View Full Version : Bratty Puppy Friend Advice- warning, LONG! :)
27th September 2007, 08:12 PM
Hey everyone (WARNING this is kind of long winded! http://www.ckcsboard.com/messageboard/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif)
One of my close friends got a minature dachshund puppy a few months ago, who is now 4.5 months old. She comes over at least once a week to play with Fiona, and while Heidi is only 5 pounds compared to Fiona's 14, she TERRORIZES Fiona. Fiona has never ever been much of a player, so she's just starting to learn, and her version of playing is running around the house, not playing rough. Heidi CONSTANTLY will chase Fiona, and bite onto her ears and not let go! http://www.ckcsboard.com/messageboard/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif . My friend always says that Fiona needs to stand up for herself and yelp so Heidi knows not to, and the other day she was YELPING and Heidi still didnt let go.
For a long time, Fiona would just hop on the couch and lay down (good girl http://www.ckcsboard.com/messageboard/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif ) and not fight back to Heidi. Heidi barks up a storm, and my friends excuse is always "oh she just wants to play, and isnt used to dogs not wanting to play with her".
On top of the terrorizing Fiona, Heidi is not potty trained and pees MULTIPLE times around the house when she's over, and even pooped on a chair the other day. I know we all went through it, but when I went to other people's houses I was always TERRIFIED of Fiona making a potty mistake and always kept her right by me. It's a difficult situation because she's one of my close friends. I think she figures "oh, Fiona went through that, she wont mind if Heidi goes in her house", but it's not the same when it's not your dog. She always let her out of sight, and the other night when I was getting into Bed there was a big wet spot on our bedroom rug!!
It's such a touchy subject to critique how other people raise their puppies and I dont want to offend my friend...but Kevin's almost ready to say he doesnt want Heidi over. She's really a great pup and they go on walks together and are fine.
I dont really know how to handle it...I'm afraid if she doesnt be careful Heidi is going to become an agressive dog, especially since she's loud and a bully now. Dachshunds can be very prone to bullyness. Yesterday when she was over, I think Fiona has finally had it. Fiona has NEVER EVER EVER been possessive of her toys, food, or anything, but Fiona was trying to chew on her nylabone by herself, and Heidi kept harassing her, and Fiona actually started to growl and bare her teeth at her!! I was shocked, she has never done that! Is that good that she's standing up to Heidi, or should I be wary of her becoming a bitter old dog in her 1 year of life? http://www.ckcsboard.com/messageboard/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
Sorry for the rant, but I'm stuck on what to do.
27th September 2007, 08:32 PM
I'm not full of advice on the dogs behaviour I'm afraid, but is there no way you can take fiona to their house rather than having them coming and making a mess of yours? At least that way it would save your carpets and furniture and you could leave as soon as you think she's had enough rather than sitting waiting for them to leave. Or if they must come to yours then you might have to make sure yourself that the dogs dont have the run of the house while they're there.
27th September 2007, 08:56 PM
I would try to gently tell her you value her friendship and in order to keep that friendship you both need to agree on some ground rules for the dogs. I would try to come to a consensus agreement by saying for example that until Heidi is 100% housebroken when she visits your home she needs to be contained and does your friend have some ideas or suggestions on how that can be done, for example, sitting outside, visiting at the kitchen table, staying in a family room. Tell her you are willing to invest in some puppy gates to help make this work so that you can spend time with each other and with your dogs. I would then say that spaniels and hounds (although I think of dachsunds as being terrier-like) have different temperments and that you need to figure our a way that Heidi and Fiona will enjoy each others company and again see if you can come to some middle ground that allows Heidi to inititiate play but be corrected if she gets too rough and that you give Fiona a chance to fend for herself but not to the point of being hurt or afraid. If it looks like you are not going to be able to come to an agreement, then I would suggest telling her you want to her friend but apparently Fiona and Heidi are not meant to be friends and maybe it is best if you visit each other without the dogs present. The one thing I would not do is tell her you are right and she is wrong. Try to work it out a compromise about the dogs and if you cannot than try to agree that you will not try to force the dogs to be friends but stay friends with each other. Good luck.
27th September 2007, 10:31 PM
I do think normal puppy play can look very rough. Some dogs might not like this. I think a dog would yelp if it was really hurt. Dylan would just lie there while Gabriel would munch on his leg or chew his ears, he liked it! But the messing issue is very bad. I'd suggest walks instead of visits until Heidi is house trained. I wouldn't feel awkward about asking. Doesn't sound like she is keeping an eye on her at all :rolleyes:
28th September 2007, 12:10 AM
I like the combination of all the above posts. Puppy play IS rougher than it looks and it actually is good to put Fiona into a position of socialising with a puppy and learning to define her own territory. That's GOOD that she growled and showed her a poltie warning (growling IS a polite warning to a puppy! Or to us or to other dogs). Also it's good for the puppy to socialise with an older dog, including being put in its place. Most older dogs tolerate incredibly rude behaviour from puppies without much bother and aren;t really hurt by all that annoying nipping and chewing. If she is hurt she WILL let the puppy know. On the other hand. if you find she is totally running away and hiding then Fiona probably is not the right dog for this pup to be socliaising with. But do understand that at that puppy's age, her behaviour is totally normal. :)
There's also little likelihood a puppy that young would be even close to being housetrained. It also sounds like your friend isn't taking responsibility for her lack of training -- or maybe, if you haven't said anything, assumes you do not mind that she is doing what she is doing as you too own a dog. Because of that YOU need to set some ground rules. :)On visits, the dogs need to be somewhere where accidents won't matter -- a pup that young WILL have accidents. Go outside, go to her house instead, stay in the kitchen, don't allow a small puppy on furniture. Put the pup in an xpen. She's way too young and untrained yet to be given permission to run around out of control and able to pee or defecate wherever she feels like. But as it is your house, you need to decide where a puppy is allowed. :thmbsup:
Different breeds have different personalities and dachshunds would be a lot more barky and in your face and assertive than many cavaliers. The great thing about breeds is they are so varied and suit many different types of people -- and anyone can find just the right breed personality. Not everyone finds a cavalier suits them. :lol: Hard as that is for us to imagine! Heidi sounds exactly like she should be for a dachshund puppy. Please don't stop getting together but do set some rules for where you meet. This doesn't have to be overt -- just suggest you sit and talk in the kitchen and close the doors so the dogs are confined and easy to watch -- or meet for walks instead and go to the park, or go to your friend's. None of this even has to become an issue -- you can just change the rules without ever explaining anything more than that you should sit in the kitchen since Heidi isn't fully housetrained, for example.
28th September 2007, 12:21 PM
My thought on the terrorizing is that the friends puppy may have been taken away from the litter and placed too soon. Here's why I say that.
When I watch a litter of puppies start developing from basically lumps (but VERY cute lumps!) that don't do much more than eat and sleep to puppies that are ready to go to their homes, they all seem to go through that phase when they are constantly chewing, biting, etc. on their littermates. This starts when they are becoming aware of their surroundings and their littermates. They will grab hold of an ear or tail and start pulling; the "pullee" will start screaming! There is a period of time where you would not believe all the noise as they test what hurts and what doesn't and how to play without seriously hurting each other. They also do this with Mom, who has no qualms about disciplining the offender that gets a little too rough. And we also intervene if it starts sounding a little too rough.
As the puppies get older, they learn how to play without hurting so much; and it gets a lot quieter! Our current litters that are within a week of the same age are now 10 to 11 weeks old and still play all the time, but there is not nearly the amount of crying there was just 2 weeks ago. They're learning to play without hurting so much.
So my thought is: if the puppy was placed before it was old enough to figure out how hard to play without hurting, maybe it just doesn't know. When it is at your home, I would keep after your friends puppy when it gets a little rough in the hopes that as it gets older, it will settle down. A squirt bottle with plain water does wonders for distracting a dog and doesn't hurt a bit.
I do think you should have a heart-to-heart with your friend about this. If she really is a good friend who cares about you, I think you can do it without her getting offended. Then the two of you can work together on both problems. Good luck.
28th September 2007, 04:19 PM
Yes that could sure be the issue. It's why alarm bells should go off any time someone tries to offer a puppy at under at minimum, 8 weeks. They are just so young and any trainer will confirm they regularly see problems with puppies placed before they get correctly socialised to other dogs. It is harder for humans to supply that socialisation and it is never quite the same.
Hence as an alternative viewpoint I know many trainers feel a well socialised adult dog is thus the perfect disciplinarian -- a dog reprimand is better understood by a puppy than a human one. So I think it is very good for your friend's pup to get as much time as possible with your cavalier, in a setting that of course solves your other problems with the situation! :lol: I know my trainer friends will deliberately make sure rude puppies spend as much time as possible mixing with older dogs or other puppies. Tara is doing this at the moment with a pup that plays too aggressively.
When I foster kittens, I regularly put kittens in with my toms Ambrose and Quincy because they are extremely tolerant 'uncles' but also good disciplinarians of rude kittens. That socialising with an adult or other babies cannot be replaced to such a perfect degree by human discipline. :)
28th September 2007, 04:40 PM
Bruce and Karlin, thank you so much for your insight!
The dachshund went home with my friend at nearly 10 weeks, so it wasnt that young. She plays fine with other dogs that play a little rougher, but she doesnt understand the difference of playing with Fiona.
Also, Bruce...she uses the squirt bottle to deter the endless barking, and Heidi has grown to enjoy it, sooooo now it misses the point :)
I realize that there is no way that a puppy that young would ever be housetrained (It's taken Fiona a year and we're STILL not 100% there). I notice my friend making some huge mistakes that will make it HARDER to potty train sooner (i.e letting her have the full run of the house, etc etc), and I'm trying to say learn from my mistakes, it's only going to take you longer, but it's so easy to step on a friend's toes. And honestly, I dont MIND that she goes, I just wish my friend would be a little more responsible. I know I have to say something, I just need to figure out how to say it in a nice, postive way :). She keeps blaming things on "oh dachshunds are just stubborn, it'll take her longer". grrr.
I guess my main concern is that I'm afraid Fiona is going to get scarred for life on puppies. We definitely want to get Fiona a friend in the next year or two, and I'd hate for one little devil puppy to ruin her tolerance...is that even possible?
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