all the money in the world, i would change all his health problems which can be read about on different threads.
So please before u buy this puppy think about everything that can go wrong with this puppies health. Also by buying these little one u are helping continue this cycle. If we all stopped buying from these people they would have to stop as there would be no demand for them.

WoodHaven
15th July 2007, 09:20 PM
1) I don't disagree with that, but being homed to a new experienced home before 8 weeks is not unheard of & is done because of the benefits these people find in doing so since the dogs are more like "velcro" at this age & it introduces a far better relationship between dog & owner. I don't think it's for everyone, no way. Most people shouldn't have them until 10 weeks as they cannot offer this stable environment to make the best of the fear period these dogs go through.
2) & yet some trainers, behavourists & vets get them early themselves because they can use the issues found to their advantage. As I said, it's not for the inexperienced & not for all breeds/dogs as it can be seen as much more beneficial in working dogs.. I am merely saying it is not entirely immoral to allow them to go that early.
3) As I have said, my puppy picked up on a LOT more when she was 8 weeks old because she was so clingy rather than when she was 10 weeks old. I know this to be a fact with my dog & I believe it when I have heard other owners say that at seven weeks old, they notice even more of a clinginess in their dogs that have improved their trainability as I trained my dog three different things within a week after bringing her home with no food insentive. That's the difference it makes!
4) She's said the dog has only had two litters. No where does it say the dam's age. You can't assume she's trying to make money in the long run or from that one litter. Obviously, as would any breeder, she may have meant it to mean she would not like to make a loss on the litter as no breeder wants to lose money. I think things could have been taken out of context, what BYB would ADMIT to doing it for solely the money?
5) Why don't you use waiting lists & deposits? Surely a breeder should know that people want the puppies before they are born else they are being immoral! Plus, deposits ensure that the puppy that is born that you want won't be sold to some one who offers more. How can these things be bad things? Yes, the internet offers a lot of places that sell puppies by post & so on but it is also useful to advertise these puppies & so on. How have people found the breeders for the dogs they have now? Newspaper? Web? Word of mouth? What?
6) Heath checks were never mentioned in the original post so I cannot comment on this breeder's involvement in this & resent that people are jumping to conclusions. I have a non-registered dog & I don't think anything of that as at the end of the day, a registered dog could just as easily be a "sham". Who checks that the parents are who the breeder says they are?

I don't use waiting lists because I know many good breeders in the area and we help direct people to those with pups. This way the people get their pup and the breeder gets a good home for their pup. I haven't had a problem homing pups, even when I've kept them for "6 MONTHS".

I don't want a clingy dog-- I want one that is securely attached.

She said that THIS was THIS girls second litter-- IT is basic economics-- to make money by selling for less you have to sell MORE or skimp on their care.

loveisokay
15th July 2007, 09:26 PM
I don't use waiting lists because I know many good breeders in the area and we help direct people to those with pups. This way the people get their pup and the breeder gets a good home for their pup. I haven't had a problem homing pups, even when I've kept them for "6 MONTHS".

I don't want a clingy dog-- I want one that is securely attached.

She said that THIS was THIS girls second litter-- IT is basic economics-- to make money by selling for less you have to sell MORE or skimp on their care.



Do the breeders have lists of contacts to find homes for these dogs? I bet they do..

Yeah, my dog isn't clingy. She went though a clingy stage, that's what I said. I took advantage of this stage to teach her things that she hasn't forgotten & doesn't even have to think about doing as she has it imbedded into her. That's what I actually said about that stage..

& as I said last time, she might want to have a little bit of a profit on that one litter. There is no point assuming anything as you don't know the facts. If that dam was very young & on her second litter, I'd be inclined to agree but we don't know that & it could even be the dam's last litter. You just don't know. That's my point.

I'm going to shut up now as clearly my opinions regarding the OP making sure herself by asking more questions rather than running away is not what people want to hear.

WoodHaven
15th July 2007, 09:26 PM
Sorry, I am not defending anyone & am sorry you think I am. I just expect better of people when I think they should ask all the questions they can & know all they can before saying she is a "type". No one has heard anything about health testing, how can she be a "type" before knowing that? No one knows how old the dam is, how can that be a "type"?

Sorry, I just refuse to jump to unnecessary conclusions about someone when there is a possibility they are not doing the breed any harm. That's the sort of person I am..

Selling living things to make money-- that aren't registered with the main registering body in this country isn't jumping. We just tried to stop someone last spring from buying a discounted cavalier pup-- it didn't work out and the breeder wanted NOTHING to do with the pup. As soon as the money was in her hands, she didn't give a royal damn about that pup.

Back yard breeder HARM the breed. Look at Dalmations, look at cocker spaniels-- back yard breeder can do a lot of harm.

Nancy
15th July 2007, 09:27 PM
Sorry, I am not defending anyone & am sorry you think I am. I just expect better of people when I think they should ask all the questions they can & know all they can before saying she is a "type". No one has heard anything about health testing, how can she be a "type" before knowing that? No one knows how old the dam is, how can that be a "type"?

Sorry, I just refuse to jump to unnecessary conclusions about someone when there is a possibility they are not doing the breed any harm. That's the sort of person I am..

You clearly have no idea what we all here in US know about a breeder from Iowa, who has lots of litters, lots of breeds, registers in crap registries, sells on the internet. THIS IS A BACKYARD BREEDER. I guarantee you she doesn't have the slightest IDEA of what certified health testing is. It's a package deal/cheaper puppy/worthless registry/ higher potential for health and absoutely for socialization problems. It's incredible to me that you would attempt to give this woman the benefit of the doubt....why in world would anyone choose to breed like that unless they didn't care?

Great point Sandy....about the person who went for price , couldn't keep the puppy , and the breeder didn't care. In fact, the breeder was very similar in desciption, it could be the same one for all we know. If the buyer had gone to a good breeder, they take the dog back, no questions asked, because they do care.

loveisokay
15th July 2007, 09:34 PM
You clearly have no idea what we all here in US know about a breeder from Iowa, who has lots of litters, lots of breeds, registers in crap registries, sells on the internet. THIS IS A BACKYARD BREEDER. I guarantee you she doesn't have the slightest IDEA of what certified health testing is. It's a package deal/cheaper puppy/worthless registry/ higher potential for health and absoutely for socialization problems. It's incredible to me that you would attempt to give this woman the benefit of the doubt....why in world would anyone choose to breed like that unless they didn't care?

Great point Sandy....about the person who went for price , couldn't keep the puppy , and the breeder didn't care. In fact, the breeder was very similar in desciption, it could be the same one for all we know. If the buyer had gone to a good breeder, they take the dog back, no questions asked, because they do care.

Because I don't classify two litters a lot until I hear how old the dam is & three breeds, to me, isn't unmanagable/too much. Maybe I don't know about "reputations" in Iowa or wherever, maybe I readily give the benefit of the doubt, but I don't judge until I know everything & I don't. Yes, she bothered to register the puppies with a dodgy register - I agree on that one point, that is all I know that I can attest to being a bad thing. You don't KNOW this person wouldn't take the puppy back. I feel that the person would be a lot better off asking this woman all these questions & coming to the conclusion (as bad as it looks to both of us) her self rather than being made to feel awful & not asking questions when this little old lady may care a great deal about these puppies. Why is it wrong to suggest that she should ask the lady more questions to see for herself, is what I want to know!

Cathy Moon
15th July 2007, 09:34 PM
I personally wouldn't consider buying a cavalier puppy from a breeder unless the breeder was a hobby[show] breeder and the cav's pedigree had a number of champions in 3 prior generations, including the sire. I would also want to know the breeder(s) regularly health tested/screened the sire and dam and followed breeding protocols. I would want to know the breeder was respected and recommended by other hobby breeders belonging to AKC or CKCS-USA.

If I was adopting a rescue cavalier, I wouldn't have those requirements.

Another scenario would be if I was buying or adopting a cavalier with a known health problem from a hobby breeder who responsibly removed or retired the cavalier from their breeding program. In this case I would still expect to have AKC (or CKCS-USA) registration papers and all of the cav's health records.

I would not buy a cavalier puppy from a breeder whose goal is to produce pets, implying a lack of concern for properly registering, health testing, and showing (conformation of) their cavalier breeding stock. This type of activity is detrimental to the cavalier breed!

loveisokay
15th July 2007, 09:39 PM
Selling living things to make money-- that aren't registered with the main registering body in this country isn't jumping. We just tried to stop someone last spring from buying a discounted cavalier pup-- it didn't work out and the breeder wanted NOTHING to do with the pup. As soon as the money was in her hands, she didn't give a royal damn about that pup.

Back yard breeder HARM the breed. Look at Dalmations, look at cocker spaniels-- back yard breeder can do a lot of harm.

*bangs head on the wall*

I know all about backyard breeders, I know that they do it to make money, I know that they don't take puppies back, I know that they cause most of the issues breeds have but my point is we know very very little about this breeder aside from the selective amount the poster thought to say - it is clear to me that this OP was concerned about making a mistake & is more likely to post about the things that worried her than those that didn't. You do not know for a fact this is a BYB & I resent anyone saying anything about any single person on this planet unless they know 110% that they are what they say they are. I admit, I am inclined to see that this person could be, but I don't know & think that it would do the OP far more good to find out for themselves what the facts are.

This is not a bad thing at all to do!

Nancy
15th July 2007, 09:45 PM
Find me a decent breeder who places puppies at 7 weeks? who will spin a story about how much they love their puppies, and tell you anything you want to hear, knowing it isn't worth anything after the sale. And please spare me the "you don't know" because I do know and it breaks my heart to see puppies born in less than ideal conditions and from dogs that probably should never have been bred. As I said, red flags galore.

sallymum
15th July 2007, 09:47 PM
I agree with Nancy. Have u loveisok had any experience of these dogs. If so i dont think u would be saying what u are.

loveisokay
15th July 2007, 09:53 PM
I have heard the spiel of BYB, yes. I know the difference & I am sure you "know" the implications of puppies from these breeders but my point of knowing was based on knowing about this breeder & her policies on health checks & quantity of litters, which you don't, unless you have had puppies in rescues because of this particular woman otherwise


I agree with Nancy. Have u loveisok had any experience of these dogs. If so i dont think u would be saying what u are.

this comment would also be applicable to yourselves.

& yes I have experience of puppies being homed early as my previous Cavalier was homed early & yes it was from a reputable breeder that did rigourous health checked & had each puppy thoroughly checked before homing, had very strigent home checks, showed her dogs, rescued dogs of all ages no matter if bred by her or not & insisted that if we no longer could cope with him to bring him back to her. I don't know what proof you could possibly need on top of this. He was KC registered, with the whole package of six months free insurance & so on. Both his parents were at the breeders' home & we saw him at an early age. His early age at being homed to us was not detrimental whatsoever as he turned out to be a lovely well mannered & sweet boy!

WoodHaven
15th July 2007, 10:03 PM
"Helps with head banging :eek:-- just kidding:flwr:"

How many red flags have to appear before someone IS a byb??? 1,2, 10???

sallymum
15th July 2007, 10:08 PM
I didnt think this was about the breeder that u got ur cAV from. this is about someone that is selling pups that from what we were told sounds like she is a BYB. Yes u are right if i hadnt got into resue yes i would be ignorant to all this but the fact is i am now involved as is a lot of people on this board and so we will do our best to get people who are interested in cavs to go to reptuable breeders.

Justine
15th July 2007, 10:15 PM
We took alfs home at 7 weeks,well we have had real problems with his behavior and interacting with other dogs,he has know idea how to behave.i dont know wether its him or he was just to young.i suppose we will never know.We have just bought another pup and he wont be comung home till he is at 9 to 10 weeks.We paid alot more mony this this fella but we didnt care,i didnt even ask the price till we were happy ,all are qestions were answered and the breeder i felt was fantastic and he knew his stuff.

Holly
15th July 2007, 10:28 PM
I know I have told this story before.... a few years ago I knew I wanted a Cavalier puppy--unfortunately, I didnt know a lot about the breed and didnt even know enough to properly do my homewrok. I found a Cavalier breeder in the newsaper (huge mistake, I now know!). I spoke with the man and he was so nice and charming---I had such a great feeling about this and was so excited to get a puppy! I went there the next day and he brought up a basket full of the most adorable puppies from the basement (now I know that this was a warning sign!!) and went on and on about how his mom bred them overseas and how his made them less likely to have health problems, on and on he went---so very convincing and charismatic! I went home with the tiniest, most adorable puppy and named him Charlie...

Well, that night the problems began... I awoke in the middle of the night to a puppy gasping for air and coughing violently to the point where it was obvious that he was in major distress! I rushed hm to the emergency vet at 2 in the morning to find out that this 8-week old puppy had a Grade 5 heart murmur. I was devastated. They sent me home with medicines that they said might help and the name of a cardiologist who I needed to make an appointment with. I called the breeder and he wanted me to bring the puppy back to him and kept insisting that there was nothing wrong with the puppy. By this point of course I was completely attached and couldnt bring myself to do that.

The next few days were absolute hell as I watched this adorable puppy gasping to breathe and fighting a losing battle. The breeder called me swearing at me, yelling at me, and threatening me to bring the puppy back to him. It was actually very scary to me as I had to fill out paperwork that had my home address on it. I refused to bring the puppy back as I didnt know what would lay in store for him. I am assuming he wanted the puppy back because he didnt want the story to get out that he had sold a sick puppy. I ended up at the vet and emergency vet 4 times over the next 4 days.

About 4 days after I got this puppy, we were back at the emergency vet yet again, as he was gasping and vomiting this time. He had to be put to sleep as there was nothing left that they could do. The puppy was too small and too young to go through this anymore.

It was a heartbreaking, frightening experience to have gone through. The breeder, after some very nasty phone calls, refunded me the cost of the puppy, but not the vet bills--which were quite high, since this happened several timesin the middle of the night so I had to go to the ER. I lived alone at the time, and it was horrible to go throughthis experience alone. I had to take time off work to care for this puppy and I went through hell with this poor baby.

After that, I did my home work and found an amazing breeder and now I have sweet Oliver!

I would hate for anyone to go though what I went through with a backyard breeder or whatever he was...please reconsider. In the midst of all this, I contacted reputable breeders and the parent club, who advised me that the yall knew about thisman and had heard other horror stories. They said that it was the unsuspecting public (me) who kept this man in business.

Trust me, the man seemed wonderful---caring and so concerned about his puppies...

Holly
15th July 2007, 10:36 PM
And, I forgot to mention that they weren't akc registered---it was bogus registries that I have never heard of again. And of course this man wasnt listed on any of the CKCS parent websites.

Sorry for such a long post---I just feel strongly about this as I know the hell I went through and I dont want anyone else to go through that!

Justine
15th July 2007, 10:41 PM
Well that was a sad story,its a hard lesson to learn,we have been so lucky alls well at the this moment in time,hearts good.But the vet said we and alfs got lucky.Its his behaviour.I do remember choosing one of his brothers,they snatched him off me and said,that one will be an extra 50 euro,because he is going to be a show dog,but there is know way of knowing at 7 weeks.Anyway i said no and we took alfs home.GREED.

Mary
15th July 2007, 10:57 PM
Thank you for sharing your story Holly. It pretty much says it all. I am sorry you had to go through that. We do the best we can sometimes with what we know and when we know better we do better.

WoodHaven
15th July 2007, 10:59 PM
Oh Holly, I am so sorry you went through all that. And without any support. That poor pup.
I hear stories like this all the time. They byb and brokers learn what to say-- they have to be personable or no one would trust them.
One of the last calls I got was a man in Texas ( and I live in Illinois ) who bought a pup from an online breeder. The pup was 9 months old and had severe hip displasia. He wanted to know what he could do. His choices were limited at that time.

Nancy
15th July 2007, 11:02 PM
And sometimes if you ask too many questions, then they also get nasty. They can say anything they want, because there is very little you can do after the fact. That's why talking to them and asking questions is a useless effort. Even the references they give are suspect...why would they give a bad one? You have to go with someone who has demonstrated they are doing the best they can , and have the documents to back it up.

WoodHaven
15th July 2007, 11:13 PM
We took alfs home at 7 weeks,well we have had real problems with his behavior and interacting with other dogs,he has know idea how to behave.i dont know wether its him or he was just to young.i suppose we will never know.We have just bought another pup and he wont be comung home till he is at 9 to 10 weeks.We paid alot more mony this this fella but we didnt care,i didnt even ask the price till we were happy ,all are qestions were answered and the breeder i felt was fantastic and he knew his stuff.

Justine-- I didn't realize you'd had such troubles with your lil guy. I really hope this second pup is a healthy, happy one.

Karlin
15th July 2007, 11:31 PM
Because I have written on the situation with Irish cavaliers from puppy millers (I am a journalist; the story is in the Library section on puppy mills/farms/BYBs) I get a lot of response from North Americans who've ended up with very tragic stories of puppies bought from the nicest people possible who insisted their cavaliers, because they come from 'champion Irish/British stock' have none of the health issues other cavaliers might have, etc etc... I had so many of these stories, I actually filed a formal brief to the Irish government when it solicited public comment on introducing regulations to try and control this vile industry of BYBs and puppy farmers/millers (names changed and nothing identifiable in the case studies of course).

And then there is this woman:

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=13258

who has threatened me with legal action for over two years simply for postng publicly available articles about her which were a matter of public record and totally legal. I know people who went to see her cavaliers and thought she was the most knowledgeable professional show breeder who really cared about them getting a cheaper puppy so they too could enjoy cavaliers and avoid 'those snotty show breeders'. Well, she was the subject of a class action lawsuit, and has been wearing an alarmed ankle bracelet after her conviction in federal court by the DOJ.

Then there's the man mentioned in the Dateline video:

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=17266

Also known for being so well informed, nice and professional to some buyers. The Dateline segment says it all.

People here get upset about certain breeders because we know how exploited this particular breed is and how well some of these evil (at best, grossly, willfully ignorant) people dupe people into believing they really care about you, the buyer, and enabling you to get a lower cost puppy.

For many of us, it does become a passion to try to shut these people down, and keep more people and more cavaliers going through such tragedies. :mad: It's very easy to make a small fortune and offer cut price puppies if you don't do basic health tests or vet care, buy cheap puppy mill puppies off other puppy millers and BYBs as your breeding stock, and just pay $15 to register your puppies with the bogus registries. :mad:

*Pauline*
16th July 2007, 12:20 AM
I find it very concerning that a breeder would let you have a puppy as young as 7 weeks. Most insist they are at least 9 weeks. Some won't let them go until 10-12 weeks.

I agree, there is no way around this, a puppy needs its mum longer than 7 weeks. I had mine just after 12 weeks.

The breeder may be a nice lady and have all good intentions. But it doesn't sound like she has the pups best interests at heart and because of Cavaliers health problems, I'd go elsewhere before you get attached.

I know it must sound like we are all against your plans. Rest assured we are all just so worried you'll make the wrong decision. After all, you did have your doubts in the first place. A little phrase I use is, "If in doubt, leave it out!".

Caraline
16th July 2007, 03:58 AM
Wow this thread sure has lit up :razz:

Ok, to the original post....

Brika, you sound like a really nice person and I know that the responses here have probably upset you, but I must join the bandwaggon & suggest you request your money back and steer very well clear of this breeder. There are too many alarm bells warning you here...


We found her online

Alarm bell #1 Reputable breeders do not sell online


We can pick her up at 7 weeks

Alarm bell #2 I'd be worried about a breeder that would let a puppy go at 7 weeks. We now know that those first 8 weeks with their mumma & litter mates is extremely important for the social wellbeing of the puppy.


but I'm worried because

Alarm bell #3 - if you are worried, then you probably have reason to be. Listen to your gut!


she doesn't register with AKC

Alarm bell #4 Why not?


She says her husband is a neat freak and lysols daily

Alarm bell #5. I wonder why she felt it important to bring up something that is suggestive of a mental disorder?


she decorates for Christmas in their kennels

Alarm bell #6. Did she tell you this to make up for the other shortfalls? Sounds a bit freaky to me anyway.


The price was much cheaper than anyone else we've checked with

Alarm bell #7. You get what you pay for.


she assured me that she does want to make money but isn't in it FOR the money.

Alarm bell #8 Hmmmm that's a bit like nodding you head & at the same time saying no.


She doesn't show her dogs, but breeds three other breeds as well.

Alarm bell #9. Sounds a bit puppy-millish to me.


What is your advice on our transaction?

Pull out of the deal Brika. There are a lot of reputable breeders around. The most in-expensive part of dog ownership is the actual purchase of the dog. It is everything else that follows that will rip a hole in your pocket, and in most cases the cheaper the dog, the bigger the overall hole in your pocket. None of this will hurt nearly as much as the hole that will be ripped in your heart if you get a dog with a bag load of health issues. There was no mention of health checks. You could be looking at up to 12 years of heartache for you & your family if it all goes downhill.

Even if you manage to get a healthy puppy from this breeder, your purchase will be supporting a breeder that is unlikely an ethical one. By buying from her, you are condoning her actions. Get your money back. Stick around on the forum here and learn what to look out for in an ethical breeder. :hug:

Brika
16th July 2007, 04:08 AM
SO, now what?

I emailed her and asked some more questions. I asked about health problems in the parents. Mom is 3 and dad is 4. She says they aren't AKC because the mom wasn't registered when she bought her and that when they met the dad he wasn't either. That she didn't care because they were older and she was in love with them... so she took them home. They are registered with APR and ACA and since they were both not AKC she thought they were a good pair.

She also said... "it sounds like you are changing your mind about the puppy"...

I'm really torn what to do here. I paid the deposit... and we've begun to plan for her arrival... (the 7 week thing was ME... the breeder is 10 hour drive for us... on the 7th week we'll be 5 hours closer for a wedding and I THOUGHT it would be better to GO AND GET her while we were closer... our labs were taken home at 7 weeks... with great results... I didn't think it was a problem... she did SAY that she would only release her if all was well)

I don't want to lose my deposit... I also really want to have a new family member... and I ALSO totally don't want a sick and problem full dog!

We've seen many pups selling for around $900 in our area... recommended by our local vet... but they were Tri and rubies... and we wanted Blenheim... I thought this was the perfect match.

I know that all of you (well almost! Thanks to you who know that I'm trying to get more information here...) say run away... but I'm trying to figure out how to determine if I CAN at this point.

How do I find another dog that is from a "good breeder" seems like ALL dogs in our neck of the woods are "BAD" if I followed your advice.

How do I get back my PAYPAL deposit... how do I tell her I've changed my mind because I don't think she's doing a "good Job"... she does have my name, number and address... how do I find another puppy that we can afford... (now I sound cheap and unwilling to pay for a good dog...) I guess I just want you all to say that I should ask these questions.... (insert questions here) and then tabulate the results and BINGO... KEEP THE DEAL... or GET AWAY FROM IT !!


But this is an online community... and I realize that you are all passionate about your dogs and the breed. I'm just going to have to muddle through on my own. At this point... I think we'll make the trip and check it out for ourselves in person. Maybe this will give me the peace of mind I need... or it will open my eyes to walk away.

Super Princess
16th July 2007, 04:15 AM
this really has lit up :)
and i admit i have not read all the posts..but the first two pages.


FIRST i want to say..to the original poste.r.i REALLY hope you dont get frightend off by anyone on this board.
everyone here are amazing people, and i know that tehy all want the best for you .
its so exciteing to be part of a board with people who go through the same things you do wiht your pup..people who get excited to hear the silly little stories that NO ONE ELSE will care about..
so please..dont run off

SECOND when we found oliver, we found our breeder online. she had no website but an email address. we emaild her and asked a bunch of questions..and then arranged to meet her at her house to meet the parents of ollie and meet with our breeder. and she met with us.
once we went home..and desided we wanted to go with her..we put a deposit down and waited..a really long time.(ok it wasnt THAT long but common when ur waiting for your puppy...well you all know)
so oliver was born..she called us up and gave us a few colours to choose from.
tehre was only one male tri..and we took him.
we picked him up 8 weeks later.(and cKC registerd)

third: before i read any of the posts after your origional..my stomach got in knots.
you seem so excited about bring such a baby into your life, but even you see the worries.
the people on this board..especially karlin are so experianced..please listen to them. try and get your deposit back.
i know its a heart breaking decision..but defently go for osmeone else. peoplr on here would love to help you find a great breeder.

best wishes..keep us p osted

Super Princess
16th July 2007, 04:20 AM
we posted same time :D

defently make a trip to go see her.
have a list of specific questions to ask her.
but my advice..is you and your husbadn should be prepared to ask for your deposit back when you do visit her.

honestly i dont know what id say to get it back..(ha id prolly lie.. say that at this point some financial difficluties have come up and i am unable to get a pup) but seriosly dont take my advice on that one.. someone else would ahve a much better answer. lol

Brika
16th July 2007, 04:21 AM
this really has lit up :)
and i admit i have not read all the posts..but the first two pages.


FIRST i want to say..to the original poste.r.i REALLY hope you dont get frightend off by anyone on this board.
everyone here are amazing people, and i know that tehy all want the best for you .
its so exciteing to be part of a board with people who go through the same things you do wiht your pup..people who get excited to hear the silly little stories that NO ONE ELSE will care about..
so please..dont run off

best wishes..keep us p osted


I'm still undecided... which I know will come as a surprise to you all... with your advice. BUT I did talk with her and I listed my CONCERNS not all the things I was impressed with.

AND, if we do still take the dog... then I'm not sure I'll be welcomed back here....


Anyhow. Does anyone have any advice about how to get out of this situation and into antother one? A reputable one??

Caraline
16th July 2007, 04:24 AM
I notice we posted about the same time Brika. I think I was posting when you were posting. My main comments are above your last post.

Of the last post you made:


I emailed her and asked some more questions. I asked about health problems in the parents. Mom is 3 and dad is 4. She says they aren't AKC because the mom wasn't registered when she bought her and that when they met the dad he wasn't either.

The important part about this is that there is no history whatsoever. You can't even been sure that the sire & dam were/are full CKCS, and of course the most important thing is that there is no health records along the ancestral path that you can be sure of.


That she didn't care because they were older and she was in love with them... so she took them home. They are registered with APR and ACA and since they were both not AKC she thought they were a good pair.

She may be well meaning but she clearly hasn't a clue about the important issues of breeding and this is a huge worry.


She also said... "it sounds like you are changing your mind about the puppy"...

We can only live in hope!


we've begun to plan for her arrival... (the 7 week thing was ME... the breeder is 10 hour drive for us... on the 7th week we'll be 5 hours closer for a wedding and I THOUGHT it would be better to GO AND GET her while we were closer...

You've heard the quote "act in haste & repent in leisure"?


I don't want to lose my deposit...

She should give it back to you. How much was the deposit (no you don't have to tell us that). But think of this.... is that $ that you paid worth maybe 12 years of heartache & even the doubts that you are now experiencing?


I also really want to have a new family member... and I ALSO totally don't want a sick and problem full dog!

And you can have that by taking your time & buying from a reputable breeder.


We've seen many pups selling for around $900 in our area... recommended by our local vet... but they were Tri and rubies... and we wanted Blenheim... I thought this was the perfect match.

Colour is THE LEAST important thing to worry about.


how do I tell her I've changed my mind because I don't think she's doing a "good Job"

Honesty is always the best way. You simply tell her you are concerned because of (insert a list from our posts here) and point them out.

Finally... this may sound harsh, but if you can't afford the full going price of a CKCS, now then you will never be able to afford the ongoing expenses associated with keeping that dog healthy & happy.

Be strong!

Brika
16th July 2007, 04:31 AM
Finally... this may sound harsh, but if you can't afford the full going price of a CKCS, now then you will never be able to afford the ongoing expenses associated with keeping that dog healthy & happy.

Be strong!



Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me that if I can't afford to pay upwards of $2000.00 for a DOG then I can't keep one happy and healthy? Hello, do ALL OF YOU Cav owners spend money like 2000$ in each and every vet bill?

Sound harsh? No, it was harsh.

WoodHaven
16th July 2007, 04:32 AM
I am sure you'll be welcome here. We aren't snobs-- we just don't want people to be hurt. We've seen it too often NOT to say something. Would I buy from such a person, no. But I've placed many rescues that have brought joy to their owners..

Brika
16th July 2007, 04:33 AM
Does anyone have any information about the beeder I'm talking about? I'm not sure if I can link the web site here... or list her name... but maybe you could email me and I'd let you know????

WoodHaven
16th July 2007, 04:36 AM
Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me that if I can't afford to pay upwards of $2000.00 for a DOG then I can't keep one happy and healthy? Hello, do ALL OF YOU Cav owners spend money like 2000$ in each and every vet bill?

Sound harsh? No, it was harsh.

The people I bought my cavaliers from would give me my purchase price BACK if their pups had problems like bad hips, knees, hearts, sm etc... A byb would say (at best) we will trade you pups for another one.

Yes, bad health issues can cost a lot more than 2000 USD.

Brika
16th July 2007, 04:39 AM
The people I bought my cavaliers from would give me my purchase price BACK if their pups had problems like bad hips, knees, hearts, sm etc... A byb would say (at best) we will trade you pups for another one.

Yes, bad health issues can cost a lot more than 2000 USD.


Well OF COURSE they can! I'm simply asking the question... do you all have money in the bank to PAY outright for every possible health problem that might maybe could happen to your cav????

Seriously???

And if we couldn't... we aren't worthy owners?

Caraline
16th July 2007, 04:39 AM
Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me that if I can't afford to pay upwards of $2000.00 for a DOG then I can't keep one happy and healthy? Hello, do ALL OF YOU Cav owners spend money like 2000$ in each and every vet bill?

Oh nobody is suggesting that each & every vet bill will cost you $2000. It is the overall annual costs that mount up and unfortunately the CKCS is a breed that often gets to frequent the vets on a more regular basis than other breeds.

Brika, please don't think we are attacking you. We aren't! We are simply trying to steer you away from a disasterous purchase. Whatever you decide.... good luck & peace to you. :flwr:

Brika
16th July 2007, 04:40 AM
Does anyone have any information about the beeder I'm talking about? I'm not sure if I can link the web site here... or list her name... but maybe you could email me and I'd let you know????


Anyone? :luv:

WoodHaven
16th July 2007, 04:41 AM
Does anyone have any information about the beeder I'm talking about? I'm not sure if I can link the web site here... or list her name... but maybe you could email me and I'd let you know????

You can PM almost any of us. I have a list of bad and worse breeders from other buyers. One meets investigators at the door with a shot gun another relocated to Idaho. One is in Long Island-- one broker is in Illinois. They are all over and they are successful.

Cathy T
16th July 2007, 04:45 AM
I am going to post once and only once. And then I'm not going to read this thread anymore. I am banging my head against a wall and shaking it at the same time. Before I got past "internet" and "7 weeks" I knew this was going to be trouble. We recently had a gal who purchased a puppy against sage advice from experienced dog owners and serious breeders. Shortly thereafter she was ready to find the dog a new home. Read Holly's story again. Read Justine's story again. This is not a good situation in any way, shape or form. If you have to give up your deposit...so be it. You will save yourself tons of money in the long run. Let me tell you about the month from he** with my two. I paid full going price and purchased from a reputable breeder (still have a great relationship with her and was refunded my money on both of my dogs) we had knee surgery and 3 weeks later cancer surgery on my dogs to the tune of $5,000!! Was I able to afford it? Not really. Luckily I had pet insurance to help pay part of the cost and the money refunded from my breeder. Cavaliers are wonderful great dogs...but they are not cheap. They are not cheap to purchase and they are not cheap to maintain. Most of the health issues we deal with in this breed are not minor health issues....they are deadly serious and expensive issues.

Use your head and not your heart on this one. This just flat out is not a good purchase. Done, not saying anything else.;)

Super Princess
16th July 2007, 04:50 AM
defently not trying to attack you, we're trying to help you.

your right, we dont' know anything about this breeder then what you have told us.
and that sent alarm bells off in may peoples heads. people experianced with so called 'bad breeders'
not only did it send alarm bells off in our heads but yours too..as you sated in your first post.


not every vet bill will toatla 2000 dollars, but it can. and IF you get a dog from an inexperianced breeder with dogs that she cant proove their background in health..you are almost gurenteed (soryr spelling) more expensive vet bills.

WoodHaven
16th July 2007, 04:51 AM
Well OF COURSE they can! I'm simply asking the question... do you all have money in the bank to PAY outright for every possible health problem that might maybe could happen to your cav????

Seriously???

And if we couldn't... we aren't worthy owners?

Define everything, some health issues CAN'T be fixed.

Cathy Moon
16th July 2007, 05:01 AM
Does anyone have any information about the beeder I'm talking about? I'm not sure if I can link the web site here... or list her name... but maybe you could email me and I'd let you know????
Brika, you are welcome to Private Message any of us, but please don't post her name, her website, or her kennel name on this forum, or she might possibly have a libel case.

Brika
16th July 2007, 05:07 AM
I do realize that not every health problem can be fixed. But really... is anything a sure thing?

People have children with less thought than EVEN I have given to the health of this puppy.

I came here to hear what you all thought. And I figured it would be the worst. It's hard to hear it because we thought we had found the perfect match for us. I realize that you are all superior owners... you have the knowledge, and experience that I as a newbie in the world of cav's do not. That is why I posted. I just think maybe it goes a bit far at times... and I want to know how possible is it that I have an okay, pet quality dog here... vs. a deathly ill tragic case of bad breeding.

I'm kinda holding my tail between my legs... :) because I think some of what I said might have been taken as all negative comments, there was a lot of good things about this dog and her breeder as well.

Now, I have to sit and think, talk to my husband, ask some more questions... etc.

Thanks to all of you for being kind and caring about your dogs and the breed. I hope to join you soon.

(please let me know if you have any more advice....)

Moviedust
16th July 2007, 05:07 AM
Well OF COURSE they can! I'm simply asking the question... do you all have money in the bank to PAY outright for every possible health problem that might maybe could happen to your cav????

Seriously???

And if we couldn't... we aren't worthy owners?

No, we don't have money in the bank to pay outright; at least not all of us. However, a lot of us, especially those with poorly bred cavaliers--myself included--invest in pet insurance because we know we probably WILL have vet bills that we won't be able to afford. Dog insurance that covers congenital defects (such as SM or MVD) can run anywhere from 40 to 70 dollars a month, depending on your policy. (Search on "insurance" on the boards, and you'll find a ton of information.)

You raise the issue of "worthy" owners, but it isn't about worthiness. It's about responsibility. If you have a dog that you can not afford for whatever reason (with any breed), you have the responsibility of surrendering it to rescue or rehoming it with people who can and will care for it. Of course, there's also the euthanasia issue; could you put a 1 year old dog to sleep because you can't afford surgery on both its knees?? All three options are unbearable when you DO love your dog tremendously but know you can't properly care for it.

Many people on the board who have well-breed cavaliers spent YEARS researching and saving. Some have been on waiting lists for their chosen breeder for a year or more. If you opt to NOT get a pup from this breeder, you will have a lot of work ahead of you if you want a well-bred cavalier.

Whatever your decision--to keep this breeder or to change your mind and look for something better--please stay with the board. You'll need help either way--we all do, which is why we are here!--and we can help. You aren't the first person to have found yourself in this situation, and if you stay on the boards, you'll soon see you aren't the last.

Brika
16th July 2007, 05:10 AM
I did PM two of you...

AT
16th July 2007, 09:26 AM
regarding paypal if you tell paypal ( through their reselution center) you have not received the " item" they will give you your money back.

loveisokay
16th July 2007, 10:11 AM
To the OP: please don't feel that people are being elitist towards you about their favourite breed, I feel that a lot of people on here are getting carried away & thinking this woman is a witch to their cause. She may possibly be, you cannot attest to the state of her kennels or her health checks, but she may also just merely produce okay puppies rather than the radically badly bred dogs. Good luck to you anyway & I hope you have heard enough to know what to ask this time or next to get the right dog for you.


How many red flags have to appear before someone IS a byb??? 1,2, 10???

Finally, a note worthy comment. No one knows the answer & it is up to each new owner to decide what they are comfortable with. I think the comment about the OP wondering if a pet-bred dog isn't that bad is also noteworthy - I believe most are making out that this woman is no better than a puppy farmer. Yes, all these tales of really awfully bred dogs with all sorts of conditions due to bad breeding are genuinely awful but there are middle of the road breeders between full on BYB & reputable breeders. How many puppies have these awful conditions when bred by those that are reputable? It is possible & she only might save money in the long run. People are comfortable with different things..


I didnt think this was about the breeder that u got ur cAV from. this is about someone that is selling pups that from what we were told sounds like she is a BYB. Yes u are right if i hadnt got into resue yes i would be ignorant to all this but the fact is i am now involved as is a lot of people on this board and so we will do our best to get people who are interested in cavs to go to reptuable breeders.

I believe I was asked what "reputable breeder" lets their puppies go early & that was the response to it.

Nancy
16th July 2007, 01:10 PM
I suggested a good way to handle this in a previous post...her answers to your questions do nothing to dispel any of the conclusions we've( except one poster) already reached. I saw the website and I'm convinced we are correct. If you make this about YOUR personal life that would affect the puppy she cares about, and that it is NOT a good time to get any puppy, she shouldn't have any reason not to refund . Besides, paying with paypal protects you....you will not have received your goods, and they have a protection plan.

You will absolutely be welcomed back if you go ahead with this puppy. But why someone would go ahead and get a puppy at 7 weeks is beyond my comprehension give all that everyone has written. Just to get a puppy because it's convenient then, is not a good reason, this is a living being.

Karlin
16th July 2007, 01:51 PM
Seven weeks is actually below the age at which it is legal to sell a puppy in many (at least 15) US states, as well as in Europe. The reason why is that they are simply too young to be properly socialised and way too young to be shipped (airlines won't carry a puppy under eight weeks). Because they are removed from mother and siblings right in the middle of an important couple of weeks in their social and behavioural development, such puppies often have behaviour problems from incessant biting and barking to being overly pushy and constant anxiety. These are very well documented problems and reasons why so many puppies that come from poor breeders end up in shelters or pounds, as families find them too difficult to manage. That's why as some here have noted, a breeder willing to home under 8 weeks raises all sorts of red flags on that point alone. Most reputable cavalier breeders in the US do wait til puppies are 10-16 weeks to rehome so that they are well socialised, confident and more robust. :thmbsup:

More info: http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/our_pets_for_life_program/dog_behavior_tip_sheets/puppy_behavior_basics.html:

Puppies are usually weaned at six to seven weeks, but are still learning important skills as their mother gradually leaves them for longer periods of time. Ideally, puppies should stay with their littermates (or other "role-model" dogs) for at least 12 weeks.

Puppies separated from their littermates too early often fail to develop appropriate "social skills," such as learning how to send and receive signals, what an "inhibited bite" (acceptable mouthing pressure) means, how far to go in play-wrestling, and so forth. Play is important for puppies because it increases their physical coordination, social skills, and learning limits. By interacting with their mother and littermates, puppies explore the ranking process ("who's in charge") and also learn "how to be a dog."

Skills not acquired during the first eight weeks may be lost forever.

Incidentally it is very difficult to separate 'ok puppies' from 'radically badly bred' puppies -- to me there are just no differences if you actually see the breeding animals and see the resulting puppies. It is exploitation of a breed and individual dogs (who WILL suffer as a result) and of unwary buyers. If a breeder does no health testing, uses poor breeding animals, registers with the trash registries to dupe buyers... that is ALWAYS radically bad regardless of how the breeding animals are kept, because it will affect the health of every puppy she produces which in turn risks causing a tragedy for every buyer of her puppies. That is dishonest and disreputable. It isn't a matter of cost, elitism, or snobbery. It is solely an issue of whether someone merely breeds to make an easy buck while further allowing a breed to be destroyed and individual animals to suffer due to improper breeding practice, or whether one takes the responsibility for the entire breed's welfare, as well as each individual puppy's welfare, that any good breeder must.

Here is the REALITY of what this type of breeder produces: I just received a call about a young two year old ruby, most likely used for breeding purposes, with a heart murmur already. Tandie, the rescue girl I homed to Cecily, was being bred and had a serious (grade 4) murmur already at 3. Mattie's Mum's Sam, at age 6, was a stud dog and had a grade 5 murmur that his breeder happily told me about while noting he was 'still good for a few more years as a stud.' He was in such bad condition his heart was only beating about 25 beats per minute and the vet doubted he'd live more than a few weeks (happily, on good medication and with good care, the vet has been proven wrong). Six years should be his prime lf life, yet he is saddled with an illness of elderly dogs rife in the breed now and largely spread by breeders who do not cardiac test or follow the MVD protocol.

This is the mindset you are dealing with with this type of breeder, and these are the serious health conditions such dogs *routinely* suffer due to poor breeding practice.

mlc4140
16th July 2007, 05:08 PM
... OH, she does have an exam that she'll have done before we pick her up... some exam she says she does before they can cross state lines? 50$ extra.



This doesn't seem right. I live in Michigan and got my Cav from Ohio and was never told she had to have an exam to cross state lines. Please be careful. As Karlin said, I think I would ask for my deposit back. Hope all works out for you.

WoodHaven
16th July 2007, 05:18 PM
... OH, she does have an exam that she'll have done before we pick her up... some exam she says she does before they can cross state lines? 50$ extra.



This doesn't seem right. I live in Michigan and got my Cav from Ohio and was never told she had to have an exam to cross state lines. Please be careful. As Karlin said, I think I would ask for my deposit back. Hope all works out for you.

Now I am curious what "exam" is required to cross state lines. A health certificate to "fly" only cost me $25.00.

arasara
16th July 2007, 06:31 PM
Now I am curious what "exam" is required to cross state lines. A health certificate to "fly" only cost me $25.00.

Wow Sandy ~ You've got me beat - I paid $100 for 2 certificates :yikes

I don't know about any exam either. I crossed an entire country and only needed a health certificate to fly.

Cathy Moon
16th July 2007, 06:49 PM
When I bought India and Geordie, we drove out of state to get them. There was no 'exam' or paperwork needed to bring them into Ohio.

Sounds fishy to me...

BarbMazz
16th July 2007, 06:58 PM
;)
Well OF COURSE they can! I'm simply asking the question... do you all have money in the bank to PAY outright for every possible health problem that might maybe could happen to your cav????

Seriously???

And if we couldn't... we aren't worthy owners?

I don't think anyone is saying you're not worthy. Cavaliers have a high incidence of genetic/hereditary problems because the gene pool is extremely small. I personally decided to go to a responsible breeder after reading about Cavs for a LONG time, including all the health issues involved. I learned about just how a good breeder goes about deciding which dogs to breed together; the traits they are trying to breed into and away from. I knew I had to find a breeder that did all the recommended health testing. This testing has nothing to do with "vet checks"... like routine physicals. This testing is done by specialist like cardiologists, orthopods, opthamologists, neurologists.

I don't know if it's "most" of us here, but we purchase health insurance which covers hereditary problems. I have two Cavaliers, and the insurance for them is approximately $70USD per month. I guess that's my way of banking the money needed if a serious problem like Mitral Valve Disease (MVD) or Syringromyelia (SM) or deafness or luxating patellas happens. There are many stories in the SM and MVD area about dogs suffering from these terrible problems.

With MVD, a MAJORITY of Cavaliers will eventually have some Mitral Valve Disease. Dogs who are bred without regard to genetic issues cause this problem to increase in both frequency and severity. Most, if not all, reputable breeders study the genetics of their breeding stock to lessen the likelihood of MVD. It's a difficult thing to do. If your breeder got these dogs older and without lineage proof it will be impossible to tell if these pups will have heart problems... how early they will start, etc. My breeder provided to me documents that proved that she health tests her breeding dogs for MVD with CERF/OFA, which is a dog health testing organization that keeps a data bank on heart health, as well as a data bank on hip dysplasia and other genetic disorders in different pure bred dogs. These documents are available on the internet.... they include registration numbers that I can look up anytime to check on how my dog's parents heart health is doing. She has cardiology heart checks on her breeding dogs every year, and has them re-certified.

With SM (a neurological skull malformation.... the skull case is not large enough to hold the brain, which herniates out the back of the dog's skull, causing mild to severe neurological symptoms including nerve pain, screaming, obsessive scratching/biting) it is estimated that a majority of Cavaliers... up to, what?, 70-80% have some degree of the malformation. The treatments for this include a variety of medicines, and/or surgery that can extremely expensive... like up to $20,000 or more for lifetime care. Unfortunately, the only way to tell if a dog has SM at this point is an MRI, which in the USA costs a bundle... depending on area $1,200 - $2,500 usd.

So, serious and prevalent health issues in this breed is what the issue is in the opinions voiced here. Indiscriminate and callous breeding hurts this breed terribly because it undoes and reverses any progress that is made by the passionate people who are trying to scientifically breed to reduce these sorts of problems.

I suggest you read the areas that Karlin has set up about the health issues Cavaliers have.

If I were in your shoes, I would ask for my deposit back. Depending on the amount paid, I might even be willing to forfeit the deposit and NOT take the puppy.

I would read this site thoroughly, including the SM and MVD information. I would check the American CKCS site and get the contact list for breeders in your area, and contact them by phone. Go visit them. Learn to ask questions about health checks on their breeding stock. Some breeders will put you on a waiting list, some won't, but you will begin to feel better about the puppy choice you make. Some people here have waited a year for a puppy... that's plenty of time to save the money needed for the outright puppy purchase. Then when you do pick up your puppy (at 10 or 12 wks of age ;) ) you will know in your heart that you did all your homework and have a puppy that will have the best odds of being healthy, happy and easy to train. If you want to especially make sure your bank isn't broken in case a health problem DOES arise, purchase health insurance that covers genetic/hereditary conditions as soon as you bring the puppy home.

Good luck on your decision! Feel free to email or PM me if you'd like!

Nancy
16th July 2007, 07:43 PM
Great post, Barb. And even beyond that, I personally have a problem lining the pockets of people who don't care enough about our breed to take the best examples and try to replicate or improve that, instead of just any dog. And who knows the conditions these dogs live in. Anyone who seemingly has 5 breeds going on, and litters from them, and in variations that aren't recognized, ie, mini's , as well as hybrids, well, I found it very difficult to socialize and keep 1 litter healthy, socialized , and loved. I don't want to support their activities, no matter what, because I want all dogs to live in a home where they are a member of the family, and not a vehicle to support their income. In fact, I want backyard breeders to go away, and the best way I know how, is to encourage people not to buy from them.

ppotterfield
16th July 2007, 10:11 PM
Brika:

A lot has been said to you by a lot of folks on this list, mostly out of love for this breed and concern that you have a good experience with your first Cavalier. Whether you should proceed with the purchase of this puppy is a decision only you can make. Before you make the final decision you should get answers to a couple of questions related to the health clearances of the puppy's parents and grandparents. Information on the questions to ask can be found on this Board and on lists such as http://www.premiercavalierinfosite.com/. To protect you and to support good breeding you want to have the parents and the grandparents tested for eyes, knees and hips and most importantly for MVD (Mitral Valve Disease or heart problems). The breeder ought to provide you with not just her word but with the paper work showing the test results. It would be great to also have MRI testing for SM (Syringomyelia) but at the very least your breeder ought to know what SM is and be able to discuss it with you and provide you with a written personal statement (or better yet a statement from her Vet) that the parents, and if she can find out, the grandparents, at this time do not have symptoms of SM. If she can not provide you with this information, you may decide you want to do ahead and take the puppy anyway. If you do, do so with your eyes wide opened and recognize that you are at increased risk for serious health problems, your puppy may not be a purebreed Cavalier and, if you take her at seven weeks, there may be behaviorial issues since she missed the last critical week with her mother and siblings. In a sense if you adopt this particular puppy without the health clearances and at only seven weeks you are taking risks similar to those folks who "rescue" Cavaliers from shelters or auctions take and should be prepared, as they are, to accept the real possiblity of problems or "issues" with your puppy. If you decide not to adopt this puppy but to keep looking, be aware that AKC registration alone is no guarantee, that you still need to check that all the breeding health protocols have been followed and that even then there is no guarantee but the risks are greatly reduced. Whatever decision you make, when you have a Cavalier, regardless of where he or she comes from, the members of this Board will be happy to help you raise her as long as you are willing to work hard to have her grow up happy, to care for her needs and, of course, to love her. Best of luck to you!

Lisa_T
17th July 2007, 02:08 AM
I would like to post on the issue of early socialisation. My elder girl is not a rescue in the strictest sense of the word, and she came originally from a well known line here in Northern Ireland. For whatever reasons, though, something went wrong. Holly was rescued at 8 weeks by the owners of her father. They think she was the only surviving puppy in the litter, as both mother and Holly were *severely* malnourished- to the point that the vet wanted to call animal protection. After another 6 weeks or so of care, Holly recovered, but....

Her dad's owner did not have a litter at that time, and so Holly never had the experience of rough and tumble with fellow pups, and she was so frail that it wasn't suitable for her to be with the older dogs. Now, she's brilliant- smaller than most Cavs, stubborn and spunky- but there's no denying that she's neurotic, and it took a long time for her to first learn (as a pup) how to play at all (something that many owners of adult rescue dogs also comment on) and later, when I got Amber, it took Holly a long time to work out how to interact with a second dog on a regular basis.

Amber, by contrast, came to me from a litter at 12 weeks. She was loved from day one, had all the right experiences and socialisation... and she's a happy, confident personality with none of Holly's little 'issues'... yet, as I said in an earlier post, I doubt I'd use Amber's breeder again, even though I have no complaints and Amber is disgustingly healthy.

Cavaliers ARE an endangered breed. This is one breed where you cannot afford to compromise. It's not worth it in the long run.

Brika
23rd July 2007, 08:47 PM
Today our dreams of THIS cavalier are shattered. I am not a person who easily admits when I'm wrong... but I think this time... I am.

I have been on the fence for a week now about our puppy. As I've stated before I had some reservations that I wouldn't have had if I hadn't have began to research more about cavaliers, but once I realized that there were some warning signs I shouldn't dismiss... I began to worry.

Here's what is up as of now.

The breeder promised me photos as of last Tuesday. They didn't come... I emailed twice... didn't want to be impatient... but my husband and I and our kids are very excited and wanted to post photos each week around our home as we began to purchase supplies for our new family member. On Sunday I emailed again and more forcefully asked for photos. She sent them. I was excited again and thought maybe we were finally on our way to an understanding. She knew were are coming to get the puppy and that we have young children, she knew I was concerned about the health of the puppy and that we were excited to meet the parents and SEE where the puppies have been rasied. I figured, we'd placed our deposit, we'd travel there and check things out for ourselves in person and then make our decision.

Today I get an email... stating that her "inspector" had now told them that they must get a health exam that will cost an additional 100.00. I was confused (and another red flag popped up) because she had said we needed one before and it would be 50.00 (she said because "Shala" as we've already named her would be going out of state).... so I called and asked her what this was all about. At the time of this call she didn't mention the inspector but said that the price would maybe go up from the originally quoted 50$ to 100 or more depending on how many puppies she could take to the vet at the same time, because the vet charges less the more puppies she examines at one time. Okay, I said (still being nice). So I ask what all is included in the exam? She says basically, eyes, nose, knees, temp, stuff like that. I then asked for the number to her vet so I could ask some questions about what she looks for etc. She became very defensive and asked me what I wanted to know. I said that I'd like some history as to what tests are done wtih your puppies, find out about shot records, worming etc... so I could coordinate appointments with our vet once we take the puppy home. She told me that she didn't know why I needed all that information because she and her husband do the shots and worming and that the vet hadn't seen the puppies since their dew claws were removed. She said that she has dealt with "people like me" before and that it isn't fair to her vet to come out of the exam room to constantly answer calls about puppies she hasn't examined yet. I explained again that I wanted to be sure that we were taking in a new family member that is health but that I didn't expect the vet to tell me about THIS PARTICULAR DOG... just visit with me a bit about what she tests for etc. I metioned that I've heard that Cav's have issues with eyes and hearts and I wanted to ask the vet that she used to clarify my questions. She finally stated that she'd let the vet talk to me when she took the pups in for their exam... that at that time we wouldn't be bugging her and we could get more information while the pups were actually there. I pressed a bit further and she said do you want your money back? I paused and said what we want is a healthy puppy. She said that she's never had any issue with a puppy and that she'd never sell a bad puppy, yada, yada, yada... I said I'm sure that is true but I don't know you... and this is a lot of money for us. ALSO, we have two children (and we do child care!!!) who are excited and waiting for a healthy dog, not one we'll get attached to and have die weeks later or live with life threatening problems... that I'm not accusing her, but trying to be careful.

When I asked her again how far she was from des moines... she told me and then said one other thing that sent off the final HUGE red flag for me. She said that many people when they come want to walk through the kennnels. And that they simply don't allow that. She said her and her husband wear gloves, booties, and hair coverings when they enter and that she doesn't allow others in. I asked if we would see the parents and she said she though probably the dad, but she was unsure about the mother because it's too hard on her to be around all those people when she's been with her puppies. AND that she has to be sure that she doesn't get pregnant for at least another year so the mom is kept seperate from the others and she doesn't want to take the chance on them getting together. She said that's all I'm going to say about that and we hung up. I was now in tears... holding photos of sweet puppies we've named... "Shala" ordred crate for, collar, lead, books galore... and looking at two kids who are wondering what is up. I called my husband and we're now SEARCHING desperatly for a puppy that will work for us... ANY IDEAS??>?>?>>?? We want a good pet qualiy dog, and we're willing to pay what we need to to do that...

One last thing... I called around the town where the kennel was located trying to find the vet she mentioned (first name only). (which by the way was two different names during two differnet phone calls). I didn't find the vet... but found one they used to use. I talked to the vet directly and asked questions. She wouldn't say anything either way. I asked if they cared about their puppies, she said "mostly". I asked why they didn't use them as vets anymore and she said we had "issues" with them. She wouldn't say what. It was an odd call... and yet another red flag.


About 2 hours ago she calls and leaves me an apology message and asks me to please call her back, says she's had a bad day and is sorry.

I'm thinking I'll email and say that we think maybe for us it's better to find a puppy closer to us since we're worry warts... that we're sure her puppies are wonderful and we're sad that the transaction won't work. Ask for our money back. (which she offered once... but her web site says the depostis are non refundable, so we'll see)... I'm thinking since we used paypal that I can file for non recieved goods since we won't get the dog and hopefully the email stating the increase in price will also help us win our claim if she doesn't refund.

Now, the last thing I need is a bunch of "told you so's"... we're devastated right now... sad about our bad transaction, and even more sad about those 8 puppies that are in "probable" bad conditions. We loved our puppy and we hadn't even held her.

Now, we're not trying to rush into another bad puppy deal... but rather take what we've learned and find another puppy that we are comfortable with.

Moviedust
23rd July 2007, 09:03 PM
Way to GO!! GOOD JOB! You stuck to your guns and you aren't going to let that breeder swindle you out of your money and your affections.

Considering the breeder already offer you your money back, I'd do exactly as you said and ask for it. She'll probably hand it over, and be glad to be rid of someone who could get her in SERIOUS trouble.

Hang in there for the perfect puppy. Some disappointed kids are much better than heart-broken ones!!

Bravo! You're a brave, brave woman!

arasara
23rd July 2007, 09:17 PM
Oh I am so sorry :( What a bummer. Where are you located at?? I'm sending you a PM :)

Great job and way to go for staying strong!

mhabca
23rd July 2007, 09:20 PM
I'm so sorry. You must be so disappointed. Have faith that the perfect pup will come you way.

jld
23rd July 2007, 09:32 PM
So sorry, but the perfect pup is out there for you. Take your time and listen to the very knowledgeable people on this site. I got my little one from a recommendation on this site, and I couldn't be happier.

Brika
23rd July 2007, 09:54 PM
Thanks everyone... we're just very sad right now and have begun to look elsewhere. I'm hoping we find another puppy before summer is over as we don't want to bring a tiny pup home in the middle of a Minnesota winter.

Nicki
23rd July 2007, 10:03 PM
I'm so sorry you've been through this awful experience - sadly there are many horrid people out there who only want to make money and don't really care about the puppies they breed...

I know this is very upsetting for you, but it's better that you've found out now, and won't be in the situation where you bring a wee one home, and then face possibly heartache and huge vets bills...

You have learnt a lot from this experience and will hopefully now find a responsible breeder and the perfect puppy for you - wishing you the very best of luck in your search.

Harry & Heidi's mom
23rd July 2007, 10:13 PM
just wanted to send you a hug, and wish you luck in your search

Lisa_T
23rd July 2007, 10:43 PM
Oh, I'm sorry for your disappointment, but glad that you've decided not to go through with it... and re your worries about winter, I think someone here said (arasara, maybe?) that housetraining in the depths of a snowy winter was actually very easy since once the puppy twigged what was wanted, he did his business quickly without messing around! Have you tried pm'ing those members close to you for recommendations?

ppotterfield
23rd July 2007, 11:06 PM
Brika: What you did was very hard to do and you should be proud of yourself. I do not know where to send you but know that the right puppy will come your way. If you let folks know the town or at least area where you live some folks may be able to refer you to reputable breeders who have current puppies or who are expecting puppies in the near future. Even then make sure you do an independent check. Hoping for a new little critter in your family soon.

Prov31
23rd July 2007, 11:12 PM
That is a wonderful decision! There are too many red flags to proceed. We are in Wisconsin and our breeder currently doesn't have puppies, but here is a link the the club's breeder list that shows 4 reputable breeders that currently say they have puppies. This is a small kennel club and everyone knows everyone else. These breeders are just the type you should be looking for:
http://www.ckcscsw.org/Page3-CKCSCSW-BreederInfo.asp
Good luck! It is better to make a good decision now, than to suffer for years with the consequences of a potentially unhealthy dog.

loveisokay
23rd July 2007, 11:52 PM
It's a shame that there are people like this, really is. I hope you find the puppy that is right for you & the kids!

vikki
24th July 2007, 02:49 AM
sending you warmest aloha, your special pup is just around the corner.

arasara
24th July 2007, 03:26 AM
yes it was me that had to train Faith in the middle of a Canadian Winter! :yikes

It was actually quite easy to be honest with you. It was so cold outside that there was no time to "stop and smell the flowers." She would go out, do her business, and RUN back in.. hehe :)

Elude
24th July 2007, 03:52 AM
I had the same experience training Zoey in Canadian winter weather. No time for fooling around! It was a very easy process.

BarbMazz
24th July 2007, 03:54 AM
:flwr: Hugs to you, Brika, for making such a hard decision!

I know it may have seemed harsh here. I'm hoping you are able to see that those of us who posted to you only want the best for the breed, and the best for you and your family. I predict you will find a darling puppy who will fit right in like you wouldn't even believe!

Just remember, when you do we all expect to see pictures!! :snap:

Good luck in your search, and best wishes, too. Remember, you've braved this tough circumstance... if you have ANY questions at all feel free to post them here.

Cathy T
24th July 2007, 05:27 AM
I think you made a very hard decision...but made the right decision. The right puppy is out there for you and with research you will find him/her. It's sad but this woman will sell those puppies. This is definitely not someone we want to encourage.

Brika
24th July 2007, 07:12 AM
She is refusing to refund our deposit. So, we're trying to convince her. She's very MAD at us.

Our last call she did say she'd refund it if she sells the puppy. But hey... shouldn't she sell it soon since they were all sold within 2 weeks of birth?

I'd really love my money back, but I'm not getting the puppy no matter what.

We DO HAVE A NEW lead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!


That's our big news. It's a small breeder who has only a female and this litter. The dad is an AKC champion (I don't care but it sounded good) they have heart checks, come with a health guarentee! AND she is happy to have us talk to her vet and see the parents and her home where the puppies have lived (no kennels)

The puppy is a lot more money... double in fact. BUT, we felt very comfortable with her, she wasn't pushy, rude, or acting supeirior. She seemed very honest and sweet.

We won't make the same mistake twice... we're going this weekend to check her out! (She's close to us) and we probably can take the puppy home soon. (they are 8 weeks now, and she said as soon as she feels they are ready) We're excited and very, very... CAUTIOUS!!!!!!!!!

Again, (no flaming please) only the dad is AKC registered... mom isn't... but again we don't care about that. Just health and pet quality.

The health guarentee (five years for heart) and 1 year for any life threatening, really made us feel much more comfortable.

Please think happy thoughts about our refund and the possibilty of a new puppy.

thanks! :rah: (I'm trying to hold myself back... but UGH!!!!!!!! it's so hard)

matties mum
24th July 2007, 10:19 AM
I am so pleased for you I am going on holiday soon so maybe by the time Icome back you will have your new baby and photos----Aileen and the gang (Jazzie---Barney---Sam)

Karlin
24th July 2007, 11:33 AM
Please reread this thread again and review what people said and the links that were offered about finding a GOOD breeder who DOES breed for health. Your new one does not and indeed is going to charge you twice as much for a dog of the same poor quality.

I know you won't want to hear this but it simply has got to be said so at least you don;t think you are getting a better arrangement with this second breeder: the new breeder is NOT going to be any better than the old breeder. A dog that isn't even AKC registered is going to be from totally un-health-tested lines of totally unknown background. Such dogs are purely from other backyard breeders or puppy mills -- that is WHY they have no ability to be registered. So she simply cannot be telling you she cares about health -- or she would not be breeding such a dog.

I simply cannot believe she can have a champion sire for this litter, either -- no owner of an AKC champion dog would breed it to a dog of no registration; it is simply impossible for this to happen unless something very underhand was going on! No reputable breeder would allow for her champion to be misused in this way. Because she cannot register the puppies from this union with any accepted, reputable registry (AKC or CKCSC) you have absolutely no way of proving the father is who it is. Here is why: I could tomorrow, create pedigrees for all my dogs with the trash registries, stating that my dogs have a famous sire and dam, and the regsitries would issue those registrations to all my dogs, no checks or proof required, as soon as I paid my money to them (THAT is why they are meaningless, trash registries). By contrast, the AKC and CKCSC require PROOF. That is why reputable breeders ONLY use reputable, established registries, so that their dogs are verifiably who they say they are, and so that the parentage of their dogs will be recognised by worldwide reputable registries and clubs if they show abroad or their dog is used as a stud abroad, or pups are homed abroad, for example.

No reputable breeder offers a five year heart guarantee as it is MEANINGLESS -- this is another red flag ploy of a trash breeder to dupe unsuspecting puppy buyers into thinking this signifies they must breed for health if they are offering such a long term guarantee. Yet you won't find a single reputable breedr offering such a meaningless guarantee, and for good reason. What is her 'guarantee'? Will she pay all costs for treatment of the dog? Or is she just saying she will 'replace' the dog -- which they know full well no pet owner will choose as an option, therefore they never pay out? They also know few pet owners will ever cardiac test their dogs and most vets cannot pick up the early murmurs cavaliers typically develop -- in 50% of dogs -- by age 5. The chances are too that she will be long gone and uncontactable by the time your dog reaches age 5 and develops murmurs. And initial murmurs are very cheap to treat anyway -- the meds are amongst the cheapest on the market (say $5 a month) -- it is when the dog gets older than 5 that costs start to rise or the dog dies. So a 5 year heart guarantee means nothing.

The bigger question is: why is she charging TWICE what the other breeder did when she is producing dogs of exactly the same poor quality, incapable of registration, with one parent at least that will be from the most indifferent lines of totally unknown health history (that is why pedigrees are important -- breeders know the *histories* of their dogs going back generations and (*that* is what matters when breeding, not simply testing the parents).

Has she cardiac and cardiologist tested (not heart testing by just a vet) both parents, and the grandparents (all four). Are the grandparents all heart murmur free at age 5 and can she show you the certs? Are both parents at least 2.5 and heart clear (all cleared by a cardiologist)? If not, you are just going right back into the same situation with dogs of trash quality with more serious health risks.

With dogs, you will get what you pay for. You pay for breeder expertise, care, and long time commitment to their lines and to using only heart clear dogs.

Please use a CKCSC or ACKCSC registered breeder who heart tests using a cardiologist.

You'd be better off going for a rescue dog if you are wiling to live with the uncertainty of health background and potential high costs of treatment and early death, rather than support exploitative, trash breeders in their poor breeding practices.

Please understand that you are only going from the frying pan into the fire and paying twice as much in order to do it. The worst breeders on this planet who most exploit these dogs are expert at sounding like the sweetest, most caring people. Do NOT be taken in by what people say. Scrutinise instead what they DO. Actions are far more important than words.

Karlin
24th July 2007, 02:55 PM
I think it is time for this particular thread to be closed.

I understand there have been several private contacts made from many caring people on the board, with excellent suggestions of reputable breeders who possibly have puppies, and offers of help with those good contacts.

There is also extensive, wise advice as well as some sad cautionary tales within the thread now.

Brika, you can follow the advice you asked for and actually *listen* to the many voices of experience here who have tried to be helpful, or you can remain firm in your convictions that it is better to ignore the advice of people with actual experience and knowledge and find that cheap puppy right away. People here are not going to confirm your poor choices. But I also do not want this thread to cycle through all the same advice again and for those with that good advice to encounter the frustration of having no one listen to what is being said.

The puppy mill and backyard breeder industry thrives off people willing to trade cheap, instant gratification for wise investment and respect for preserving the breed.

Every purchase from these bottom feeder breeders further debilitates the breed as a whole as they are financed in their poor breeding practice, causing the worst health problems to become more widely dispersed. They are the main reason the breed is struggling against a tide of widely spread, poor genes.

To my mind there are many things children could be taught about choosing wisely, learning patience, and caring for animals by waiting for the right puppy from the right, reputable breeder. Whether kids would be disappointed in not getting an instant puppy should not be a worry. Making a good choice of breeder and puppy -- a lifetime commitment and a lifetime expense -- is a great example to set for them.

Thread closed. It is sad that we just seem to have returned to where it all started with nothing learned. :mad:

Brika
24th July 2007, 04:13 PM
Since my thread is closed because "I haven't learned anything"... I thought I'd take the opportunity to post a new thread. If it's deleted... I'll know I'm unwelcome and that the care for puppies that people are buying runs only so deep.

I want to send my sincere thank you to those who helped on this board with our search for a puppy. Which by the way IS NOT DONE YET. My last post on my original thread said we were CHECKING another puppy out. Many of you PMed me and were very thoughtful, caring, and helpful. Others, rude, quick to judge, and full of superiority. Thank you to all of you.

Perhaps Karlin feels I have not learned anything. I do not agree. I feel that I've done more research, "LISTENING", and struggling with my choices than 99% of puppy buyers. I'm sorry that Karlin is so quick to judge me, my choices, and my IQ. I take great offense to my thread being closed. One that I felt was giving me more ideas, more lead, more help. PM's have been recieved and that is where I am forced to go for more help.

Karlin,

I've reread this thread and the tutorials about puppy purchasing many times. I think maybe what you are not understanding is that I don't have the strong urge for show quality bred dogs which seems to be the only kind you'll endorse. In fact, I feel very uncomfortable with some of the "quality" breeders I've called... they've made me feel unworthy, and have been downright snobbish. I've even been told that we shouldn't have a Cavalier because we have kids. I have no more desire to work with these breeders than than the orignal one I had. I'd much rather work with someone who is middle of the road. One with good vet history, good advice, and one who I get along with.

Our family has bred chocolate labs ... and yes, I'm sure we are what you'd call backyard breeders. We did many tests... worked closely with our vet, and considered ourselves very caring and careful. So, we more closely identify with a simple transaction, a loving family, clean conditions, open discussion with vet's about the puppy's health, the parents health, and YES THE GRANDPARENTS health. AKC registration is nice... but it's simply papers (at least to me) .... and every bit of paperwork I've ever had the experience with means room for errors, usually many.

Can I ask this. Why if I have the opportunity to talk with the breeder on several occasions, see their home, see where the dogs were raised, see their pedegree, see the parents, talk to the vet about the health of the parents (and I'll ask about the grandparents) see the proof of heart clearance, AND I FEEL GOOD about what I've seen... should I not go through with the transaction?

Because of Papers??????? Because it's not a breeder directly recommended from this board? If there were papers AKC... and I knew about the grandparents then... would it be okay?

After reading all the suggestions (and many PMs) I DO think I've learned. About the breed, about breeders, about myselft and what I'm really looking for, and I hope I've found a place where I can come and show off our sweetie, ask questions, cry if needed... and fit in with other dog lovers.

But, if this is a place where posts are closed because there is a lack of conforming... it's not a place for me.

I wish you all the best day with your dogs. We hope to join you soon with a healthy dog of our own.

Karlin
24th July 2007, 04:59 PM
Brika: you are still NOT LISTENING. I am responding to what YOU yourself have said.

No one is saying you need to buy show dogs and if that is the message you have taken away, and you confuse properly bred dogs with show dogs only, then you truly are not paying attention to anything anyone has said.

People are saying you need to go to a breeder who breeds HEALTHY dogs. HEALTHY dogs are never, EVER bred by the kinds of people you keep wanting to patronise and whose typical stories you are still swallowing because they are offering you puppies that cost less than reputable breeders' puppies. Many of us have heard those stories, and I get many private mails from devastated owners of dogs they bought from just this type of breeder -- the breeders that seem nice and say all the things you want to hear (of course they do -- they are tryng to make a sale, just like the first one). But only show breeders or breeders involved actively in the dog world -- with the official clubs -- produce dogs with the knowledge that helps ensure you have the best chance of a HEALTHY dog. Only they have the trust in the quality of their dogs to place them before their colleagues where they can be actively seen and assessed and lines scrutinised. I am sorry if you spoke with some rude people. But maybe they felt all you were interested in was the cheapest possible puppy, as this is a point that emerges over and over in your posts, which could in their eyes have marked you as a not very desireable home. Believe me, there are plenty of BYBs and millers who are a LOT more unpleasant than any show breeder could ever be.

Let me say this again: People who do not use registered dogs will NOT be breeding for health. They are breeding to make money by convincing people that the show breeder world is difficult and snobby and they, by contrast, have only your best interest at heart because they so badly want you to have a cavalier.

Yeah, right. They badly want YOUR MONEY and they want to make as much off of you as possible by cutting corners as breeders. They do NOT health test properly. They use the trash registries because their dogs are of such unknown quality that they cannot even get a basic AKC registration -- which isn't difficult to get, there are plenty of BYB and puppy mill dogs that have AKC reg. But it or CKCSC in the US is the most basic MINIMUM you need to see before you even consider buying a puppy.

Proper breed testing, proper vet care and producing carefully bred dogs is not cheap. That is why any time you see cut rate puppies, you know you are getting a puppy from someone who is cutting corners. Any show breeder will confirm they do not make money by breeding -- often, they lose it. BYBs stay in business because they spend NOTHING on their dogs, use the trash registries, and get gullible people to believe they, the trash breeder, are doing the buyer a big favour.

They are fleecing the buyer and wrecking the breed because their poor breeding decisions will be reflected in further puppies -- bred by more BYBs who register their dogs with the trash registries because they cannot get 'papers' anywhere else. It is even worse when such ignorant people think they truly are doing things the right way and are somehow benefitting anyone, much less the breed they choose to slowly ruin through thoughtless breeding decisions.

Your post however speaks for itself and I will leave it here for people to see just why it has been so damn difficult for you to understand why health and quality and supporting good breeding practice actually matters, and why you have wasted so much of our time in arguing on behalf on what was so obviously one junk breeder, and a second one with cut rate dogs is also now more appealing than the club breeders contacts so many kindly offered you.

Clearly these things didn't matter when you were breeding and selling puppies, and therefore isn't going to matter much to you when buying one of another breed. All we can hope for is that you don't decide you have a 'contribution' to make by breeding whatever puppy you do end up with.