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Thelly
3rd August 2007, 08:46 PM
Hi all

Just to let you know Ginger is whelping at the moment. So far she has two pups and is doing great.

She is sleeping at the moment. I'll post with all the info later.
:rah: :rah: :rah:

matties mum
3rd August 2007, 09:07 PM
great please keep us inform
Aileen and the gang (Jazzie---Barney---Sam)

Justine
3rd August 2007, 09:08 PM
Ohhhhhh brilliant cant wait to see pics,is the muma ok.

Denise G.
3rd August 2007, 09:12 PM
Go Ginger!!! Bless her heart--and yours, Thelly! :rah:

Hugs to you and Ginger. Can't wait to hear the final count!:xfngr:

coconut
3rd August 2007, 09:42 PM
:rah: go ginger so glad it is going well! congrats to thelly aswell:flwr:

Rj Mac
3rd August 2007, 09:44 PM
Brilliant, so glad to hear she is doing well, take care all of you :luv:

Chardonnay
3rd August 2007, 09:55 PM
How exciting! I've been monitoring the progress for days, feels like I'm right there with Thelly and Ginger. I can't wait to see pics.

Harry & Heidi's mom
3rd August 2007, 09:58 PM
ohhhhhhhhh more puppies!!!!!!!!

hoping things are going well xxx

Cathy T
3rd August 2007, 10:40 PM
Finally!! Can't wait to hear more!

Thelly
4th August 2007, 12:54 AM
Just a quick note to say she has 3 at the mo and maybe a 4th on the way. Last one was at 8:07 this evening. She is such a pro - lucky for me. She is doing great as are the pups. Keeping them nice and warm and safe.

I'll post pics in the morning so you can see the little ones

Be in touch...

Karlin
4th August 2007, 01:01 AM
Thanks so much for the update. Hope she finishes up so you can get some sleep too! :)

jld
4th August 2007, 01:25 AM
Thelly, hats off to you... You are really a trooper through all this. Ginger, and the puppies,are so very lucky to have you in their lives at this time. I would hate to think of what might have been if not for all the wonderful people who came to her rescue. You are a special lady !!!!! Can't wait to hear the final count and of course see those promised pics.....:flwr:

cavlover
4th August 2007, 01:37 AM
:rah: I am so glad everything is going so smoothly you all must be very tired.:luv:
judy

Bruce H
4th August 2007, 02:05 AM
Thanks for the update Thelly. Looking forward to hearing all about the puppies and seeing pictures. First priority is take care of the puppies and Ginger. Second priority is take care of yourself. Everything else is third priority.

Been there, done that. I know how tiring all this is and I'm sure its compounded being the first litter you have welped. Take care.

Jenny37
4th August 2007, 02:17 AM
Oh gosh---just hearing the news makes me want to yell "Get her an epidural STAT!!!" LOL I had 3 children of my own and I still remember it like it was yesterday----I could never have done it without the drugs!!!

I hope all goes wonderfully. I will be checking for your post!!!!!

Cathryn
4th August 2007, 02:21 AM
Can only echo what Bruce has just said really, if you are unsure about anything call the vet, but most important of all keep the pups nice and warm, mum warm and well fed and watered and a comfy bed beside the whelping box for yourself, a portable T.V and some-one to bring you endless cups of tea/coffee!!

Let your house run itself for the next day or so, hard to do I know but this new family needs you more right now!!

Thelly
4th August 2007, 02:41 AM
Thanks for all your support. We are all resting at the mo. Don't know if we are done at 4...

Puppies and mummy are nice and warm and comfortable. They are my everything for the next while. :luv:

Truly the last post of the 'evening'. Will update fully in the morning.

Again, thanks for all your support guys

Emma n Renco
4th August 2007, 08:42 AM
Ah wow! Congratulations, and well done Ginger... watching out for the latest updates, hope you are getting some rest now. :-)

elaine181000
4th August 2007, 09:16 AM
So exciting! Enjoy your rest! Can't wait for the next update ... congratulations to you all :D

Mimi
4th August 2007, 09:26 AM
Welcome to the world little ones . Congrats Ginger and well done Thelly , cant wait to see pictures .
Mimi

Andrea Howell
4th August 2007, 10:12 AM
Wow, Go Ginger!!:rah: Can't wait to see pics, Good Luck to both of you.:paw:

coconut
4th August 2007, 11:48 AM
thelly u have done a really great job as the others have said hats off to u!! congrats to u ginger and the new lil puppies looking forward to seeing pictures!!:luv:

jennifer
4th August 2007, 12:44 PM
:jump: :mexwav: :jump:
:lotsaluv: :lotsaluv: Well Done Thelly & Ginger. Can't wait for some photos.:lotsaluv: :lotsaluv:

sallymum
4th August 2007, 12:50 PM
:rah: :jump: Well done Thelly and Ginger.

cavlover
4th August 2007, 01:18 PM
4 puppy's:rah: :rah: :rah: I just can't wait for the pictures iI hope you all got some sleep.
judy

*Pauline*
4th August 2007, 01:26 PM
This is so exciting. Thanks for sharing the experience with us. I wish I could be there to help.

Cathryn
4th August 2007, 01:43 PM
Aw!! Now that's a nice size litter! Well done Thelly and Ginger for getting them here safe and sound!! Looking forwards to seeing some pics of these little one's soon!! :lotsaluv: Take Care now!!

merlinsmum
4th August 2007, 02:16 PM
Well done Ginger (and Thelly):paw::D

matties mum
4th August 2007, 02:24 PM
Well done both of you
Aileen and the gang (Jazzie---Barney---Sam)

misty
4th August 2007, 03:13 PM
Well done, Ginger - not forgetting Thelly of course! :):):)

Thelly
4th August 2007, 03:45 PM
Here are some pics!!!

Need some expert advice - are they full cav or something else. I have never had the pleasure of seeing new born cavs so I am unsure what they should start out looking like.

They are so gorgeous.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1417/1006765253_cf63f728e5_m.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1083/1006766283_b8b41a5070_m.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1344/1007622346_341b977320_m.jpg

loveisokay
4th August 2007, 03:57 PM
Aww how precious. How many boys/girls are there?

jld
4th August 2007, 04:03 PM
CONGRATULATIONS, Thelly. You and Ginger did good...... They are so sweet. Now, hopefully everyone can relax a little. :rah:

Mary
4th August 2007, 04:09 PM
Yay for Thelly and Ginger. Looking forward to hearing stories of the puppies as they grow and pictures.

matties mum
4th August 2007, 04:26 PM
They are beautiful
----Aileen and the gang (Jazzie--Barney--Sam)

TKC
4th August 2007, 04:27 PM
They sure look like Cavalier Puppies to me! I am not expert though. Oh those little ears I love them!

We must remember where she comes from so markings, colours etc would not have been a priority!

Well done to you all :)

Thelly
4th August 2007, 04:28 PM
We have 2 boys and 2 girls. Should have said that before!!

Can't believe they are actually here!:luv:

coconut
4th August 2007, 04:35 PM
thelly they are beatiful!!

Charleen
4th August 2007, 04:39 PM
They are beautiful. Thanks for sharing pictures with us of your blessed event.

*Pauline*
4th August 2007, 04:40 PM
CUTE CUTE CUTE CUTE!!!! :luv: :luv: :luv: :luv:

sallymum
4th August 2007, 04:58 PM
How beautiful are they.:l*v: I have never seen a new born Cavalier, but so what even if there not. They are so cute. Well done to u all.:rah:

amanda L
4th August 2007, 04:59 PM
The last two pictures of Ginger and her puppies are just beautiful, Ginger has the most gentle loving face, so happy to read all went well during the whelping

Lynn
4th August 2007, 05:10 PM
:rah: Congratulations!!!!!!:rah: What a wonderful person you are Thelly to help Ginger and now her puppies.....you are an angel! The puppies are sooooooooooo cute!!!!!! Great job to both Thelly & Ginger!!!:flwr: What a heart-warming story this is....

Bruce H
4th August 2007, 05:20 PM
GREAT job Ginger and Thelly!! They look really cute and very healthy. Not a one of them looks the least bit skinny. So Thelly, are you ready to start breeding Cavaliers now that you have your first litter behind you? ;) The first is always the hardest, you know.

Now all you have to do is keep track of the weight for a while to be sure everyone is gaining. I would also recommend giving Ginger a couple pieces of cheese each day for the calcium.

Are they full Cavalier?? Everything about the body and head shape seems to say yes. The only thing that I see different than what I am used to is the amount of dark color and not very much white. The dark on blenheims will usually get darker as they get older, so the color is going to change some. Cathryn, other breeders here, what do you think?

matties mum
4th August 2007, 05:21 PM
Can I make a suggestion of a name please for one of the little boys has Mattie
----Aileen and the gang (Jazzie---Barney---Sam)

cavlover
4th August 2007, 05:46 PM
Ginger and the puppy's are so beautiful, they look like cav's to me and they all look so healthy.

Karlin
4th August 2007, 06:02 PM
Just logged in at Schiphol airort in Amsterdam while waitin to board my flight to Korea -- hoping there would be photos by now!! Hooray! They look really healthy; great job Thelly and Ginger! :)

Bruce I would guess they could be rubies with a lot of white, possibly? -- I would assume dad was a blenheim and probably Fred, .

I am sure after they get a little larger, abd the colouring more defined, we'll know if they are cavaliers or mixes.

Cathy Moon
4th August 2007, 06:04 PM
Wow, what a lovely little mum and babies. :lotsaluv:

Bless you Thelly for taking care of Ginger in her time of need. She is so fortunate to have found you for her foster mom! :luv:

Rj Mac
4th August 2007, 07:10 PM
what lovely puppies, they look so cute , well done Ginger and perhaps Fred?:D

Barbara Nixon
4th August 2007, 07:46 PM
The colour made me wonder. They look more like rubies, but if Fred is the daddy, they would have to be all Blenheims. Golden cocker or another, ruby, cavalier ?

Cathryn
4th August 2007, 07:49 PM
Are they full Cavalier?? Everything about the body and head shape seems to say yes. The only thing that I see different than what I am used to is the amount of dark color and not very much white. The dark on blenheims will usually get darker as they get older, so the color is going to change some. Cathryn, other breeders here, what do you think?

Hmmm!! As you say Bruce the overall body and head shape would suggest a Cavalier father, however I do NOT think it was Fred!! These look more akin to a Ruby to Blenheim mating in my opinion, and that is all it is, my humble opinion! Another train of thought might suggest a golden cocker possibly even? Interesting! Certainly looking at Fred and Gingers markings in previous pics if they were his they would be far more broken up I think??

AT
4th August 2007, 07:59 PM
ahhh cute ;D

They could have more than one dad.

Arne
4th August 2007, 08:03 PM
you are right they could, but I thought Ginger and Freds marking were well broken up and the puppies markings are quite solid all of them.
Maybe Fred was a concerned friend rather than an anxious parent.

loveisokay
4th August 2007, 08:15 PM
They look like rubies to me. :)

jennifer
4th August 2007, 08:34 PM
Awww, they are lovely. They have done their Mummy proud. :l*v: :l*v:

elaine181000
4th August 2007, 09:16 PM
It's official ... I'm in love :l*v:

Could they be any more gorgeous?! Congratulations!

Denise G.
4th August 2007, 09:28 PM
Oh, they're beautiful and Ginger is such a good mommy!! Thelly you're the greatest and congratulations to you, too!:flwr:

frecklesmom
4th August 2007, 10:24 PM
What a great outcome-such sweet babies. Thelly, you have worked wonders to make Ginger feel so at home-what a wonderful little girl she is........

Thelly
4th August 2007, 10:27 PM
Some very sad news. We lost one of the boys today. He was the last born (midnight).

He was very weak today and not feeding. Worse still he had some very strange orange mucus coming from his nose. We brought him to the emergency vet but he died.

We are all very upset but thankful that the 3 and Ginger are strong and well.

Nature does run its course but it doesn't stop the tears.

I'm keeping a very close eye on the rest, but they are a strong bunch.

Sorry to post with such a heavy heart. :( :( :(

casshon
4th August 2007, 10:32 PM
Oh Thelly, I'm so sorry to hear that. The poor little guy :(

I'm glad that Ginger and the other 3 are still doing ok. You're doing a great job :flwr:

jennifer
4th August 2007, 10:40 PM
Oh I am so sorry, that is heartbreaking news.:cry*ing: :(

matties mum
4th August 2007, 10:45 PM
Oh I am so sorry
----Aileen and the gang (Jazzie---Barney---Sam)

loveisokay
4th August 2007, 10:46 PM
Aww, poor mite. Hope the others do well.

Cathryn
4th August 2007, 10:54 PM
So very sorry to hear this sad news, it is heartbreaking when you lose one, but the others look strong and healthy and will thrive I am sure!

Look at it this way, he was too good for us to keep this time around and the big guy upstairs took him back again, this is my mindset when I lose one "It was obviously too good for little old me"!! I find it helps!! :hug: :hug:

*Pauline*
4th August 2007, 11:01 PM
Oh I'm so sorry Thelly. Do you think you will keep one?

sallymum
4th August 2007, 11:11 PM
Oh what heart breaking news.:( At least he knew love and kindness which probley he woulnt of knew if he had been born on the puppy farm. Will be thinking of u and the other little ones.:hug:

jld
4th August 2007, 11:13 PM
I am so sorry..... the same thing happened to us with our first litter of little wire-haired terrier puppies. We too lost a little boy. It was heartbreaking, but unfortunately it happens. Thelly you are doing a fantastic job. They are so lucky to have you.

Bruce H
4th August 2007, 11:19 PM
I PM'd you. Then I noticed my PM box was full, so I deleted a bunch of stuff.

So very sorry to hear you lost one. As others have said, it is heartbreaking to lose one. Every breeder has, though, just kind of goes with the territory. Just try to get your spirits up and celebrate the three that you have.

jcj528
4th August 2007, 11:35 PM
So sorry to hear of your loss. It is heartbreaking, but it does happen. My females has a history of losing her runt. I agree with the Big Guy Up Top wanting your little one for HIS own. The two I've lost are with your little one. They are playing on the sandals of the MASTER. A wonderful place for all three of them.

Rj Mac
5th August 2007, 12:33 AM
I'm so sorry Thelly, it's so sad, hope you, mum and the other 3 are doing well :flwr:

cavlover
5th August 2007, 01:02 AM
:cry*ing: :cry*ing: :cry*ing: Very sad to hear this but you did everything you could do, some times nature takes over keep up all your good mothering of ginger and the babies.:luv:
judy

Cathy T
5th August 2007, 02:22 AM
The pups are adorable! Great job Thelly and Ginger. So sorry you had to experience a loss...I would imagine that was very hard on you. But you are doing a great job with them!!

Sue.k
5th August 2007, 01:12 PM
Well done Thelly, thanks for much for keeping me updated by text. I hope you are ok after the loss of the little man, you have done a fantastic job. Take loads of photos please, cant wait to see more :jump:

Cathy Moon
5th August 2007, 01:35 PM
So sorry for your loss of this precious pup. :hug:
I'm glad Ginger and the other 3 are doing well.:flwr::flwr::flwr:

coconut
5th August 2007, 01:43 PM
so sorry to hear that thelly but you still have 3 strong pups left!!! sorry for ur loss:flwr:

brid kenny
5th August 2007, 02:19 PM
Sorry to hear the news Thelly. Hope the rest are well and that you are getting a break from time to time.:xfngr:

Karlin
5th August 2007, 02:26 PM
I'm so sorry Thelly; the most experienced breeders lose them too, as the professional breeders here have noted and you did everything you could; nature takes its course sometimes and it can be very difficult to keep a weak one alive. I know the pleasure of the other little ones should raise your spirits.

AS to the background of thse puppies; they could be absolutely anything. My understanding is this farmer only bred cavaliers but I don't know if he had any others; my sense was that he only had these two at this point. He certainly didn;t know she was pregnant (if he'd mated her and knew they were cavaliers I am sure he would have kept and sold this last litter before selling GInger) which means this could really be any farm dog mix -- I kind of doubt anyone would have a cocker in his situation unless he was breeding them, but again, he told us he only bred cavaliers and I'd have no reason not to believe that). Thus the puppies are more likely to be a lab cross, collie cross, or terrier cross I think or of course a mix could be the father. The only other dog I definitely know the man had was a lab. If the colours are odd I would think it very much more likely that they are mixes than that he had a ruby male around.

Nicki
5th August 2007, 02:48 PM
So sorry to hear that one didn't make it Thelly - very sad, but at least the others are doing well. Ginger seems to be a great Mum which will make it a bit easier for you.

They do look like Cavaliers to me, but are very heavily marked for a Blen to Blen mating - I would have said Ruby to Blen before I read Karlin's post. Not sure what to think now...it will be interesting to see how they change as they grow up...

I hope Mum and babies are doing well and you are catching some sleep as and when you can - take care, and bless you for taking in this poor darling and looking after her so well.

merlinsmum
5th August 2007, 07:32 PM
Such a shame the little boy went to the bridge but hey! they are gorgeous you can't blame the big man wanting one for himeself.

Take peace in the fact that you have doen your utmost for Ginger and her young family. Well done you!

Jen
6th August 2007, 12:35 AM
They are adorable!! I'm sorry to hear about the little guy that didn't make it though.:(
His siblings will have us all watching them, though, while they grow.:)
It will be so fun to see what they look like and what their personalities are like! Interesting mix if it is a Cav and Lab...and it rhymes!:-p

sallymum
6th August 2007, 12:36 AM
Hope things are going ok. :xfngr:

Lisa_T
6th August 2007, 01:18 AM
Congrats and best of luck with the pups.... and sorry about the one that didn't make it.

Is it at all possible that both Fred and Ginger had a ruby parent? Hmm, maybe not.. I know wholecolour always dominates over parti, and I imagine both Fred and Ginger would have much more ruby if that was the case...I know a wc/pc mating can result in a wholecolour litter (Amber's parents are BT/Tri- the litter was all BT and Amber the only ruby) but don't know if the same can result in a parti...
Anyone?

Mary
6th August 2007, 01:39 AM
They get in your heart so quick don't they Thelly...sorry for the loss of the one little babe. Enjoy watching them change day by day. Will look forward to more pics as they grow. And a big thank you for being their taking such good care of Ginger and her babies.

Karlin
6th August 2007, 04:02 AM
Lisa, here's a table on colour possibilities. It wouldn't matter what the parents were -- if Fred were the dad, a blenheim x blenheim cross will always produce only blenheims:

http://www.fckc.com/sante/genetique/possibilites.html

On retrospect, I do feel it extremely unlikely a ruby could be the father -- I just do not think this man had a variety of dogs or was a large scale breeder and I think these were his only two cavaliers. As the puppies do not seem to be blenheims, it is far more likely that they are mixes of some sort. A few weeks and it should be pretty clear if they are cavaliers or mixes. :thmbsup: But right now I would be homing these as cavalier mixes until I am very sure this is not the case -- it makes more sense to assume they are mixes on the available evidence!

Thelly
6th August 2007, 10:46 AM
Everything going great with the babies. They are gaining weight day by day. Ginger is a great mommy and I'm taking good care of her needs.

I'll post more pics soon. It's going to be interesting to watch them develop and see how they turn out.

loveisokay
6th August 2007, 10:46 AM
Is that actually 100% guaranteed what should happen with something like genes, though? I honestly do believe genes have been completely over simplified, for example many people think it looks like Gg or gg or GG & so on. I'd be very surprised if it was as easy to understand as a table. If size can skip generations, I don't see why colour can't.

Obviously, they could still be a mix, but if they were a lab cross, wouldn't Ginger have had a very difficult time whelping?

Whatever they are, they are bloody cute, though.

Thelly
6th August 2007, 11:04 AM
Here's a few pics from yesterday...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1329/1026942524_0eee01ab35_m.jpg

The girl on her leg was the 1st born. She is a real handful!

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1261/1026090919_59c236a317_m.jpg

The light coloured is the little guy. He is the smallest so far. The other girl is feeding away somewhere!

sallymum
6th August 2007, 12:08 PM
What ever they are. They are beautiful:razz:

Caraline
6th August 2007, 12:13 PM
Congratulations on the new litter Thelma. I am very sorry to hear that one of the puppies didn't make it

The photos are absolutely adorable. :luv:

brid kenny
6th August 2007, 12:13 PM
Exactly, it must be great watching them!

Bruce H
6th August 2007, 01:18 PM
Glad to hear they are continuing to do well. They look great.

You have one this young that is already starting to climb Mom? Better keep an eye on her, she is definately going to be a handful!!

Barbara Nixon
6th August 2007, 01:32 PM
Perhaps dad is an golden Irish Mountain Climber.:D The puppies do seem to have the colouring nearer to that of a yellow lab, as isn't the ruby's red quite intense, even at birth (as opposed to Blenheims who darken up) ?

cavlover
6th August 2007, 01:43 PM
The pictures of them are so cute, I would like to see a close up of there face, they look like they are a good weight no matter what they are they are so beautiful.:luv:
judy

loveisokay
6th August 2007, 02:44 PM
Perhaps dad is an golden Irish Mountain Climber.:D The puppies do seem to have the colouring nearer to that of a yellow lab, as isn't the ruby's red quite intense, even at birth (as opposed to Blenheims who darken up) ?

Nope. Mine was very "golden" looking at 8 weeks old.

Karlin
6th August 2007, 02:52 PM
Genes always work out this way with colour, precisely because the way genes work for colour in this breed is known exactly (simple inheritence always means you can know the likely and sometimes the exact results from certain matings for certain characteristics from health issues to physical characteristics. When you have a blenheim, it got all recessive genes to create that colour combination. So any cross cannot produce the dominant genes that might give a different colour because neither parent has any of the dominant colour genes to pass on to offspring. Some other colours can produce diffrent colours than the parents depending on the combination of dominant and recessive genes it has, and how it passed them on. The diagram link I posted for color gives every possible combination depending on whether a certain colour was dominant or recessive. But as you can see on the chart, two blenheims will always and can only ever produce blenheims.

With a smaller breed dog whelping puppies from a larger breed sire, mother nature tends to compensate by making the puppies a smaller size though they may grow to a larger dog! Sometimes the puppies will be too big too whelp and a C-section is needed -- but this can happen with two cavalier parents too if a puppy or two is particularly large. A lot of times singleton puppies get too big to whelp and a C-section is needed -- as they hog all the nutrients themselves!

loveisokay
6th August 2007, 03:03 PM
No, I completely understand every bit of that & did before you said that. I was questioning whether that chart & the understanding of recessive & dominant genes, as taught in high school when we were all about 13, is a little bit elementary. I've studied science subjects to A level & even that was elementary to what the actual facts were outside of the taught syllabus in schools - in fact, most of my teachers would get quite distraught at the over simplification of what we were taught as it essentially meant most of it was wrong. I appreciate, that as a general rule, it may be true but surely you cannot rule out anomalies. I was asking whether it is ALWAYS ALWAYS the case as I highly doubt that, from what I know outside of breeding from my studies.

Karlin
6th August 2007, 03:18 PM
Yes, it is ALWAYS THE CASE. :) This is a very well understood area of genetics and for this particular colour, it can never, ever genetically be otherwise than that blenheims are ALL recessive and a crossing of two all recessive dogs can therefore ONLY produce all recessive puppies because there is simply NO dominant colour gene to pass on. Full stop, cannot genetically be otherwise. The ONLY colour thus associated with this mix is blenheim.

Nicki
6th August 2007, 04:03 PM
Oh I'm so glad they are doing well - Jack Russell puppies look very similar to Cavaliers at this age, so perhaps if there were JRTs around Ginger could have mated with one of them? That would explain the colouring...

I guess we will have to wait and see LOL

Ruth
6th August 2007, 04:06 PM
For what it's worth, that is an enormous looking puppy (the climbing one) for a 3 day old cavalier pup, colour looks suspect to me too. I would have that labrador in the frame as Dad.

Barbara Nixon
6th August 2007, 04:07 PM
Coat colour genetics are indeed much more complicated than the mere B, b, S and s , for markings colour and white showing. For instance there are thought to be four alleles for the white 'spotting ' gene, ranging from S for no white, s (little i) for Irish spotting, where the white areas don't go over the back, s (little p) for piebald, as in cavaliers and s (little w) for mainly white. These are in descending order of dominance. In other breeds, genes, affect markings like black masks (gsds) , merle (collies), intensity of colour (labs) etc, but the basic inheritance of white showing is straightforward. If they don't carry the S allele for no white, then white will show. Therefore neither Blenheim parent can carry this and pass it on.

Ani nteresting point is that our particour dogs are not actually white with black, red or tan markings , but coloured dogs with white 'leaking' through.

Karlin
6th August 2007, 04:17 PM
Yes I should have added that some colourings can be very complicated! But the basic four-colour inheritence for cavaliers is quite straightforward -- the way the numbers will fall remains uncertain if there can be combos (eg in a litter where you could have either rubies or blenheims) but there can't be any other combos than the way the basic colour genes work.

Barbara I also have to remind myself of that sometimes -- that the particlours are actually wholecolours with white breaking upthe wholecolour, like paint splashed over. Not white as a base, with the other colours on top, which is what seems more 'natural'. :)

inca
6th August 2007, 04:45 PM
they look like rubies to me ( mismarked with the white ).....sorry i don't know the story was she mated by accident

Barbara Nixon
6th August 2007, 04:52 PM
Strictly speaking, a heavily marked Blenheim ,or tricolour, is actually a lightly spotted one.:D

loveisokay
6th August 2007, 05:13 PM
Coat colour genetics are indeed much more complicated than the mere B, b, S and s , for markings colour and white showing. For instance there are thought to be four alleles for the white 'spotting ' gene, ranging from S for no white, s (little i) for Irish spotting, where the white areas don't go over the back, s (little p) for piebald, as in cavaliers and s (little w) for mainly white. These are in descending order of dominance. In other breeds, genes, affect markings like black masks (gsds) , merle (collies), intensity of colour (labs) etc, but the basic inheritance of white showing is straightforward. If they don't carry the S allele for no white, then white will show. Therefore neither Blenheim parent can carry this and pass it on.

Ani nteresting point is that our particour dogs are not actually white with black, red or tan markings , but coloured dogs with white 'leaking' through.

Thank you, that was what I was looking for. Though for rubies with white markings, would it not be possible for Blenheim parents to sire them if the white is leaking through still?

Barbara Nixon
6th August 2007, 06:24 PM
No. Below I use s where it should be s (little p) for convenience.

Blenheims are all bbss

Possible matings are with :

1) Wholecolours carrying no white

BBSS (black and tan) giving all BbSs (ie black and tans)

BbSS (black and tan) giving BbSs and/or bbSs (ie black and tan and/or ruby)

bbSS (ruby) giving all bbSs (ie ruby)

2) Wholecolours carrying white:

BBSs (black and tan) giving BbSs and/or Bbss (ie black and tan and/or tricolour)

BbSs (black and tan) giving any of BbSs, bbSs, Bbss, bbss (ie black and tan,tricolour, ruby,Blenheim)

bbSs ( ruby) giving bbSs and/or bbss (ie ruby and/or Blenheim)

3) Particolours:

BBss (tricolour) giving all Bbss (ie tricolours)

Bbss (triclour) giving Bbss and/or bbss (ie tricolour and/or Blenheim )

bbss (Blenheim) giving all bbss (ie Blenheims)

loveisokay
6th August 2007, 06:41 PM
Okay, I follow that - it's fairly clear genetics. What is the line between a piebald & a wholecolour with white when you are looking at one? Is it not possible to confuse the two since the amount of red markings on Blenheims differ? I've seen some rubies that look, to me, on the verge of possibly being confused with a Blenheim. Obviously, if you knew the genetics after testing them, you would know for sure but if you didn't test them? Isn't there another gene or set of genes detemining how much white or red exactly is on a particular piebald or how much white exactly is on a wholecolour?

Sorry, I find this very interesting & apologies for diverting the subject away from cute photos.

Karen S.
6th August 2007, 07:01 PM
I'm not a breeder so I haven't read up on all the color combinations but I do have a book on CKCS Color Inheritance Patterns. It states that an ee:ss blenheim paired witha ee:Ss ruby will produce 50% bleheim and 50% ruby puppies. Ruby puppies get darker as they age.
To me the puppies look purebred just mismarked. Just my opinion.

loveisokay
6th August 2007, 07:08 PM
That's 50% chance, surely?

Karen S.
6th August 2007, 07:14 PM
It probably is 50% chance although the book doesn't state it that way.

Emma n Renco
6th August 2007, 07:39 PM
Wow firstly what adorable puppies!!! so sad that one slipped away :-( Thanks for the photos, but also what an extremely interesting lesson on the breeding of cavaliers! as a non breeder with absolutely no scientific facts to offer I would just like to say my cousin has a "ruby" cavalier cocker mix and he's sooooo cute!!
I find all dog's gorgeous but my 2 favourites are labs and cavs so they are definately gonna be cute if that's the mix.
One thing we are all certain of in this case though, is that they are half cav and so are all gonna be heartbreakers!
Looking forward to hearing all the news and more photos as they grow :-)

Barbara Nixon
6th August 2007, 08:29 PM
There is no guarantee about proportions of Blenheims and rubies from a Blenheim -white carrying ruby mating, like ,though a one in six chance, you won't get a 2 in every six throws of a dice. Its just that there are two possible types ie Blenheim or white carrying ruby.

If you mate two non-dominant tricolours ie Bbss

You can get BBss (dominant tri), bbss (Blenheim) and Bbss (also tri). However , in the latter case, you could have the B from mum and B from dad and vice versa, so there are three chances of tri with one of Blenheim . ie 75% tri, 25% Blenheim.

A friend mated a dominant tri bitch with a white carrying ruby dog and theoretically she should have equal numbers of each colour, but got three black and tans and one tricolour. However, because colour inheritance isn't straightforward, the black and tans were mismarked with white flashes on head and chest.

AT
6th August 2007, 08:41 PM
Okay, I follow that - it's fairly clear genetics. What is the line between a piebald & a wholecolour with white when you are looking at one? Is it not possible to confuse the two since the amount of red markings on Blenheims differ? I've seen some rubies that look, to me, on the verge of possibly being confused with a Blenheim. Obviously, if you knew the genetics after testing them, you would know for sure but if you didn't test them? Isn't there another gene or set of genes detemining how much white or red exactly is on a particular piebald or how much white exactly is on a wholecolour?

.

I always think if they have white feet they are Blen/Tri.
my sisters ruby is from a blen to ruby ( dominant wholecolour) mating & all the pups were ruby with white on their heads very similar to these little ones so i'm guessing dad was something solid coloured

loveisokay
6th August 2007, 09:03 PM
There is no guarantee about proportions of Blenheims and rubies from a Blenheim -white carrying ruby mating, like ,though a one in six chance, you won't get a 2 in every six throws of a dice. Its just that there are two possible types ie Blenheim or white carrying ruby.

If you mate two non-dominant tricolours ie Bbss

You can get BBss (dominant tri), bbss (Blenheim) and Bbss (also tri). However , in the latter case, you could have the B from mum and B from dad and vice versa, so there are three chances of tri with one of Blenheim . ie 75% tri, 25% Blenheim.

A friend mated a dominant tri bitch with a white carrying ruby dog and theoretically she should have equal numbers of each colour, but got three black and tans and one tricolour. However, because colour inheritance isn't straightforward, the black and tans were mismarked with white flashes on head and chest.

This is all very interesting. So I take it from the chances in the first paragraph that it is possible for two Blenheims to have a Blenheim with a heavy red marking?

As for what I put in bold - that was the issue I had in the first place with the table that was linked. It is a general guide, but it seems after hearing what people have had to say that it isn't ALWAYS the case.

Thank you! I have found this very informative! :)

loveisokay
6th August 2007, 09:06 PM
I always think if they have white feet they are Blen/Tri.
my sisters ruby is from a blen to ruby ( dominant wholecolour) mating & all the pups were ruby with white on their heads very similar to these little ones so i'm guessing dad was something solid coloured

My ruby has both on her feet (well, toes on one foot) & on her head (she has the opposite to the little thumb mark Blenheims have!) but I know one of her parents was a tri. I think it depends on their particular parents & grandparents!

AT
6th August 2007, 09:20 PM
My ruby has both on her feet (well, toes on one foot) & on her head (she has the opposite to the little thumb mark Blenheims have!) but I know one of her parents was a tri. I think it depends on their particular parents & grandparents!



white on the extremeties such as toes ,tail tip etc can be caused by enviromental factors aswell.
I read an interesting article that showed how when the pup is forming the pygment cells start at the spine & spread over the body. If the mum was a bit off colour for instance the pygment cells might not reach the extremeties resulting in white marks.

even identical twins wont have exactly the same markings due to enviromental factors

Barbara Nixon
6th August 2007, 09:28 PM
Cathryn will explain better, as she breeds particolours, mainly Blenheim, but the amount of marking , I believe runs in a dog's lines. Teddy is not quite what would be called heavily marked (Don't know about Dad- Homerbrent Expression, Cathryn), but his mum is the same. Joly is very lightly marked. His mum and dad are not heavily marked.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that even a heavily marked Blenheim will have a white muzzle, chest and underparts.

loveisokay
6th August 2007, 10:05 PM
white on the extremeties such as toes ,tail tip etc can be caused by enviromental factors aswell.
I read an interesting article that showed how when the pup is forming the pygment cells start at the spine & spread over the body. If the mum was a bit off colour for instance the pygment cells might not reach the extremeties resulting in white marks.

even identical twins wont have exactly the same markings due to enviromental factors

I didn't know this. Again, thank you for that!

Goes to show a lot can affect these puppies as to what colour they end up!

Cleo's Person
7th August 2007, 02:30 PM
I've only just caught up on all this news now. How wonderful. Thelly you are brilliant to have done such a great job with Ginger. From the photos it seems that Ginger is turning out to be a fantastic mom. I'm so sorry to hear that one little fellow went to the bridge, but these things happen, and I echo Cathryn, perhaps he was too special to be parted from the man upstairs for too long. Thanks for posting the photos. :luv: :luv:

Cathryn
7th August 2007, 05:55 PM
Cathryn will explain better, as she breeds particolours, mainly Blenheim, but the amount of marking , I believe runs in a dog's lines. Teddy is not quite what would be called heavily marked (Don't know about Dad- Homerbrent Expression, Cathryn), but his mum is the same. Joly is very lightly marked. His mum and dad are not heavily marked.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that even a heavily marked Blenheim will have a white muzzle, chest and underparts.


GULP!!! Ermm OK! On the whole heavily marked to heavily marked will produce heavy marked, so if you want to "break" colour you would use a lighter marked dog. However to shoot that theory totally to pieces I once used the late Ch: Storm Trooper by Delhaze at stud to a Tri girl of mine, he is quite heavily marked and she is heavy marked on her one side but nicely marked on the other, in that litter there was a little lad who had ginger ears, eye patches, nice blaze, one patch of tan over his ribs on his left side and a round of tan over his little tush!! :lol:
I also heard another breeder say that heavy to heavy will actually break colour :confused:

As for Ch:Homerbrent Expression he is what I would term as more heavily marked too.
I would certainly agree that all heavily marked Cavaliers be they Blenheims or Tri's have a white muzzle, chest and underpants.

Karlin
8th August 2007, 04:36 PM
Regarding genetics on colour inheritence: the 'theoretically should have had equal numbers' is basic Mendelian distribution estimates, not a 'should have' situation, ever (it is always 'could have'. :thmbsup: As I noted before, the numbers of colours you get out of a possible distribution is an entirely separate matter to what colours are possible.


In other words, the chart is absolutely and totally correct -- though the difficulty is always in knowing whether a dog has which colours dminant and/or recessive; which can often only be determined by breeding certain types of litters. The actual number of puppies with colouring that falls within any of the possibilities that actually come up are ALWAYS just a guesstimate. The basic colours poosibilities though are NOT.

So the same points hold: there are no variations possible on the basic colour chart linked to. This is an extremely well understood area of genetics. Other phenotype expressions such as ticking or whether a dog is heavily marked is an entirely different issue. Please talk to an actual geneticist if you don't believe me, but breeders will confirm this is the case. :) There is every possibility of any number of the POSSIBILITIES turning up incuding NONE when more than one colour is possible.

For example, Mendelian genetics might suggest that a certain combination would be most likely to produce out of four puppies born, two rubies and two blenheims. But you could have any variation of that POSSIBILITY. The odds are that there will be an equal split. But you could have 1 and 3, 2 and 2, or all four one colour. Likewise several matings CAN produce all four colours. But because of the limited number of puppies in a litter, this is very rare.

There are very heavily marked blenheims and rubies with a LOT of white that can seem to be a different colour than they really are.Having particolours in the background of wholecolour lines tends to produce mimarked whoecolours (eg wholecolours with white). I have seen a couple of B&Ts so heavily mismarked that they almost looked like blanketed tris.

loveisokay
8th August 2007, 05:12 PM
That last paragraph of what you wrote pretty much proves my point that the table is a simplification of what colour the puppies in a litter will & can be. It is a separate issue but it is still genetics & still genetics that alter the colours.

cavlover
8th August 2007, 06:27 PM
How are the puppy's doing we haven't heard anything lately?:luv: :luv: :luv:

Thelly
8th August 2007, 08:01 PM
Puppies are doing great. Getting bigger by the minute. I will post next pics when their eyes open - that is the next mile stone. Their noses are starting to blacken also.

Ginger doing fantastic and eating loads.

coconut
8th August 2007, 08:18 PM
that is great thelly keep us posted!!

Karlin
9th August 2007, 08:00 AM
Maybe start some individual threads with pics in the Puppy Gallery. :) This thread has also gotten quite long now and takes in numerous subjects so it would be nice to have the puppies posted to where people can easily find new pictures. Looking forward to them!

jennifer
11th August 2007, 11:53 AM
Are they still doing ok?:flwr: