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View Full Version : Im picking my CKC pup up 2moro but nervous



sassy.pips
29th August 2007, 02:38 PM
Hi Guys

Im picking my CKC pup up tomorrow but I'm a little nervous now after reading some threads about bad breeders.

I live in Ireland and have read some un-nice things about irish breeders.

I went to view the pups when they were 5 weeks old 3 weeks ago. The pup is 8 weeks old today and Im picking him up 2moro, however Im nervous now. I called my vet and he gave me some good pointers to look out for and check the pup for before I buy. Also the breeder has agreed that it is ok with her for me to get the pup checked after I pick him up to ensure that he is a well puppy.

I didn't realise that there was so much to look into when buying puppies. The last thing I want is to pay 400 euro for a pup that turns put to be sick or worse.

I would be so disapoointed at the same time if I came home empty handed tomorrow after waiting 3 weeks to collect him.

Any advise? How can I check a breeder out without letting her now and further more without any details of the breeder apart from the county she lives in?

Karlin
29th August 2007, 02:59 PM
Yes: see my section on buying puppies in Ireland at my rescue site, www.ckcsrescue.com.

It may be too late now. But the very basics: if the breeder hasn't heart tested her breeding stock, if the parents are younger than 2.5 years old, if she doesn't also know the heart stats of all four grandparents (in which case her breeding pair should be at least FIVE years old and heart clear) and doesn't have certificates to prove all this, and/or isn't IKC registered and giving you an IKC registered puppy, I'd look elsewhere immediately or you have a high risk of early onset heart disease and early death of your cavalier, as well as higher risk of numerous costly problems from dry eye and juvenile cataracts (has she properly vet-checked eyes of her breeding stock), to bad patellas or hips (does she xray hips and patellas?). Her price is suspiciously low for a properly bred dog from health-checked stock with an IKC registration (these days a good IKC health focused breeder would be charging at least €500-700). If she listed her puppies on an online ad site or the small ads in a newspaper and does not have any of the above, I'd also back out of this immediately. If you want to stick with the puppy be aware that you will have a puppy at higher risk for problems. Sadly very few Irish breeders do any of the health testing that is routine elsewhere so you do need to be very careful about who you buy from. Loads of them churn out puppies in this country for an unsuspecting pet market who end up with ill cavaliers that die years before they should, and it makes me *really* angry.

sassy.pips
29th August 2007, 03:19 PM
The breeder told me that she will give me the papers to register the dog with the IKC - Is this sufficient? Is there anyway for me to check that she is a registered breeder or that dam and sire are IKC too? I don't even know anything else about this person apart from her mobile number.

When I went to view the puppies she had 2 bitches that just gave birth. She had a large section of the garden partitioned off for the dogs and then 4 sheds. The bitches were kept in seperate sheds with their own litters. It looked clean. Although I didn't pay too much detail I have to be honest. The lady seemed nice but after reading things on the internet I'm just so confused now.

Obviously I'll make my excuses before I pay and take the pup if I don't feel its right 2moro. But Im hoping it will be ok

*Pauline*
29th August 2007, 03:42 PM
It may be difficult to turn down the pup once you have actually gone to see it tomorrow. It's very early to let the pup go at 8 weeks and this would be a bad sign for me. And the price is very low, why? I wouldn't buy a pup from her. As you have only seen the pup once, I'd pull out now so you are not attached emotionally to it. I'm sure Karlin can put you in touch with good breeders. It can cost a lot of money and heart ache if you get an unhealthy pup. Please read the links Karlin has given you.

ppotterfield
29th August 2007, 03:48 PM
The thing that is hardest for most folks who have do not have experience to understand is that while the health of the puppy at the time you bring him home is important, there are lots of things that can go wrong. What you really need the breeder to go over with you is the health of the puppy's parents and grandparents. First, are the mother and father each at least two and a half years old and if so, do they have certificates (which the breeder should give to you) that they are heart clear, that their eyes are okay and that they do not/have not had problems with their knees or hips; Second, if all of this is okay you should then find out if the grandparents are at least five years old and if so, does she have certifcates showing that they are heart clear at that age. You also need to know if there is a history of syringomyelia in any of her dogs (and she should at least know what that is and be able to discuss it with you). Look at Karlin's links on how to look for and buy a puppy as I may have missed something. What you are trying to avoid is paying for a puppy who is at high risk of inheriting very serious diseases. If you follow these guidelines you cannot be certain that your puppy will never have heart disease, for example, but you have a much much better chance that he or she will be okay. Any higher price you might pay for a puppy from a breeder who does all of these things you will probably save in Vet bills and in heartache.

This is such a difficult thing to do because you go and see the puppies, they are already borne and here and need to be taken care of and your heart tells you to go ahead. If you do, you may be lucky and everything may be okay but you will have supported someone who is not following the breeding protocols which are recommended and are the responsible way to breed to make this breed healthier in the future.

Hopefully there are some folks on this Board in Ireland who could privately e-mail you the names of some responsible breeders if this breeder turns out not to be the right breeder for you. It is worth waiting for the right Cavalier. Good luck.

sassy.pips
29th August 2007, 03:50 PM
If a vet was to check the pup and give it the all clear would you be happy to buy him then?

The breeder did say that I could get him checked and if I wasn't happy I could bring him back.

ppotterfield
29th August 2007, 03:57 PM
"If a vet was to check the pup and give it the all clear would you be happy to buy him then? The breeder did say that I could get him checked and if I wasn't happy I could bring him back."

Please read carefully what we are trying to tell you. While the present health of the puppy is important what you really need to know about if the health of the parents and the grandparents. This will tell you whether the chances are good that your puppy will be a healthy adult or that there is a high risk that your puppy will have health problems as an adult. Try hard to think with your head and not just your heart.

*Pauline*
29th August 2007, 04:01 PM
They all say that, but once the puppy is home, would you be able to return an unhealthy puppy? As ppotterfield said, it's not how healthy the puppy is now, the health problems we are talking about are serious ones that will not show up now.

It sound like a puppy farm that she keeps them in 4 sheds.

sassy.pips
29th August 2007, 04:09 PM
The penny finally dropped for me! Sorry guys I understand now what you're saying - its important to know the history of the mum and dad and grandparents! I'll ask her for this info before I agree to buy

I'll let you know how it goes, fingers crossed!

Clairelou
29th August 2007, 04:13 PM
To reiterate what the others have said, the pups PARENTS and GRANDPARENTS should have clear heart and eye certificates available for viewing, and a copy for you to take away. I adopted two cavaliers in the early 90's and was unaware of the health problems affecting the breed, both developed heart problems, one had dry eye and cost me thousands in the end and untold heartache. The price sounds very low to me. I have a 13 week old from a breeder who did the aforementioned health checks and she cost a LOT more than the price you have mentioned. I also wouldn't buy from someone who reared puppies in a garden shed. I WOULD PULL OUT IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!

*Pauline*
29th August 2007, 04:15 PM
It's not just a case of asking, it's seeing the certificates. I still worry that a good breeder would not let a puppy go at 8 weeks, sorry to the few of you who did get your pups this young. Be careful please.

loveisokay
29th August 2007, 05:06 PM
It's not just a case of asking, it's seeing the certificates. I still worry that a good breeder would not let a puppy go at 8 weeks, sorry to the few of you who did get your pups this young. Be careful please.

Why? :neutral:

vikki
29th August 2007, 05:46 PM
8 to 12 weeks seems to be the time frame, from what I have been told alot of people like the pup to stay with his litter till 10 weeks or more, to get better socialized and to learn how to be a dog. alot of breeder will not let the pups go untill 10 weeks some 12 weeks. there is also another school of thought that after 8 weeks the dog has learned all it is going to learn from it's litter it is already eating on it's own as is ok to leave. it does seem universal that anytime before 8 weeks is not good at all. the pup is much too young and without it's littermates/mates, grows up to be very uncertian in lots of areas and does exibit lots of undesirable traits.

loveisokay
29th August 2007, 05:54 PM
8 to 12 weeks seems to be the time frame, from what I have been told alot of people like the pup to stay with his litter till 10 weeks or more, to get better socialized and to learn how to be a dog. alot of breeder will not let the pups go untill 10 weeks some 12 weeks. there is also another school of thought that after 8 weeks the dog has learned all it is going to learn from it's litter it is already eating on it's own as is ok to leave. it does seem universal that anytime before 8 weeks is not good at all. the pup is much too young and without it's littermates/mates, grows up to be very uncertian in lots of areas and does exibit lots of undesirable traits.

I disagree with the highlighted part.

I also disagree that puppies going at eight weeks suggests anything that could be construed as anything short of a good breeder. I also disagree that all breeders who let puppies leave at seven weeks are bad breeders. In the correct hands, leaving at seven weeks old is paramount. The correct hands are very few & far between, though, I just disagree about the generalisation that seven weeks is "wrong". Yes, most people that let puppies leave that early tend to be irresponsible & not aware of the KC guidelines & want the accidental/money making litter gone as soon as possible but not all, which is what bothers me. I've heard of several very very very experienced dog lovers/handlers who find getting the dog as early as possible (seven weeks) enhances the chance of the puppy fitting in with them & their own motley crue since they are so young & impressionable.

Though, I would like to add - if you've only the one dog & haven't had many then seven weeks will never be okay for you. Eight weeks is pretty damn normal, though, & anyone saying otherwise usually has the size of the breed in mind.

fun1uk
29th August 2007, 06:54 PM
Ive also read that 8 weeks is the normal age to leave.Were picking up Mollie next week who will be 8 weeks old and i feel that im happy with that but i sopose its each to there own.I think most important you must be ready for the pup,if its 7 weeks or 1 yr old.If your not ready and read up on pups then it may be alittle harder than someone who has done all the studying.

Cathryn
29th August 2007, 07:07 PM
Speaking as a breeder myself I feel that I should point out here that most "good" breeders who routinely heart and eye test, who take great pride in their bloodlines and are PROUD of their dogs will be members of breed clubs too. These clubs all have a Code of Ethics, and this states that we will NOT sell any puppy under the age of 8 weeks! Granted there will be breeders who let puppies go at an earlier age and ultimately that is their choice.

Personnaly, after over a decade of breeding this incredible breed and having seen and heard many tales of things happening to such young puppies you will NEVER get a puppy from me that is younger than 10 weeks old!

For example, several years I let an 8 week old pup go to a lovely home, just 1 week later, far too soon for that pup to have had it's full vaccination course I saw that puppy being DRAGGED, Yes that's right DRAGGED down the canal tow path where it was being exposed to goodness only knows what possible chances of infection! :yikes:

From that day on every single puppy I have sold has gone into it's new home FULLY vaccinated, I see it as being the very least thing I can do for my babies, I chose their parents, I bought them into this world, I taught them how to eat solids etc, etc, I have a MORAL OBLIGATION to every single puppy that bears my kennel name, and I have made my choice to not let a single puppy out into the world that is NOT given the very best and healthiest start in life possible and that starts with health testing of the parents and ends with vaccinating the puppy!!

Caavliers are also notoriously slow, they are slower to wean and they are slower to not need their Mum, they are however incredibly sociable for a longer period of time, this has been my personnal experience of the breed. I am NOT saying it is set in stone that they are all like this, far from it! This is me speaking as a breeder and from my own experiences, we are all from different walks of life and all have differing experiences and opinions and we are all entitled to our own opinion, my opinion is 8 weeks is too young to let a pup go, this breeder prefers to hold on until the 10-12 week age personnally!!

Off my soapbox now!!

*Pauline*
29th August 2007, 07:08 PM
I know of several reputable UK breeders who would never consider letting a puppy go until at least 10 weeks as they actually care enough about their puppies to fully vaccinate them before they leave for their new homes as Cathryn said. According to the UK breed Clubs code of Ethics no breeder is allowed to sell a puppy under the age of 8 weeks anyway.

loveisokay
29th August 2007, 07:50 PM
It does state that but it doesn't mean that those who ask for their puppies early & those who comply are wrong or bad to do so. The KC fail to do a lot more that could help these puppies yet they don't! You still see puppy farms KC register their dogs, don't you? You still see puppies with papers for dogs that they are not related to?

Cathryn, you may choose to do it after an experience with an owner but there are plenty who don't & there are even some that bend the rules for certain homes - it's happened to me & I am thankful for it as I felt very comfortable with them as a breeder & they thoroughly home-checked, showed their dogs, tested puppies, rescued dogs, took dogs back that homes could not care for etc. etc. They were not anything short of a "good breeder".

As for vaccinations - plenty of people believe in taking puppies out asap for socialisation as the risk of an aggressive or fearful dog outweighs the infection risks. But that is a whole different kettle of fish.

I just refuse to accept a blanket generalisation that under 7 weeks is "wrong" & that "good breeders" don't let puppies go under 10 weeks. In fact, I refuse to accept a blanket generalisation for anything at all.

Anyway, that's my 2p. I know it's contraversial but I honestly believe this.

WoodHaven
29th August 2007, 08:22 PM
It does state that but it doesn't mean that those who ask for their puppies early & those who comply are wrong or bad to do so. The KC fail to do a lot more that could help these puppies yet they don't! You still see puppy farms KC register their dogs, don't you? You still see puppies with papers for dogs that they are not related to?

Cathryn, you may choose to do it after an experience with an owner but there are plenty who don't & there are even some that bend the rules for certain homes - it's happened to me & I am thankful for it as I felt very comfortable with them as a breeder & they thoroughly home-checked, showed their dogs, tested puppies, rescued dogs, took dogs back that homes could not care for etc. etc. They were not anything short of a "good breeder".

As for vaccinations - plenty of people believe in taking puppies out asap for socialisation as the risk of an aggressive or fearful dog outweighs the infection risks. But that is a whole different kettle of fish.

I just refuse to accept a blanket generalisation that under 7 weeks is "wrong" & that "good breeders" don't let puppies go under 10 weeks. In fact, I refuse to accept a blanket generalisation for anything at all.

Anyway, that's my 2p. I know it's contraversial but I honestly believe this.

*****************************************

When I belong to a club that has a code of ethics-- I FOLLOW IT (or I'd resign). If one doesn't follow those guidelines -- what others guidelines are they ignoring?? What other shortcuts are they taking???

IF a mill follows the guidelines (for AKC, KC whatever) they have the right to register the pups-- remember, it isn't against the law to mass produce a possibly inferior animal.

Breeders who keep their pups LONGER do so for the puppies protection. To home them early would save breeders lots of time and money. To spend the time and money innoculating & socializing pups is absolutely exhausting. What possible benefit to the puppy is it to home it before 8-10 weeks?

Sorry- but taking out a to young pup in public with no regard to possible parvo/distemper illnesses is irresponsible. There are dogs dying of Parvo here that have been innoculated. IF you've ever seen a pup die of parvo- well it is awful.

loveisokay
29th August 2007, 08:33 PM
*****************************************

When I belong to a club that has a code of ethics-- I FOLLOW IT (or I'd resign). If one doesn't follow those guidelines -- what others guidelines are they ignoring?? What other shortcuts are they taking???

IF a mill follows the guidelines (for AKC, KC whatever) they have the right to register the pups-- remember, it isn't against the law to mass produce a possibly inferior animal.

Breeders who keep their pups LONGER do so for the puppies protection. To home them early would save breeders lots of time and money. To spend the time and money innoculating & socializing pups is absolutely exhausting. What possible benefit to the puppy is it to home it before 8-10 weeks?

Sorry- but taking out a to young pup in public with no regard to possible parvo/distemper illnesses is irresponsible. There are dogs dying of Parvo here that have been innoculated. IF you've ever seen a pup die of parvo- well it is awful.

I disagree & have said why above.

I don't believe it is "irresponsible" to take your puppy out early to meet big dogs, little dogs, gravel, grass, trees, children, adults, park benches & so on. The risk of a poorly socialised dog FAR OUTWEIGHS the risk of picking up a disease. At least, it does largely in this country since most dogs are vaccinated against it & vets are aware of outbreaks if you ask them about it. I think it is FAR more "irresponsible" to not acknowledge the importance of this. Yes, it would be absolutely heart-breaking if the puppy caught something, but it is a smaller risk than a dog that is afraid of dogs, people, anything when he goes on a walk. I'd agree it would be irresponsible if the vaccinations were not intended whatsoever, but going out early is NOT irresponsible if the intention is to socialise! I've followed the vet's guides to not go out early with a dog before & missed out on the key period for socialising a young puppy before the fear stage & had a VERY big problem with the dog's personality because of that - he was very close to being PTS for his fear aggressive behaviour having bit my grandmother!

WoodHaven
29th August 2007, 08:38 PM
How can one disagree that following ETHICAL guidelines is right?

How can one disagree that if you qualify to register a dog - one can?

How can one disagree that if a breeder keeps a pup longer -- it is MORE work for the breeder?

How can risking a dogs health - in favor of needing outside socialization be good?

totally confused

loveisokay
29th August 2007, 08:45 PM
How can one disagree that following ETHICAL guidelines is right?

Because there are situations that are not the norm, you cannot account for EVERYTHING in life when you put down guidelines. It's naive to think otherwise.


How can one disagree that if you qualify to register a dog - one can?

I didn't.......


How can one disagree that if a breeder keeps a pup longer -- it is MORE work for the breeder?

I didn't. :-| I never said a bad word about people who keep the puppies longer, it's a matter of choice - I believe neither are wrong.


How can risking a dogs health - in favor of needing outside socialization be good?

totally confused

Because a dog without socialisation will more likely be put in a rescue or even PTS because of this lack of socialisation.

What I want to know is how someone who has worked alongside dogs so long can not understand how fundamental this period in a puppy's life is in defining how confident & able they are to cope with life!

Everyone is different, everyone brings up their dog different. Some people believe in negative training some positive, some think that socialisation outweighs infection risks & some don't, some like to get a puppy earlier to socialise, some prefer a breeder to socialise the puppy with a limited amount of dogs. NONE are "irresponsible". There are no right answers. The KC may claim to be correct but they aren't always as every dog owner & their dog is different. Vets may tell you one thing but medical matters are on their mind.

WoodHaven
29th August 2007, 08:53 PM
A pup that catches parvo will likely be DEAD. Socialization can be had in safe bits and pieces until he/she is fully vaccinated.
The rules of sevens-- tips on puppy socialization is a great example



To belong to any club -- you follow the rules or get out. It is the ethical thing to do. What could "not be the norm" be? If you start making a bunch of excuses for not following the rules, it is a slide downhill. Why not 6 weeks??? why not 5-- I figure if I home the pups at five weeks I'd save a lot of money. Luckily, I don't breed to make money.

rowannutmeg
29th August 2007, 08:54 PM
Hmmm, that's different than over here. Way more dogs on the rescue lists here are there because they have some condition or disease the owner doesn't want to deal with than any sort of anti-social behavior.

pinkpuppy
29th August 2007, 09:00 PM
Excuse me since I neither have a puppy at this point.

Wouldn't the puppy be more confident at socialization if it had the support of its litter mates and the care provided from the breeders including interaction with family members, i.e. children, friends, and relatives? Not to mention from it's own mother?

Sorry if I offended any of the experts on the board.

loveisokay
29th August 2007, 09:01 PM
Following rules is not the same as being "ethical" whatsoever.

You tread across paths & outside with your filthy outdoor shoes bringing in anything bad outside inside anyway.

The minimum for a responsible owner that understands the point I am making would not go to six weeks. It is seven weeks minimum for a reason. That reason is the phase where the puppy is a great big walking sponge waiting to learn following weaning. There's only so much a young dog can learn from another young dog & it's mother compared to a new home with an older dog they don't know that can help it settle in sooner, pick up things quicker etc. I have heard many dog owners who buy dogs to do agility or whatever training they like going for a dog early as they feel this week is imperitive in getting a relationship with the dog suitable for their passion for the sport.

If you disagree, fine, but don't call people that disagree with "rules" unethical, bad or even irresponsible.

WoodHaven
29th August 2007, 09:02 PM
True-- very few cavaliers have been given up due to lack of socialization issues. Actually, I've seen many mill dogs (bad mills) that in the course of months have had drastic positive personality changes-- these dogs got little to no socialization for YEARS.

loveisokay
29th August 2007, 09:03 PM
Excuse me since I neither have a puppy at this point.

Wouldn't the puppy be more confident at socialization if it had the support of its litter mates and the care provided from the breeders including interaction with family members, i.e. children, friends, and relatives? Not to mention from it's own mother?

Sorry if I offended any of the experts on the board.

A puppy needs to meet big dogs, fat dogs, small dogs, thin dogs, loud dogs, quiet dogs & so on. A breeder with one breed, with small puppies do not teach as much as a variety can do.

Of course, if a person does not understand the importance of such a young age in a puppy then they should not take on the responsibility to try this as they can make it worse. I would never condone below 8 weeks for anyone other than very experienced owners & I agree that puppies over 10 weeks old are perfect for novice owners.

Does that help?

*Pauline*
29th August 2007, 09:03 PM
I researched socialisation issues as I got Dylan a little beyond 12 weeks. It turned out really in Dylan's favour to be with the breeder for that bit longer as he was with his litter mates, lots of older dogs and my breeders family including young grandchildren. The whole vaccine process, if all done after the dog leaves the breeder can mean a dog is somewhat restricted socially for about a month as they can't be put on the floor outside at all.

In short, if a dog is with the breeder longer, shots given as well then socialisation is done by the breeder in a safe environment. :D

*Pauline*
29th August 2007, 09:06 PM
Excuse me since I neither have a puppy at this point.

Wouldn't the puppy be more confident at socialization if it had the support of its litter mates and the care provided from the breeders including interaction with family members, i.e. children, friends, and relatives? Not to mention from it's own mother?

:xctly:Just what I said :)

loveisokay
29th August 2007, 09:06 PM
Hmmm, that's different than over here. Way more dogs on the rescue lists here are there because they have some condition or disease the owner doesn't want to deal with than any sort of anti-social behavior.

That may be the difference between our countries then, most dogs in kennels here are there because either owners have died, the owners are neglectful or more commonly because at a year old or just younger a novice owner who knows very little realises that having a dog isn't as simple as blowing a whistle (so many think this of Border Collies - that they are born trained :rolleyes: ).

What I have seen of rescues in the US on TV here, I would agree with your statement - rescues here are a bit different by the sounds of it..

WoodHaven
29th August 2007, 09:07 PM
Following rules is not the same as being "ethical" whatsoever.

You tread across paths & outside with your filthy outdoor shoes bringing in anything bad outside inside anyway.

The minimum for a responsible owner that understands the point I am making would not go to six weeks. It is seven weeks minimum for a reason. That reason is the phase where the puppy is a great big walking sponge waiting to learn following weaning. There's only so much a young dog can learn from another young dog & it's mother compared to a new home with an older dog they don't know that can help it settle in sooner, pick up things quicker etc. I have heard many dog owners who buy dogs to do agility or whatever training they like going for a dog early as they feel this week is imperitive in getting a relationship with the dog suitable for their passion for the sport.

If you disagree, fine, but don't call people that disagree with "rules" unethical, bad or even irresponsible.
######################################

People who break the code of ethics here-- can be brought up on ethics charges-- fines and or expulsion from the club-- so yes, breaking the rules can have long term negative consequences.

No, anyone coming into the house has to follow the 'rules' here. IF you've been where there have been dogs-- you change clothes before you enter the house. If you've been to work-- take off the shoes at the bare minimum.

Cesar Milan wouldn't get a pup before 8 weeks either. My dogs are socialized by ALL my other dogs-- no mom and pups-- generations of dogs.

rowannutmeg
29th August 2007, 09:07 PM
I don't know that anyone's saying everyone has to agree to all the rules - just that if you say you're following them, that you do. If you don't like them, don't be a part of that organization.

WoodHaven
29th August 2007, 09:10 PM
I don't know that anyone's saying everyone has to agree to all the rules - just that if you say you're following them, that you do. If you don't like them, don't be a part of that organization.


YES!!! Exactly and in so few words!!!:rah::dogwlk:
By belonging to a club you are basically saying that you "share" a code of ethics. It is almost like advertising.

loveisokay
29th August 2007, 09:14 PM
######################################

People who break the code of ethics here-- can be brought up on ethics charges-- fines and or expulsion from the club-- so yes, breaking the rules can have long term negative consequences.

I don't doubt it. It still remains that the clubs do not account for the variety of life!


No, anyone coming into the house has to follow the 'rules' here. IF you've been where there have been dogs-- you change clothes before you enter the house. If you've been to work-- take off the shoes at the bare minimum.

You change outside the house?


Cesar Milan wouldn't get a pup before 8 weeks either. My dogs are socialized by ALL my other dogs-- no mom and pups-- generations of dogs.

Cesar Milan? Is that what you are comparing these people who get puppies at seven weeks to? Cesar Milan? The type I had in mind were those who clicker positive training & like to do a variety of sports with their dogs as a passion along with do dog training classes in their areas. That ain't Cesar Milan! They are just about the most responsible people with the most knowledge of dogs you can find.

I'm clearly not getting through to you with what I have to say. Generations of the same sized small well mannered, sweet natured breed do NOT count as proper socialisation. Where's the big GSD or the small Yorkie? Where's the variety?

You're right about if you don't like a club, leave it. It's just a shame that if anyone tries to do such a thing they are IMMEDIATELY shot down as a potential mill. :rolleyes:

*Pauline*
29th August 2007, 09:25 PM
They are just about the most responsible people with the most knowledge of dogs you can find...

...I'm clearly not getting through to you with what I have to say.

There is NOTHING responsible about taking a dog out who isn't covered by his shots.

In reply to the second comment, please have a bit of respect for an older (no offence Sandy) and more experienced breeder.

Karlin
29th August 2007, 09:29 PM
Loveisokay-- you are being put on moderation. There's no need to attack people or post such flippant replies to board members who are trying to hold a discussion -- much less people who know significantly more about dogs, puppies and breeding than you do, with all due respect. You will need to have your posts approved which I or the moderators will do as fast as possible as long as they are relevant and aren't deliberately provocative in such an unconstructive way. I know you like pushing people's buttons as that is clear from many of your posts over time, but this is ridiculous and not conducive to discussion on some important issues.

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On young animals -- homing puppies or kittens under seven weeks is actually ILLEGAL in many countries and US states because it is so widely accepted that it is seriously damaging to the social development of a young animal to take it from mother and littermates at this very early stage of its personality and temperament formation. Every national welfare organisation I know of firmly states this as well if you go through their materials on homing puppies or kittens. It is also against the ethics of every breed club and national kennel club to rehome dogs at this age as well. The IKC, AKC, CKCSC, ACKCSC and KC for example all state this as part of their code of breeder ethics. I cannot imagine how any ethical breeder could look at a puppy or kitten at this age and possibly believe it is mature enough to be taken from sibling and parent and placed out, unvaccinated and at risk.

Over several years of rescue work I have dealt with young and adult dogs and cats that have serious and often, unresolvable problems related *directly* to the fact that they were rehomed at too young an age. Talk to any behaviouralist and they will have instances of young dogs that needed to be pts because of this -- in particular, this is often the root probem of 1) dangerously aggressive dogs and 2) dogs that have no idea how to socially relate to other animals and frequently, people. With cats you can also get aggression or potentially serious problems like eating fabric and attempting to suckle into adulthood as they were never properly weaned by a mother (it sounds amusing but can cause very serious health issues as they often become wool or fabric eaters and die from having the threads intwine around their intestines).

One of the top priorities when we got underage puppies or kittens into rescue (eg anything under 7.5 weeks) was/is to get them immediately in with adult cats or dogs and puppies/kittens around their own age to try and prevent these problems by letting the young animal learn normal behaviours and be corrected by siblings/parent. A human can NOT fill in for this role except to a very narrow degree. You see this with orphaned zoo animals as well -- keepers always try to keep the animal socialised to other animals.

When I fostered kittens (still ocassionally do) I was lucky my two big tomcats adore kittens and happily will lie in the midst of them playing with them and correcting rude behaviour. :lotsaluv: As with puppies you can see how important this shaping is at this age and all the yelping or saying 'no' you do will not make up for that interaction -- this kind of socialisation is vastly more important than meeting people and other dogs. Indeed one reason puppies homed at 10-12 weeks are so much better behaved generally is that by this age they have lost most bite inhibition and other rude behaviours due to careful teaching from mum and reactions from siblings. Whereas if it is a human teaching this to a young puppy (under 10 weeks), this phase can go on and on and on.

My cat Ambrose was dumped at around 5 weeks in a box and when I took him the requirement was for a home with older cats and to be homed without his brother as without adult cat discipline he had become a bully to his brother and difficult generally. He was tame to humans but a wild thing behaviour-wise and here, he got plenty of discipline from my two female cats. :winkct: Thanks to this he is is a gentle and loving adult -- and a gentle 'uncle' to those foster kittens -- but retains a few strange behaviours typical of kittens pulled too young from their actual mothers.

WoodHaven
29th August 2007, 09:32 PM
I don't doubt it. It still remains that the clubs do not account for the variety of life!

No, they are concerned with the well being of pups


You change outside the house?

No, but I could, there is space in the garage to change



Cesar Milan? Is that what you are comparing these people who get puppies at seven weeks to? Cesar Milan? The type I had in mind were those who clicker positive training & like to do a variety of sports with their dogs as a passion along with do dog training classes in their areas. That ain't Cesar Milan! They are just about the most responsible people with the most knowledge of dogs you can find.

My point was even someone who is dog knowledgeable wouldn't tempt me to break the rules.

I'm clearly not getting through to you with what I have to say. Generations of the same sized small well mannered, sweet natured breed do NOT count as proper socialisation. Where's the big GSD or the small Yorkie? Where's the variety?

My point was waiting a couple of weeks won't make a difference. Many training clubs around here don't want pups until they are 12 weeks. I've had rescues (Amber for one, Rosie for another) who lived their lives in a crates until they was 6 years old. Talk about no socialization. IF 6 years didn't kill their spirit of adventure, I doubt 12 weeks will either.

You're right about if you don't like a club, leave it. It's just a shame that if anyone tries to do such a thing they are IMMEDIATELY shot down as a potential mill. :rolleyes:

"potential" byb - yes IT is one of the signs. Not the ultimate, not the worst. Remember that many people don't know what to look for, don't see the clues until too late. I am not saying wherever you got your pup from was bad. We try to help people make decisions based on ALL our collective experiences. Yours is important. I want everyone to go into cavalier ownership with their eyes wide open to the possible problems. Peace

Cathryn
29th August 2007, 09:51 PM
Reading back on the original postings I see that the breeder has 4 sheds in her back garden and that when the poster went to view the litter at 5 weeks old the pups and Mum were out in one of these sheds?

This sets alarm bells off for me, as to how if at all possible, a litter of puppies can become socialised to ordinary day to day household activity even, if they are shut up in a shed in the back garden?

As for early socialisation (less than 8 weeks old) with an un-vaccinated puppy, how on earth can you possibly be certain that EVERY large, small, fat thin etc dog that the puppy meets has been vaccinated? Have you ever seen a puppy die from Parvovirus? Have you ever had to deal with this horrendous condition? Parvo VERY recently brought Birmingham Dogs Home crashing to a standstill, are you saying that for the sake of 2-3 weeks more with it's Mum and littermates and learning a very correct and natural pecking order, it is worth risking a very young puppy to possibly contracting this?? Sorry but I cannot and will not accept this!! 8 weeks old is TOO YOUNG full stop for a Cavalier puppy to leave it's momma and litter mates!

Karlin
29th August 2007, 09:56 PM
Parvo is absolutely hideous and puppies that are not vaccinated can very easily acquire it if introduced even to vaccinated dogs because the virus can live for months, remaining on grass, pavement, shoes, paws... being tracked everywhere.

When you do get it in an establishment (like a pound) there are long quarantine periods and the need for massive disinfection procedures way beyond just scrubbing the kennels -- it is so hard to kill.

It is a very cruel and often painful death for the puppies as well. At least they usually go quickly because their immune systems are so immature. They need long term intensive care treatment at a vets to make a recovery. Nothing terrifies a breedr , pound or kennel more than having parvo on the premises.

pinkpuppy
29th August 2007, 10:17 PM
*small note*:flwr:

Just want to thank all the experienced breeders and our adminstrator Karlin for keeping CavalierTalk Board a great place to learn about our beloved Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.:lotsaluv:

Without the vast knowledge contributed by all on the board I would not have learned from my past experience. I have been enriched 10 fold since joining this board. Hopefully my patience will payoff with a Cavalier of my own soon.:paw: :paw:

Thank you all newbies, breeders, and our admin! :flwr: :flwr: :flwr:

:backto2topic:

Cathy T
30th August 2007, 12:36 AM
It sound like a puppy farm that she keeps them in 4 sheds.



Reading back on the original postings I see that the breeder has 4 sheds in her back garden and that when the poster went to view the litter at 5 weeks old the pups and Mum were out in one of these sheds?


Excellent points Cathryn and Pauline!! My thoughts exactly. A respected and reputable breeder would never keep her Cavaliers in a shed. It just isn't done. Let's disregard that she is placing puppies at 7 weeks...that is bad enough, but that they are being housed in a shed is a huge red flag.

I brought Jake home at 10 weeks and Shelby at 12 weeks. Both of my dogs came into my home very well socialised. My breeder's family was around them, her other Cavaliers, they spent the majority of their initial 10 and 12 weeks in the kitchen/family room exposed to noises and comings and going, and most importantly their mom and their siblings. Puppies do not need to be exposed to a wide variety of stimuli at 7 weeks in order to be properly socialized.

I'm so sorry this discussion was so badly sidetracked. Bottom line...this does not sound like a good breeder. I would not purchase this puppy and continue to research a different breeder. I don't like the 7 weeks, the sheds and the lack of proof of health testing.

WoodHaven
30th August 2007, 12:49 AM
Excellent points Cathryn and Pauline!! My thoughts exactly. A respected and reputable breeder would never keep her Cavaliers in a shed. It just isn't done. Let's disregard that she is placing puppies at 7 weeks...that is bad enough, but that they are being housed in a shed is a huge red flag.

I brought Jake home at 10 weeks and Shelby at 12 weeks. Both of my dogs came into my home very well socialised. My breeder's family was around them, her other Cavaliers, they spent the majority of their initial 10 and 12 weeks in the kitchen/family room exposed to noises and comings and going, and most importantly their mom and their siblings. Puppies do not need to be exposed to a wide variety of stimuli at 7 weeks in order to be properly socialized.

I'm so sorry this discussion was so badly sidetracked. Bottom line...this does not sound like a good breeder. I would not purchase this puppy and continue to research a different breeder. I don't like the 7 weeks, the sheds and the lack of proof of health testing.

Sorry for my participation in getting this important message off track.. I lost my patience. ;)

Cathryn
30th August 2007, 01:54 AM
Sorry for my participation in getting this important message off track.. I lost my patience. ;)

Understandably too Sandy! :hug: You are a truly caring and responsible breeder and had I not had to go out whilst this discussion was going on I dread to think how I may have reacted too!

Ginger's Mom
30th August 2007, 01:56 AM
Sorry for my participation in getting this important message off track.. I lost my patience. ;)

No, it wasn't you at all... you know that. After reading your posts in this thread, I only have more respect for you as a responsible and caring breeder.

pinkpuppy
30th August 2007, 02:00 AM
Sandy, I'm glad you are here on the board with the best of the best breeders. I value your opinion and sorry this topic got so heated. :flwr:

WoodHaven
30th August 2007, 02:20 AM
Thanks guys. Your support on the board and privately has been very much appreciated. I try not to sound too opinionated -- because we are all learning everyday. We are literally a global cavalier community here on this board and different opinions should be shared and debated.
I've been in awe of many of you. Your dedication to your dogs during adversity (eye issues, knee problems, cancer) makes me proud to be one included as one of this group.
We can all feel good about wanting the best for this special breed. Sandy

Cathy T
30th August 2007, 02:29 AM
No apologies necessary Sandy. We're so glad to have you and your experience on the board. Open discussion and differing opinons are to be expected...thank goodness we're not all cut from the same cookie cutter, hwo boring!! ;)

*Pauline*
30th August 2007, 10:12 AM
Yikes, where's sassy.pips though? I hope she lets us know what happened. Hope we didn't frighten her off. It was me who first mentioned the 8 weeks thing and I'd like to thank you all for explaining it so well.

Maxwell&me
30th August 2007, 03:36 PM
WOW~ Dont know how I missed this.....
Sandy- This just confirms that your the class act I always knew you were....Thank you.

Sassy.Pips- Please let us know when you get a minute how things went, I do understand its hard to wit however a healthy puppy is worth every minute.

Aileen
30th August 2007, 05:52 PM
First time I have made a comment it is far better to wait and get a health puppy
My first cavalier who was called Mattie came from a puppy/farm mill he was a loverly little dog but he had a heart trouble from when we got him:cry*ing: I would not want anyone to go though what we went though We could not get insurace because it was something the vet pick up He lived 4 years always in pain and in the end had a heart attack and something like a fit So please wait and get a puppy from a good breeder that is al I can say
-----Aileen and the gang (Barney---Jazzie---Sam)

BarbMazz
30th August 2007, 07:06 PM
All four of my dogs were brought home between 10-12 weeks. They all seemed more confident and faster to pick up on training at that age, as compared to other family dogs I've brought home over the years.

That said, there are so many socialization things that can be accomplished in the home before vaccinations are completed! There's a list I have somewhere, that a trainer had given me, about introducing your dog to hundreds of things and items without ever leaving your house... like hairdryers, hats, shoes, lawnmower noise, blenders, music, I mean ANY thing that's new to a new puppy. Introducing a puppy to new dogs can happen soon enough... I do think puppies are easy to socialize with other dogs because they are so attracted to them. Waiting until a puppy is vaccinated completely won't hinder other-dog socialization one bit, imo!

Cathryn
30th August 2007, 10:12 PM
I agree totally with this! My lot were 9 weeks yesterday and are already well used to being "cuddled" (or should that be "mauled" :lol:) by the kids, and are attacking all the other older dogs and being put gently but firmly back in their place by them, learning a hierarchy. Today I was in stitches! I had the washing machines on and 2 were sat in front of one and 3 in front of the other watching the washing spin around!! :lol: They aren't too sure about the vacuum, but are getting brave enough to bark at it, and as for the broom and the mop, I don't know how I get their run clean at times! Sassy was hanging on for dear life to the mop at one stage! :lol:

Puppies reared correctly in a busy household are generally prepared for almost anything life throws at them, we have also taken them out to watch the cars going by (from the safety of our arms!), they have met our neighbours children, our elderly neighbours etc, etc.

pinkpuppy
30th August 2007, 10:50 PM
^That is exactly the type of caring socialising I expect from a reputable breeder.

My pup did not have the chance not only with the health issues, more problems with daily activities really made him shake like a leaf. He was even afraid of the post man who he saw daily until the end. He had so many seizures it just broke my heart to watch him wither away.

Cathryn
31st August 2007, 12:27 AM
^That is exactly the type of caring socialising I expect from a reputable breeder.

My pup did not have the chance not only with the health issues, more problems with daily activities really made him shake like a leaf. He was even afraid of the post man who he saw daily until the end. He had so many seizures it just broke my heart to watch him wither away.


I am so incredibly sorry to hear this :( At least the brief time he spent with you was filled with love and one to one devotion to him :lotsaluv: :hug: :hug:

*Pauline*
31st August 2007, 06:59 AM
^That is exactly the type of caring socialising I expect from a reputable breeder.

My pup did not have the chance not only with the health issues, more problems with daily activities really made him shake like a leaf. He was even afraid of the post man who he saw daily until the end. He had so many seizures it just broke my heart to watch him wither away.


Oh now I see why your comments on this thread have been poignant. I didn't know you lost a puppy. :hug:

Andrea Howell
31st August 2007, 02:20 PM
Hi,:)
I'd just like to thank everyone for your insightful and passionate comments on this thread. You've answered a question i was thinking of asking without me having to ask it. ;) Which is one of the reasons I love this board.
When I first bought my cav, I honestly thought I had done enough research into the breed which would make it easier to understand the breed before i bought her. Now I know that I hadn't done enough. There are a hundred and one things to know about this breed and dogs in general.
Sometimes when you think you are asking the right person questions as they seem to know alot, really even they don't know everything. It is better to put a question on this board and get a huge response to your question with so many different opinions from lots of different experiences. Although I must admit sometimes I feel a little out of my depth and am scared of asking a question incase I get put down for being inexperienced. I know I'm inexperienced but we all have to start somewhere don't we? Anyway, I just wanted to say thankyou to all you very caring, very passionate people that make reading this forum so interesting and a real learning experience for everyone. Sorry if I waffled on a bit. I've a habit of that. :o

WoodHaven
31st August 2007, 02:47 PM
Andrea-- please don't be scared to ask a question. And remember that you may get many different answers to your questions, it doesn't always mean people are wrong or right.

Cathryn
31st August 2007, 03:24 PM
Can only echo what Sandy has said Andrea!! Never be afraid to ask, we are all still learning new things all the time, I know I certainly am!! You will get lots of advice etc on here as so many people have had so many different experiences with the breed!! :thmbsup:

Cathy T
31st August 2007, 03:56 PM
Andrea - don't ever hesitate to ask a question. Unless you tell us you are tying your dog to chain 10 hours a day and not feeding him you won't ever get chastised for asking a question. Sometimes questions that you might think are silly can start some really interesting conversations. Jake is now 5 years old and I am still learning something new all of the time. I can't tell you how many times I'll read a question, start reading the answers, and think "Gosh, I didn't know that. Learned something new"

Keep the questions coming and don't be shy. No one will ever belittle or ridicule you. It's not allowed.

WoodHaven
31st August 2007, 03:57 PM
My vet once told me that he'd rather I'd come in with a dozen possibly "silly" questions about my dogs health, than have me too afraid to ask about something that could be life threatening.