Im picking my CKC pup up 2moro but nervous

Hi Guys

Im picking my CKC pup up tomorrow but I'm a little nervous now after reading some threads about bad breeders.

I live in Ireland and have read some un-nice things about irish breeders.

I went to view the pups when they were 5 weeks old 3 weeks ago. The pup is 8 weeks old today and Im picking him up 2moro, however Im nervous now. I called my vet and he gave me some good pointers to look out for and check the pup for before I buy. Also the breeder has agreed that it is ok with her for me to get the pup checked after I pick him up to ensure that he is a well puppy.

I didn't realise that there was so much to look into when buying puppies. The last thing I want is to pay 400 euro for a pup that turns put to be sick or worse.

I would be so disapoointed at the same time if I came home empty handed tomorrow after waiting 3 weeks to collect him.

Any advise? How can I check a breeder out without letting her now and further more without any details of the breeder apart from the county she lives in?

Yes: see my section on buying puppies in Ireland at my rescue site, www.ckcsrescue.com.

It may be too late now. But the very basics: if the breeder hasn't heart tested her breeding stock, if the parents are younger than 2.5 years old, if she doesn't also know the heart stats of all four grandparents (in which case her breeding pair should be at least FIVE years old and heart clear) and doesn't have certificates to prove all this, and/or isn't IKC registered and giving you an IKC registered puppy, I'd look elsewhere immediately or you have a high risk of early onset heart disease and early death of your cavalier, as well as higher risk of numerous costly problems from dry eye and juvenile cataracts (has she properly vet-checked eyes of her breeding stock), to bad patellas or hips (does she xray hips and patellas?). Her price is suspiciously low for a properly bred dog from health-checked stock with an IKC registration (these days a good IKC health focused breeder would be charging at least €500-700). If she listed her puppies on an online ad site or the small ads in a newspaper and does not have any of the above, I'd also back out of this immediately. If you want to stick with the puppy be aware that you will have a puppy at higher risk for problems. Sadly very few Irish breeders do any of the health testing that is routine elsewhere so you do need to be very careful about who you buy from. Loads of them churn out puppies in this country for an unsuspecting pet market who end up with ill cavaliers that die years before they should, and it makes me *really* angry.

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The breeder told me that she will give me the papers to register the dog with the IKC - Is this sufficient? Is there anyway for me to check that she is a registered breeder or that dam and sire are IKC too? I don't even know anything else about this person apart from her mobile number.

When I went to view the puppies she had 2 bitches that just gave birth. She had a large section of the garden partitioned off for the dogs and then 4 sheds. The bitches were kept in seperate sheds with their own litters. It looked clean. Although I didn't pay too much detail I have to be honest. The lady seemed nice but after reading things on the internet I'm just so confused now.

Obviously I'll make my excuses before I pay and take the pup if I don't feel its right 2moro. But Im hoping it will be ok

It may be difficult to turn down the pup once you have actually gone to see it tomorrow. It's very early to let the pup go at 8 weeks and this would be a bad sign for me. And the price is very low, why? I wouldn't buy a pup from her. As you have only seen the pup once, I'd pull out now so you are not attached emotionally to it. I'm sure Karlin can put you in touch with good breeders. It can cost a lot of money and heart ache if you get an unhealthy pup. Please read the links Karlin has given you.

The thing that is hardest for most folks who have do not have experience to understand is that while the health of the puppy at the time you bring him home is important, there are lots of things that can go wrong. What you really need the breeder to go over with you is the health of the puppy's parents and grandparents. First, are the mother and father each at least two and a half years old and if so, do they have certificates (which the breeder should give to you) that they are heart clear, that their eyes are okay and that they do not/have not had problems with their knees or hips; Second, if all of this is okay you should then find out if the grandparents are at least five years old and if so, does she have certifcates showing that they are heart clear at that age. You also need to know if there is a history of syringomyelia in any of her dogs (and she should at least know what that is and be able to discuss it with you). Look at Karlin's links on how to look for and buy a puppy as I may have missed something. What you are trying to avoid is paying for a puppy who is at high risk of inheriting very serious diseases. If you follow these guidelines you cannot be certain that your puppy will never have heart disease, for example, but you have a much much better chance that he or she will be okay. Any higher price you might pay for a puppy from a breeder who does all of these things you will probably save in Vet bills and in heartache.

This is such a difficult thing to do because you go and see the puppies, they are already borne and here and need to be taken care of and your heart tells you to go ahead. If you do, you may be lucky and everything may be okay but you will have supported someone who is not following the breeding protocols which are recommended and are the responsible way to breed to make this breed healthier in the future.

Hopefully there are some folks on this Board in Ireland who could privately e-mail you the names of some responsible breeders if this breeder turns out not to be the right breeder for you. It is worth waiting for the right Cavalier. Good luck.

If a vet was to check the pup and give it the all clear would you be happy to buy him then?

The breeder did say that I could get him checked and if I wasn't happy I could bring him back.

"If a vet was to check the pup and give it the all clear would you be happy to buy him then? The breeder did say that I could get him checked and if I wasn't happy I could bring him back."

Please read carefully what we are trying to tell you. While the present health of the puppy is important what you really need to know about if the health of the parents and the grandparents. This will tell you whether the chances are good that your puppy will be a healthy adult or that there is a high risk that your puppy will have health problems as an adult. Try hard to think with your head and not just your heart.

They all say that, but once the puppy is home, would you be able to return an unhealthy puppy? As ppotterfield said, it's not how healthy the puppy is now, the health problems we are talking about are serious ones that will not show up now.

It sound like a puppy farm that she keeps them in 4 sheds.

The penny finally dropped for me! Sorry guys I understand now what you're saying - its important to know the history of the mum and dad and grandparents! I'll ask her for this info before I agree to buy

I'll let you know how it goes, fingers crossed!

To reiterate what the others have said, the pups PARENTS and GRANDPARENTS should have clear heart and eye certificates available for viewing, and a copy for you to take away. I adopted two cavaliers in the early 90's and was unaware of the health problems affecting the breed, both developed heart problems, one had dry eye and cost me thousands in the end and untold heartache. The price sounds very low to me. I have a 13 week old from a breeder who did the aforementioned health checks and she cost a LOT more than the price you have mentioned. I also wouldn't buy from someone who reared puppies in a garden shed. I WOULD PULL OUT IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!

It's not just a case of asking, it's seeing the certificates. I still worry that a good breeder would not let a puppy go at 8 weeks, sorry to the few of you who did get your pups this young. Be careful please.

*Pauline* said:

It's not just a case of asking, it's seeing the certificates. I still worry that a good breeder would not let a puppy go at 8 weeks, sorry to the few of you who did get your pups this young. Be careful please.

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Why? :neutral:

8 to 12 weeks seems to be the time frame, from what I have been told alot of people like the pup to stay with his litter till 10 weeks or more, to get better socialized and to learn how to be a dog. alot of breeder will not let the pups go untill 10 weeks some 12 weeks. there is also another school of thought that after 8 weeks the dog has learned all it is going to learn from it's litter it is already eating on it's own as is ok to leave. it does seem universal that anytime before 8 weeks is not good at all. the pup is much too young and without it's littermates/mates, grows up to be very uncertian in lots of areas and does exibit lots of undesirable traits.

vikki said:

8 to 12 weeks seems to be the time frame, from what I have been told alot of people like the pup to stay with his litter till 10 weeks or more, to get better socialized and to learn how to be a dog. alot of breeder will not let the pups go untill 10 weeks some 12 weeks. there is also another school of thought that after 8 weeks the dog has learned all it is going to learn from it's litter it is already eating on it's own as is ok to leave. it does seem universal that anytime before 8 weeks is not good at all. the pup is much too young and without it's littermates/mates, grows up to be very uncertian in lots of areas and does exibit lots of undesirable traits.

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I disagree with the highlighted part.

I also disagree that puppies going at eight weeks suggests anything that could be construed as anything short of a good breeder. I also disagree that all breeders who let puppies leave at seven weeks are bad breeders. In the correct hands, leaving at seven weeks old is paramount. The correct hands are very few & far between, though, I just disagree about the generalisation that seven weeks is "wrong". Yes, most people that let puppies leave that early tend to be irresponsible & not aware of the KC guidelines & want the accidental/money making litter gone as soon as possible but not all, which is what bothers me. I've heard of several very very very experienced dog lovers/handlers who find getting the dog as early as possible (seven weeks) enhances the chance of the puppy fitting in with them & their own motley crue since they are so young & impressionable.

Though, I would like to add - if you've only the one dog & haven't had many then seven weeks will never be okay for you. Eight weeks is pretty damn normal, though, & anyone saying otherwise usually has the size of the breed in mind.

Ive also read that 8 weeks is the normal age to leave.Were picking up Mollie next week who will be 8 weeks old and i feel that im happy with that but i sopose its each to there own.I think most important you must be ready for the pup,if its 7 weeks or 1 yr old.If your not ready and read up on pups then it may be alittle harder than someone who has done all the studying.

Speaking as a breeder myself I feel that I should point out here that most "good" breeders who routinely heart and eye test, who take great pride in their bloodlines and are PROUD of their dogs will be members of breed clubs too. These clubs all have a Code of Ethics, and this states that we will NOT sell any puppy under the age of 8 weeks! Granted there will be breeders who let puppies go at an earlier age and ultimately that is their choice.

Personnaly, after over a decade of breeding this incredible breed and having seen and heard many tales of things happening to such young puppies you will NEVER get a puppy from me that is younger than 10 weeks old!

For example, several years I let an 8 week old pup go to a lovely home, just 1 week later, far too soon for that pup to have had it's full vaccination course I saw that puppy being DRAGGED, Yes that's right DRAGGED down the canal tow path where it was being exposed to goodness only knows what possible chances of infection! :yikes:

From that day on every single puppy I have sold has gone into it's new home FULLY vaccinated, I see it as being the very least thing I can do for my babies, I chose their parents, I bought them into this world, I taught them how to eat solids etc, etc, I have a MORAL OBLIGATION to every single puppy that bears my kennel name, and I have made my choice to not let a single puppy out into the world that is NOT given the very best and healthiest start in life possible and that starts with health testing of the parents and ends with vaccinating the puppy!!

Caavliers are also notoriously slow, they are slower to wean and they are slower to not need their Mum, they are however incredibly sociable for a longer period of time, this has been my personnal experience of the breed. I am NOT saying it is set in stone that they are all like this, far from it! This is me speaking as a breeder and from my own experiences, we are all from different walks of life and all have differing experiences and opinions and we are all entitled to our own opinion, my opinion is 8 weeks is too young to let a pup go, this breeder prefers to hold on until the 10-12 week age personnally!!

Off my soapbox now!!

I know of several reputable UK breeders who would never consider letting a puppy go until at least 10 weeks as they actually care enough about their puppies to fully vaccinate them before they leave for their new homes as Cathryn said. According to the UK breed Clubs code of Ethics no breeder is allowed to sell a puppy under the age of 8 weeks anyway.

It does state that but it doesn't mean that those who ask for their puppies early & those who comply are wrong or bad to do so. The KC fail to do a lot more that could help these puppies yet they don't! You still see puppy farms KC register their dogs, don't you? You still see puppies with papers for dogs that they are not related to?

Cathryn, you may choose to do it after an experience with an owner but there are plenty who don't & there are even some that bend the rules for certain homes - it's happened to me & I am thankful for it as I felt very comfortable with them as a breeder & they thoroughly home-checked, showed their dogs, tested puppies, rescued dogs, took dogs back that homes could not care for etc. etc. They were not anything short of a "good breeder".

As for vaccinations - plenty of people believe in taking puppies out asap for socialisation as the risk of an aggressive or fearful dog outweighs the infection risks. But that is a whole different kettle of fish.

I just refuse to accept a blanket generalisation that under 7 weeks is "wrong" & that "good breeders" don't let puppies go under 10 weeks. In fact, I refuse to accept a blanket generalisation for anything at all.

Anyway, that's my 2p. I know it's contraversial but I honestly believe this.

loveisokay said:

It does state that but it doesn't mean that those who ask for their puppies early & those who comply are wrong or bad to do so. The KC fail to do a lot more that could help these puppies yet they don't! You still see puppy farms KC register their dogs, don't you? You still see puppies with papers for dogs that they are not related to?

Cathryn, you may choose to do it after an experience with an owner but there are plenty who don't & there are even some that bend the rules for certain homes - it's happened to me & I am thankful for it as I felt very comfortable with them as a breeder & they thoroughly home-checked, showed their dogs, tested puppies, rescued dogs, took dogs back that homes could not care for etc. etc. They were not anything short of a "good breeder".

As for vaccinations - plenty of people believe in taking puppies out asap for socialisation as the risk of an aggressive or fearful dog outweighs the infection risks. But that is a whole different kettle of fish.

I just refuse to accept a blanket generalisation that under 7 weeks is "wrong" & that "good breeders" don't let puppies go under 10 weeks. In fact, I refuse to accept a blanket generalisation for anything at all.

Anyway, that's my 2p. I know it's contraversial but I honestly believe this.

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When I belong to a club that has a code of ethics-- I FOLLOW IT (or I'd resign). If one doesn't follow those guidelines -- what others guidelines are they ignoring?? What other shortcuts are they taking???

IF a mill follows the guidelines (for AKC, KC whatever) they have the right to register the pups-- remember, it isn't against the law to mass produce a possibly inferior animal.

Breeders who keep their pups LONGER do so for the puppies protection. To home them early would save breeders lots of time and money. To spend the time and money innoculating & socializing pups is absolutely exhausting. What possible benefit to the puppy is it to home it before 8-10 weeks?

Sorry- but taking out a to young pup in public with no regard to possible parvo/distemper illnesses is irresponsible. There are dogs dying of Parvo here that have been innoculated. IF you've ever seen a pup die of parvo- well it is awful.

WoodHaven said:

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When I belong to a club that has a code of ethics-- I FOLLOW IT (or I'd resign). If one doesn't follow those guidelines -- what others guidelines are they ignoring?? What other shortcuts are they taking???

IF a mill follows the guidelines (for AKC, KC whatever) they have the right to register the pups-- remember, it isn't against the law to mass produce a possibly inferior animal.

Breeders who keep their pups LONGER do so for the puppies protection. To home them early would save breeders lots of time and money. To spend the time and money innoculating & socializing pups is absolutely exhausting. What possible benefit to the puppy is it to home it before 8-10 weeks?

Sorry- but taking out a to young pup in public with no regard to possible parvo/distemper illnesses is irresponsible. There are dogs dying of Parvo here that have been innoculated. IF you've ever seen a pup die of parvo- well it is awful.

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I disagree & have said why above.

I don't believe it is "irresponsible" to take your puppy out early to meet big dogs, little dogs, gravel, grass, trees, children, adults, park benches & so on. The risk of a poorly socialised dog FAR OUTWEIGHS the risk of picking up a disease. At least, it does largely in this country since most dogs are vaccinated against it & vets are aware of outbreaks if you ask them about it. I think it is FAR more "irresponsible" to not acknowledge the importance of this. Yes, it would be absolutely heart-breaking if the puppy caught something, but it is a smaller risk than a dog that is afraid of dogs, people, anything when he goes on a walk. I'd agree it would be irresponsible if the vaccinations were not intended whatsoever, but going out early is NOT irresponsible if the intention is to socialise! I've followed the vet's guides to not go out early with a dog before & missed out on the key period for socialising a young puppy before the fear stage & had a VERY big problem with the dog's personality because of that - he was very close to being PTS for his fear aggressive behaviour having bit my grandmother!