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View Full Version : Need Help trying to Trace a Cavalier Line



moonbeams
14th September 2007, 06:52 PM
I know this is a longshot but maybe someone out there can help me.
I live in Northern Ireland but maybe some of this line have turned up in the UK or Southern Ireland.

My old stud dog died several years ago aged 15, I had bought one of his pups to show, unfortunately this dog was stolen and never recovered.

The last litter he sired, he was approx 12 years old and I am very much hoping that some of his progency are still living, failing that, some closely related ones.

He was registered with the Kennel Club under the name Dark Prince of Holywood.

His Sire was Starways Scarlet Pimpernel
His mum was Sorata Hollie Dolly

if you know of anyone who might have a dog with Dark Prince of Holywood in its pedigree, please let me know or ask them to get in touch with me.

Many Thanks!

Cathryn
14th September 2007, 07:18 PM
Hi!

OK this is a longshot in the dark, especially as the site I am going to direct you to is currently undergoing a HUGE overhaul and the pedigree's section is down right now, BUT, try going to www.cavaliersonline.com. This is the very best Cavalier Pedigree search engine/database I know of! Might be worth e-mailing the site owner and see what she can tell you of your late boys descendants??

Good Luck in your quest !!

Karlin
14th September 2007, 07:18 PM
Do you mean you owned the stud dog, or this dog belonged to a show breeder and was the stud dog of a puppy you bought? He must have been of very good quality for the breed club to have given the needed special permission for him to be bred at such an old age -- that is rarely agreed to except in exceptional cases (it was for example for Ronnoc True Luck, a very important Irish stud that influenced a lot of UK and US as well as Irish lines :). )

Have you tried using the online pedigree databases to search for related registered dogs belonging to show breeders? That would be a good starting point to find dogs that might have the potential to be returned to a breeding programme and having this lineage. :) Two of them are linked to below:

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=8896

This is primarily a pet owner-focused site with a strong ethos towards neutering and spaying pets (because they are sold as pets, not dogs with show or breeding potential, and because of the health issues in the breed that require very careful and knowledgeable breeding :thmbsup:). We have a few expert show breeder members too, but most would be in the US.

Given the focus here on health and responsible breeding, I am sure you can understand that I certainly wouldn't be encouraging pet owners of a dog with this lineage to consider breeding a pet quality dog especially if they have no idea of the heart status of parents, as the dog shouldn't usually be bred without that information anyway according to the MVD protocol.

Good luck on tracking down a suitable dog. Have you also spoken to the clubs for the various countries? I would think a few of the show breeders within those clubs would likely know of a dog with this background as many are pedigree encyclopedias. :)

Barbara Nixon
14th September 2007, 07:40 PM
You could also pm Ruth, a member of this forum, as she has an extensive data base of pedigrees, going way back.

moonbeams
14th September 2007, 10:49 PM
Hiya! and thanks for your help..

Let me explain, my Cavs are my pets, I adore them!

I did my research, bided my time and after 4-5 years of looking and getting ripped off and losing £300 to one "top breeder" whos high up in some Cavalier club, I thought I'd finally found what I was looking for, to start off a little bit of "showing", only one problem, I got ripped off again.. so much for Cav clubs and show groups, frankly at this point I wash my hands completely of them all, and after hearing what goes on behind the scenes, I can't believe some of these people call themselves dog lovers.

I have in my little Cav family a gorgeous looking girl, who I love to bits, she fits the KC critera exceptionally well, except for the things you can't see...with Luxating patella, grade 3-4 in both legs, shes totally deaf in both ears, and has eye problems and skin problems amongst other things. (and shes only 2 years old!) And this came from a well known show kennel whos dogs appear to be doing exceptionally well in the ring this year. But then many of these top show kennels don't seem to really care about health, just that their dogs fit the KC criteria, and I am sorry if I sound bitter but this is all happened to me recently over the past month so it's quite a raw wound.

What I can without doubt assure you of is the fact I am quite certain I wouldn't EVER wish anything like my poor little girl upon anyone by breeding anything irresponsibly. :( I just want a Cav from a line I "know" without doubt doesn't have as many of these serious hereditary diseases.

Thank you for all the help you've given me, I hope I've not upset anyone with my post, it certainly isn't my intention to, maybe I've just been really unlucky or something with the people I've met.

Bet
15th September 2007, 01:24 PM
Could I join in here just to say ,that I think many of the Cavalier Health Problems could be blamed on the Show Scene .

Whatever is the Flavour of the Month ,then the Cavalier Breeders will flock to use him or her .

I just wonder if care is taken to have that particular Cavalier Health Tested before being mated .

Bet

Cathryn
15th September 2007, 01:43 PM
Could I join in here just to say ,that I think many of the Cavalier Health Problems could be blamed on the Show Scene .

Whatever is the Flavour of the Month ,then the Cavalier Breeders will flock to use him or her .

I just wonder if care is taken to have that particular Cavalier Health Tested before being mated .

Bet


Reasonable Comment, "Popular Sire Syndrome" can reasonably be attributed to a narrowing of the gene pool and therefore increasing the health problems the breed is sadly plagued with these days.

I am an occassional exhibitor, who has NEVER used any of the "Flavours of the Month" at stud, I know of many others who haven't too, for that very reason, are we therefore to be classed in the same way? My dogs are health tested throughout their lives and I will only use dogs that have been likewise tested.

Let us not forget the NUMEROUS indiscriminate breeders who pump out litter after litter and who's dogs have probably never even seen a vaccination needle let alone a cardiologist or opthalmologist in their lives. These are the people who produce litters of sickly puppies that give the concscientous breeders a bad name!
I had an enquiry recently and upon finding out how much I was asking the lady bought from a well known local puppy farmer instead for about half what I was asking, the sad part of this is that the puppy she bought has already cost her over £500 in vets fee's in 4 weeks!! The breeder when approached about the pups health problems merely commented that she was not prepared to take the pup back and maybe they should just have it put down and buy another one instead!!

Yes there are many show folk out there, but there are far more "Hobby Breeders", "Puppy Farmers" or "Puppy Millers" out there breeding these dogs. I would recommend a study of several issues of the breed record supplement to find out exactly what I mean!!;);)

Ruth
15th September 2007, 02:49 PM
:( I just want a Cav from a line I "know" without doubt doesn't have as many of these serious hereditary diseases.



Sadly you can never 'know' without doubt. MVD and SM can crop up anywhere, that is the difficulty in eradicating them. I have read that it is thought SM is in all lines which is tragic. However, I think that it is not exclusively a cavalier disease, just that cavaliers are a victim of their own popularity and publicised health testing, also a smaller gene pool. Alot of breeds kept their health testing under wraps and their health problems. Not so with cavaliers, there are good, health conscious breeders out there.
With great dismay I have watched this breed that I fell in love with way back in the 60's succumb to the state it is in now, mainly down to greed, and yet the overall look and conformation of the breed is much improved to what it was then, in my view.
I agree with Bet's 'Popular Sire Syndrome' - alot of modern breeders just don't seem to know how to read pedigrees and look at what created the 'Popular Sire' and to consider siblings etc.,
One of my pet hates is that breeding whole colours to parti colours seems to be the norm these days. By all means use a whole colour to improve on your pigment, but some of the older breeders would turn in their graves to see what is happening now.
Most of my gang are rescues these days, but if I were to seek another puppy I would start by looking at the longevity of a breeders dogs, I think Bet will agree with me here, cavaliers should be reaching double figures and frequently, these breeders are out there.

moonbeams
15th September 2007, 03:16 PM
Well, I am almost sorry I asked here now, I didn't think such a request would bring up such problems. :confused:

I do know that this line does have longevity, My dog lived to 15, it's parents lived to double figures, and according to the breeders back in this line, their parents also reached double figures when I contacted them and asked.

I don't really understand why it's such a big deal that I would like a pup from a line I am familiar with and grew up with because regardless of the other ways I've searched out a Cav pup I've simply lost more and more money, came up against more and more short lived Cavs with various diseases. I've avoided all the usual pit-falls like puppy farms etc etc, invested years of time and searching, went through scores of breeders, and not just in Ireland.

I do know there are no guarantees, but I personally would feel happier buying from stock I am familiar with. And if I am honest, I prefer the older-type Cavs, with a bit more sturdiness about them.

Cathryn
15th September 2007, 04:27 PM
Hi!

Don't be sorry you asked this question first of all! We like a bit of a debate now and again, I personnally think along the lines that we are all from different walks of life and we all have our own, and often, VERY, differing opinions and points of view, we are entitled to that and should respect others opinions as being exactly that, THEIR opinion!!

You are not being unreasonable in expecting/trying to find a dog of similar breeding to your wonderful old lad either, if it ain't broke then don't fix it springs to mind here!! :lol:

HOWEVER! As you have said these are the "older" lines, often times the breeders of these dogs have given up breeding or sadly passed away and the breeding stock from their kennels has been dispersed wide and far, I know Karlin herself has experienced this with the late, great "Ronnoc" kennels in Ireland.

Sadly, as you have found out, buying from a well known breeder has no more guarantee of a puppy living to a great age/ being health problem free, than buying from some-one less known or even a puppy mill/farmer, that is the one thing we have no control over and no right to guarantee, the life expectancy of the puppy! I am, like many others trying to raise the age of onset of MVD within my own dogs, as I breed infrequently this will be a long haul for me and my line personnally, but I persevere and that is as much as I can do right now!

Yes there are people breeding these beautiful dogs who are "Commercially" minded, but there are just as many who do actually care about their dogs and want to better and improve on the breed too!!

Karlin
15th September 2007, 07:22 PM
As Ruth notes, things are more complex than just looking for a line that once had a healthy and long-lived ancestor as the breed has not been very well served in the interim, with so many breeders now given the breed's popularity, and by any measure, few following even the basic heart protocols and much resistence now to testing for syringomyelia (SM) as well.

Unfortunately the lifespan of dogs since even a decade ago has changed considerably. Since the time when your old stud would have been active, many breeders have focused almost entirely on using the same small number of sires (causing a high concentration of a few genes, an issue known as 'popular sire syndrome'). In addition, the two serious health conditions of MVD and SM have grown more widespread and at least with SM, more severely symptomatic. The reason is that both these conditions are believed to be polygenetic and sadly, it seems some of the tiny handful of founding dogs for the breed left by the 1940s had the basic genes for these conditions. As the breed is so closely interrelated and as these dogs were bred over and over to each other it has meant that the range of genes needed for the conditions to express themselves have become ever more likely to crop up and ever more likely to produce more sever cases of these conditions.

That means you best bet is definitely NOT to simply rely on what may have been good lines in the past -- many of these, some statistically research is indicating now, have long since lost whatever strength they had in general across the lines and now perhaps just certain branches of those lines, combined with other lines, will produce the pups most likely to live long and healthy lives.

The fact that you have had bad luck with so many dogs of different lines is a testimony to how huge this problem now is.

The best tool breeders have at the moment is both their knowledge of good historical lines, and health testing, not just for their individual sire or dam but ideally in related dogs. For SM, for example, there are clear indications that less affected or clear dogs come in clusters of related dogs.

Let's use Ronnoc as an example of how complicated genetics now are. According to a couple of researchers, it is likely that Ronnoc is one of only a tiny handful of older lines that has a very good probability of producing dogs at very low risk for SM. However according to a computer scientist and researcher running complex statistical testing on pedigrees, this is only for a certain BRANCH of Ronnoc and it entirely depends on what other lines may have been bred in since then.

The evidence? I have two Ronnoc dogs. One is a very rare all clear dog without either the skull malformation or syringomyelia. There are almost NO cavaliers with this profile amongst hundreds that have been MRId now. Yet this dog's half brother -- same father -- which I also own, has symptomatic syringomyelia. They have the exact same pedigree on one side and share some immediate ancestors on their mothers' sides -- but one is of the probable very good lineage and one has SM. Ronnoc True Luck is BTW considered to be one of the best dogs in the SM probability stakes but again it all depends on how his lines have developed since then. Sadly that line has ended more or less with the death of the breeder this year.

My personal feeling is that the best approach is to work with breeders who follow the MVD protocol and also MRI their breeding stock and work with the recommended SM breeding guidelines:

http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/breeding/breeding/breeding.html

Research so far is showing that litters from dogs fitting into the guidelines are producing litters with a very low incidence of SM and mild rather than severe skull malformation. Likewise breeders who work with the MVD protocol have found they can produce far lower incidence of early onset heart murmurs. However neither of these sad conditions will probably ever be eradicated because they are 1) almost certainly polygenetic and 2) so widespread.

Personally I think SM is a far more worrying development than MVD as MVD can be managed to a fair degree but SM is costly to diagnose and to treat and can be extremely painful for the dog. And it appears to be as genetically widespread as MVD.

moonbeams
15th September 2007, 08:22 PM
I cannot disagree, but it still does not make me wish to discount the older lines that my dog came from. Ronnoc is a line I am very familiar with and we are lucky to have 4 dogs with that line in their breeding, mixed with, Sukeara, Homerbrent and Glennor. Again these older lines appear (so far) to have given us wonderful, healthy dogs. Their littermates also show no signs of SM, MVD (as we are in contact with a good many people who bought from the litter) or any of the other diseases familiar with Cav's, so, crossed fingers, so far, so good.

I should have pointed out that the "stud" dog I owned was given to me because the breeder was a family friend, and not happy with the show kennels who purchased it and in the end refused to sell it (interestingly enough, the kennels who wanted it were very well known in the showring at the time), it was given to us with the agreement that they could use the dog as a stud by themselves.

Ruth
15th September 2007, 08:27 PM
I cannot find anything at present for Dark Prince of Holywood, is it Holy, Holly or even (looking at parents) Holliewood?
However, the parents both have nice pedigrees. I will continue with my search for him though.

Barbara Nixon
15th September 2007, 08:42 PM
Sadly I had an example of a good line not producing a long lived dog. Though Izzy died only a few weeks short of his 10th birthday, he had very bad mvd for the last two years and a murmur even before that, yet his father was heart clear at the same age and was still alive at 15.

sins
15th September 2007, 09:19 PM
Hi Moonbeams,
I think you should persist with your efforts to find a dog with the lineage you want.I have my dog since March now and she was sold to me on the basis that her dam was a Ronnoc bitch and that the progeny was much sought after for breeding.I didn't really research the sire's pedigree because the name wasn't instantly recognisable.Knowing the potential problems with the breed I just took a chance because the breeder was local and was helpful and informative and her dogs had a nice environment.
Soooo, my princess is a ronnoc dog on three sides and her pedigree has exactly the same dogs named over and over again going back for several generations.I take solace in the fact that her dam is a healthy six year old, the sire is now nine and in good shape and grandsire is 14 and in rude health.There are no guarantees with genetics and always the potential for surprises.
I sincerely hope that Ronnoc dogs are not being snapped up by backyard breeders who hope to trade on their reputation.
Good luck in your search for a puppy and let us know how you get on.
Sins

moonbeams
15th September 2007, 09:39 PM
Hiya again and thanks for trying to help me.. I'll quite possibly pursue this until my deathbed! :lpy: who knows maybe I am nuts and it's just a romantic dream and hope of mine. But miracles do happen :)

It's definately Holywood with one `L` Ruth. I'm trying another avenue at the moment, and trying to track down the breeders who used him. the breeders who gave us Dark Prince of Holywood owned both the stud dog; Starways Scarlet Pimpernel (aka Reuben) and Sorata Hollie Dolly (aka Hollie) though I know for certain they don't have Cav's anymore.. They may possibly still have kept records of who they sold the pups to.


I sincerely hope that Ronnoc dogs are not being snapped up by backyard breeders who hope to trade on their reputation.
I should point out I am "not" a breeder, I just have pets. :razz: It just so happens our dogs pedigrees have well known show dogs and affixes in them. Including one of my old time favorite dogs, a Black and Tan boy called Sukeara the Druid.

Bet
16th September 2007, 10:41 AM
I agree with Ruth in what she says about Long Lived Cavaliers.
Many of the Long Lived Cavaliers' ages that Iv'e collected have also had Long Lived Sire and Dams .
I know I'm on my Soap Box now,but I really feel that until Manadatory Health Tests are introduced ,then the Health Problems in Cavaliers wont improve much .
The Cardiologist who is involved with the UK CKCS Club ,mentioned in a Cavalier Magazine that he hasnt seen much improvement in the Cavalier Heart Problem in the past 10 years .

Why cant Breeders agree to an Open Health Register ,that would surely go in some way to help ,

It would curtail activities of the Puppy Farmers and those Cavalier Breeders who are just Breeding Cavaliers for the money .
Unfortunately in the Kennel Gazette in an article written by the kennel Club Chairman ,Ronnie Irving ,he is agin Health Tests ,so I guess this wont help the future of the Cavalier Breed Health-wise .

Bet

moonbeams
16th September 2007, 12:04 PM
I agree completely, what I don't understand is why the KC will not bring that in, it would also possibly put an end to puppy farms to some degree if they include "all" pedigree breeds and only veterinary checked dogs could be used to breed with. I've had Cavs a long time, and the rate at which the genetic health problems have escalated has become ridiculous. I can well see them becoming so bad healthwise that they may well become "extinct" in my lifetime. And yet, the Kennel Club appear to me, to be doing nothing to stop it?


The back half of the Cavalier King Charles spaniel’s skull typically is too small to accommodate the full volume of the brain’s cerebellum, and so it squeezes through the foramen magnum – the hole at the back of the skull – partially blocking the flow of cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) down the spinal cord. The variable pressure created by the abnormal flow of CSF is believed to create the SM cavities in the spinal cord.

If "this" comment taken from a site I use is even part-way true then why aren't the KC changing their breed standard to allow responsible breeders to use Cavs with a skull structure that might help reduce SM in the breed?

I have enough on my plate atm with one sick dog and a few ops coming up for her and anyway, I think this is a bit off topic and a different debate for a different thread maybe.

Ruth
16th September 2007, 01:19 PM
I asked for help from another pedigree collector in the States and she has just sent me this information, which you probably know anyway .............He is registered with the KC DOB 21/11//1989 Black and Tan. He had 3 mates and twenty four offspring registered with the KC.

So, you reckon he sired his last litter around 2001, do you know the name of the bitch he mated or the owners name?

Bet
16th September 2007, 04:20 PM
I've argued with the Kennel Club here in Britain for many years asking that question .

Why wont they refuse to Register Puppies whose Sire and Dams have not been Health Tested .
The answer is always the same ,they are not going to do that .

Even the KC 's much publicised Accredited Breeders Scheme doesnt ask those Breeders to do Health Tests on their Breeding Stock
Has the Kennel Club just no interest in the Health Problems in many Breeds

I know they give money towards helping in Research ,but surely by not Registering Puppies whose Parents have not been Health Tested would go such a long way in eliminating Health Problems in many Breeds.
But the question has to be being asked ,would they lose too much Money from Puppy Farmers etc if this was carried out.

Bet

moonbeams
16th September 2007, 04:43 PM
Thanks Ruth, thats more than the KC have given me when I contacted them several years ago, still don't know why they don't have a searchable database for pedigrees up there.

Didn't realise he had so many offspring... but then I wasn't that interested in that side of things, I just kept my agreement with the people I got him off. As far as I remember the original breeders worked alongside another kennel, and its those I am trying to trace, but I've no idea what the affix for them were, I do remember where they lived, and know they don't live there now, might be able to track down where they moved to by asking around the neighbourhood.
My mum is trying to see if she can go through someone else who is related to them.. so fingers crossed.

Your friend doesn't happen to know offhand what the Dams name is of any of the offspring? it might trigger my memory a bit..

oh and I can't be sure of the exact year or age he was, as I have a problem with my memory so it can be a bit sketchy at times.

Ruth
16th September 2007, 05:19 PM
I've argued with the Kennel Club here in Britain for many years asking that question .

Why wont they refuse to Register Puppies whose Sire and Dams have not been Health Tested
But the question has to be being asked ,would they lose too much Money from Puppy Farmers etc if this was carried out.

Bet
Think you have hit the nail on the head there Bet IMO. That is why I won't add to their coffers by transferring ownerships, name changes etc., I think they have alot to answer for and as has been mentioned in an earlier post, anyone just needs to study the Breed Record Supplements to see how much puppy farming is going on under their very noses!!

Cathryn
16th September 2007, 05:33 PM
Thanks Ruth, thats more than the KC have given me when I contacted them several years ago, still don't know why they don't have a searchable database for pedigrees up there.

Didn't realise he had so many offspring... but then I wasn't that interested in that side of things, I just kept my agreement with the people I got him off. As far as I remember the original breeders worked alongside another kennel, and its those I am trying to trace, but I've no idea what the affix for them were, I do remember where they lived, and know they don't live there now, might be able to track down where they moved to by asking around the neighbourhood.
My mum is trying to see if she can go through someone else who is related to them.. so fingers crossed.

Your friend doesn't happen to know offhand what the Dams name is of any of the offspring? it might trigger my memory a bit..

oh and I can't be sure of the exact year or age he was, as I have a problem with my memory so it can be a bit sketchy at times.


Was he registered to you? If so and you still have his registration number to hand, you should be able to approach the kennel club for a list of all progeny he sired, Yeah I know adding pennies to their coffers again for the info, but a small price to pay for such a quest surely?? ;)

Aileen
16th September 2007, 06:01 PM
I had seen some of the names you were looking for

moonbeams
16th September 2007, 11:35 PM
Ahh I didn't know the KC did that, thanks for the heads up. Last time I contacted them with his registration number and everything they told me, basiclly they couldn't help me. That was quite a few years ago though.

Bet: Its really sad isn't it when even the KC morality comes down to being money based.

But then, just how ethical is anyone breeding any dog with any hereditary or genetic faults in it, because lets face it, most of them have them.

Sure, they might be "graded" in some instances, or it might be known that MVD won't turn up till the dogs a bit older, but does it really make it right? it is after all, still a death sentence no matter how you look at it.

If the Kennel club won't change their breed standards for the good of a breeds health, well, it speaks volumes. Maybe the only ethical breeders are those who breed dogs without "any" genetic or bad DNA - and those would likely have to be dogs who don't meet the KC breed standards. (and the huge question is, are there any dogs left that are without bad genes?):paw: