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View Full Version : Is it possible to get all 4 cav colours in one litter?



Emma n Renco
19th August 2007, 09:15 PM
Hi,

This has got me really puzzled, online at a Dutch ebay type website are puppies for sale as always, and I always look at the cav puppy pictures because they are so cute.. One of the lots for sale has a ruby, blenheim, black and tan and a tri in the litter. 4 pups and all different. It obviously is possible as there are pictures proving it, but is it common? Don't think I should put the link up here, but am just curious about it??

Aileen
19th August 2007, 09:18 PM
Are you sure that they are from the same litter
----Aileen was (Matties Mum)

sallymum
19th August 2007, 09:18 PM
Not an expert but i dont think u can. Id say if u saw a pic of all 4 colours its not proving anything. Id say it just pups from different litters been mixed.

Emma n Renco
19th August 2007, 09:22 PM
Not an expert but i dont think u can. Id say if u saw a pic of all 4 colours its not proving anything. Id say it just pups from different litters been mixed.

Yeah true you must be right, it's the way it is posted that just has 4 pups but are all different colours in a basket and I just took it as them being the same litter. It can't be possible though. I will contact them out of interest and let you know...

Lisa_T
19th August 2007, 09:27 PM
I think it's possible with certain combinations- I've heard of it happening. Although I'm not sure whether the wholecolours would be totally solid- I imagine they might have some white marking on chins etc.

inca
19th August 2007, 09:31 PM
TRI to RUBY can produce all 4 colours depending whats behind both pearents


I had a litter 2 years ago tri mum and ruby dad .....we had 2 black and tan boys :)

Barbara Nixon
19th August 2007, 09:34 PM
Yes it is possible. The parents must be:

1) A black and tan, who carries both red and white, with either the same, a Blenheim, a ruby who carries white, or a tricolour who carries red.

or

2) A tricolour who carries red with a ruby who carries white.

ie BbSs with either BbSs, bbss, bbSs or Bbss

or bbss with BbSs

*Pauline*
19th August 2007, 09:55 PM
I think you'll find it's possible. :D

Karlin
19th August 2007, 09:57 PM
This explains the possible combinations depending on the dominant and recessive colour genes the parents might have (sometimes you cannot know this except by experimental breedings):

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=8738

Emma n Renco
19th August 2007, 10:09 PM
Thanks for that table, so it really could be possible. What a dream litter though - all 4 colours of the puppies!! It would be very hard not to keep them all though :-)

Cathy T
19th August 2007, 10:36 PM
Yes, it is possible. Nancy's Nina had a litter of nine and some of each color.

Cathryn
19th August 2007, 10:41 PM
Yes it most certainly is and there was a VERY famous litter bred by the top breeder Sheila Smith of the famous Salador kennel. She used a Black and Tan dog, Ch: Caderyn Black Tulip to Salador Crumpet(Tri) this resulted in 7 pups of all 4 colours, Sheila was disappointed at first as her longed for Black and Tan bitch was not in the litter, there was a beautiful Blenheim bitch, Salador Cherrybird and a Black and Tan dog who would become Salador Charlock, I quote from her book here "the Blenheim bitch who popped out last of a well marked litter, I got such a shiver down my spine!". But it was Charlock who was to go on to be something REALLY, REALLY special for her, he would win over 40 1st's at Champ Show level (never got a sniff at a Challenge Certificate however!) but it was as a stud dog that he would be most famous, going on to sire the Crufts Challenge Certificate winning Ruby bitch Salador Coppergleam, also Ch:Rheinvelt Ringold Von Salador who was also a Crufts Challenge Certificate winner too. Charlock despite his broken colour pedigree reverted to being wholecolour dominant and was considered, even to this day actually, as one of the most influential wholecolour stud dogs ever, if you have a UK bred Black and Tan then you will almost certainly find him in that dog's pedigree somewhere in the past! Sheila goes to tell us that in his twelfth year he was galloping across his paddock at home when he collapsed and died shortly afterwards, "He never ran up a vets bill in his life and he didn't at the end" she tells us!!

I was also on a well known wholecolour breeders website the other day when I spotted a Blenheim, unusual for them, on looking at the pedigree she has a B/T Father and a Ruby mother!! icon_nwunsure How did this happen I hear you ask? Looking further back into her pedigree she has Blenheim behind both parents and this time it threw forwards!!

Ah! The mysteries of colour inheritance eh??

Emma n Renco
19th August 2007, 11:28 PM
WOW! Glad I asked this question - what a great story! Thanks for that information... what a wonderful science even though it seems like a lottery on first sight :-)

sallymum
20th August 2007, 12:39 AM
Never thought u could get all 4 in one litter. Wow that would be great.

Cathy Moon
20th August 2007, 03:06 AM
That would be exciting to have a litter with all 4 colors! I read Sheila Smith's book and saw the photos of her lovely cavs - I think Salador Cherrybird is one of the prettiest female cavs ever! :lotsaluv:

Cavalli CKCS
26th March 2008, 10:16 PM
Yes it most certainly is and there was a VERY famous litter bred by the top breeder Sheila Smith of the famous Salador kennel. She used a Black and Tan dog, Ch: Caderyn Black Tulip to Salador Crumpet(Tri) this resulted in 7 pups of all 4 colours, Sheila was disappointed at first as her longed for Black and Tan bitch was not in the litter, there was a beautiful Blenheim bitch, Salador Cherrybird and a Black and Tan dog who would become Salador Charlock, I quote from her book here "the Blenheim bitch who popped out last of a well marked litter, I got such a shiver down my spine!". But it was Charlock who was to go on to be something REALLY, REALLY special for her, he would win over 40 1st's at Champ Show level (never got a sniff at a Challenge Certificate however!) but it was as a stud dog that he would be most famous, going on to sire the Crufts Challenge Certificate winning Ruby bitch Salador Coppergleam, also Ch:Rheinvelt Ringold Von Salador who was also a Crufts Challenge Certificate winner too. Charlock despite his broken colour pedigree reverted to being wholecolour dominant and was considered, even to this day actually, as one of the most influential wholecolour stud dogs ever, if you have a UK bred Black and Tan then you will almost certainly find him in that dog's pedigree somewhere in the past! Sheila goes to tell us that in his twelfth year he was galloping across his paddock at home when he collapsed and died shortly afterwards, "He never ran up a vets bill in his life and he didn't at the end" she tells us!!

I was also on a well known wholecolour breeders website the other day when I spotted a Blenheim, unusual for them, on looking at the pedigree she has a B/T Father and a Ruby mother!! icon_nwunsure How did this happen I hear you ask? Looking further back into her pedigree she has Blenheim behind both parents and this time it threw forwards!!

Ah! The mysteries of colour inheritance eh??

Hi Cathryn

Isn't she lovely? I have had to resist asking Lucy and Di to sell her many times, good 'ol Calamity Jane, Dortmund Take A Chance H is a B/T and H Starshine is the most delicous lady with the fleck! But Mark and Michael's Ch Louis was blenhiem so thats were it came from.

Arlene
26th March 2008, 10:52 PM
"Charlock despite his broken colour pedigree reverted to being wholecolour dominant."

Does this mean he only threw whole colour pups, even with that one recessive piebald gene? Is it because he was mostly bred to solids? I'm trying to make sense of it as he should have been able to throw piebald pups with the right female.

Anyway, I have recently run across this explanation of Cavalier coat color inheritance. It has an easy to follow chart at the bottom which shows from which combinations of parents a four coloured litter can come from. It is probably much the same as the one Karlin pointed out earlier but in English.

http://cavalierkingcharles.org.uk/colour_inheritance.html

sins
26th March 2008, 11:24 PM
How desirable are B&T cavaliers? There was one B&T in Daisy's litter(2 Blens) and the B&T bitch was first to go. So do I assume that Daisy's pop was a B&T. I only saw her Blenheim dam and bought Daisy on the strength of the dam's pedigree.
Sins

Cathryn
27th March 2008, 12:11 AM
Hi Cathryn

Isn't she lovely? I have had to resist asking Lucy and Di to sell her many times, good 'ol Calamity Jane, Dortmund Take A Chance H is a B/T and H Starshine is the most delicous lady with the fleck! But Mark and Michael's Ch Louis was blenhiem so thats were it came from.

She is indeed a very beautiful young lady!!! :luv:


"Charlock despite his broken colour pedigree reverted to being wholecolour dominant."

Does this mean he only threw whole colour pups, even with that one recessive piebald gene? Is it because he was mostly bred to solids? I'm trying to make sense of it as he should have been able to throw piebald pups with the right female.

Anyway, I have recently run across this explanation of Cavalier coat color inheritance. It has an easy to follow chart at the bottom which shows from which combinations of parents a four coloured litter can come from. It is probably much the same as the one Karlin pointed out earlier but in English.

http://cavalierkingcharles.org.uk/colour_inheritance.html

To answer your first question, Yes it does indeed! I do not know what bitches were taken to him as I was not active within the breed at that time, but having seen the pics of him and also examples of his progeny I would have seriously considered using him!!


How desirable are B&T cavaliers? There was one B&T in Daisy's litter(2 Blens) and the B&T bitch was first to go. So do I assume that Daisy's pop was a B&T. I only saw her Blenheim dam and bought Daisy on the strength of the dam's pedigree.
Sins


A nice B/T is usually very desirable, sadly(?) wholecolours have long been considered the "poor relations" to the Parti-Colours, and I have to admit that until I bred my first litter of wholecolours they were not exactly at the top of my "Wanted" list. The biggest challenge with the wholecolours is to keep the lovely soft heads, if you can get a nice head on a whole-colour then you're doing well, but I had seen way too many "hard" and "snipey" heads to be really smitten!
For me to see a whole-colour, moreover a RUBY, and say I liked it was almost unheard of!! Yet I did find a nice Ruby boy and use him to one of my Tri girls who has a beautiful generous head, in that litter was Teddy, who knows what the future holds for him??? He has literally a 50-50 whole/parti-colour pedigree, his father has only sired whole-colours despite his own broken coloured history!! Yet on paper his Momma could have had all 4 colours!!

If you think back to when the breed was being "Resurected" the breeders back then had to use what they could to try and get back to the "original" type!!

Off my soapbox now!! :lol:

Arlene
27th March 2008, 12:25 AM
Cathryn, I have always preferred the wholecolor heads to all the others. I'm not a fan of dogs with lots of jowl or heavier muzzles, though and I see much more of that in the parti colors. Snipey, I believe means pointier muzzled, but what do you mean by "hard", and the other term a "generous head". Are you speaking of the amount of padding around the eyes?

I'm trying to discover what appearance qualities others like in this breed!

Arlene

Cathryn
27th March 2008, 12:33 AM
Cathryn, I have always preferred the wholecolor heads to all the others. I'm not a fan of dogs with lots of jowl or heavier muzzles, though and I see much more of that in the parti colors. Snipey, I believe means pointier muzzled, but what do you mean by "hard", and the other term a "generous head". Are you speaking of the amount of padding around the eyes?

I'm trying to discover what appearance qualities others like in this breed!

Arlene

Hi!

"Snipey" for me means little to no under-eye fill and a pointy, lean muzzle.

"Hard" basically means a fixed, almost staring expression, and a "Generous Head" is exactly that, broad skulled, well "set-on" (level to the skull) ears, generous fill under-eye, not too jowly around the throat and muzzle, and most important of all a large, double pigmented eye.

Elude
27th March 2008, 01:01 AM
My good friend (also Zoey's breeder) just had a litter with all four colours. I helped her deliver them and we kept getting more excited as each came out a different colour. Daddy was a ruby and mom was a tri (also Zoey's mom) Heres a pic of them we took on Good Friday.

Ruby, Blen, and Tri are boys. The black and tan is a girl.. my favourite of the bunch.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/Eludemb/DSC04196.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/Eludemb/DSC04190.jpg

Arlene
27th March 2008, 05:12 AM
Thanks Cathryn for that explanation. I fell in love with this breed for its incredible temperament, and it is taking some time for me to get accustomed to its look. I'm still learning what others prefer in it. I grew up with a mother who bred working collies, and have since rescued many herding breed types, so of course I am accustomed to an unpadded face, pointy muzzle, and almond eyes - quite the opposite of the Cavalier!

Arlene

Arlene

Cavalli CKCS
27th March 2008, 11:17 AM
Those pup's aren't badly miss marked either. Hope they turn out just the way you want them.

Evan

PS - The Parti X W/C matings were what put the wholecolour's on the map, with help from my friend Sheila!

Nancy
27th March 2008, 02:53 PM
Here is my 4 color litter of NINE! I kept a blenheim girl. Mom was b/t with tri father bred to blenheim.
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q240/nancyann_photos/9weeks.jpg

*Pauline*
27th March 2008, 03:28 PM
Elude, I can see why you like the black&tan, she's very pretty. :luv:

Nancy, a litter of 9! I've never known of such a big litter. Did you know before the birth that she was expecting that many?

Nancy
27th March 2008, 03:31 PM
The Vet said at her xray that she had at least 8, and when I dropped her off for csection the day before her water broke (they kept her all day) , the vet techs thought they counted TEN. This was the first litter I've raised myself, and let me tell you , I was panicked. Their weights were 4 oz to 9 oz.

*Pauline*
27th March 2008, 03:34 PM
Those are good weights. I bet mum needed a tummy tuck after that lot!!

TillyTommy
27th March 2008, 03:46 PM
That B/T girl is yummy:)

cy1266
27th March 2008, 03:48 PM
Truman's litter had three colors - every color except Blenheim. There were 2 B&Ts (1 boy/1 girl), 1 Ruby (girl) and 1 Tri (girl). Mom is a ruby and dad is a B&T...My breeder has mostly wholecolors and rarely breeds particolors...I wish I had a picture of the whole litter, they were adorable!

Cavalli CKCS
27th March 2008, 06:28 PM
Elude, I can see why you like the black&tan, she's very pretty. :luv:

Nancy, a litter of 9! I've never known of such a big litter. Did you know before the birth that she was expecting that many?

Harvest Belle had 8.

mrsfarmer
27th March 2008, 08:28 PM
This is the cutest pic ever! Oh it would be wonderful to be able to have these little guys/girl running around!

Nancy-Love your litter of 9 too!!


Ruby, Blen, and Tri are boys. The black and tan is a girl.. my favourite of the bunch.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/Eludemb/DSC04196.jpg

Elaine 2
27th March 2008, 11:17 PM
Elude those little babies are so cute I'd have to keep them all, beautiful

babs
28th March 2008, 08:44 PM
That pic is so cute ...it makes me want to have 1 of each:xfngr:
We were away for the weekend at a campsite and I met a guy who had a 1yr. old black and tan cav. named Teddy.We got chatting,well Alex and Teddy got chatting first...it turns out that Teddy came from a family of 5 but his siblings were all blenheims the poor little fella was the odd 1 out.I suppose its a bit like a mam and a dad together.Myself and Michael ie.I have red hair.michael has blonde hair,our 3 kids are that blonde theyre nearly white,yet my mam and dads hair is black yet myself,my 3 brothers and my eldest sister are like strawberry blonde...a posh word for red hair...but my youngest sister has pure black hair? Its all in the genes.Thats not we tell my parents they get some stick off us lot:confused: