View Full Version : Puppy Mill?
30th September 2007, 05:28 PM
I am a new member and I'm looking for my first Cavalier puppy. I looked at one yesterday which was the cutest and nicest puppy ever. It was 14 weeks old. My concern is the home housed at least 150 Cavaliers. They were all different ages and colors and were gated in different rooms depending on their age. They were all so cute and seemed in good health. The place was clean even though it smelled bad. They all seemed to have plenty to eat and their coats were shiny and clean. The poor woman was working her tail off to keep up with all of them.
So, my question is, should this prevent me from buying a puppy from her? She is charging about 1/2 of what most Cavaliers cost. I don't know if it is registered or if I even care. I am looking for a companion, not a show dog.
When I think of a "Puppy Mill" this is not what I envision because each of the puppies were very impressive. They all knew their names, they were obedient when she told them to go into their rooms. It was very interesting!
Any advice? But, please be nice, I am new to this!
30th September 2007, 05:31 PM
Unfortunately this sounds like a puppy mill to me. Is the breeder registered with either of the clubs? I'm sorry but this doesn't sound good to me. In the library section of this board Karlin has some really good information on choosing a breeder. Please give it a read through, I think it will help you.
30th September 2007, 05:56 PM
First of all icon_welcome
Have to agree with Cathy on this, it certainly sounds like a puppy mill to me as well, just from the sheer amount of dogs, OK they were kept in good condition etc, etc but 150? :eek: The lady was rushed to keep up with them all, no wonder, what would happen if she was ill?
Personnally I would advise not to buy from her even if they are cheaper and you aren't interested in showing etc, as your money will only start another cycle of her breeding again. As Cathy has advised already have a look round the site, Karlin has some great advice on what to look out for when going to a breeder for a puppy!!
Good Luck!! :thmbsup:
30th September 2007, 06:04 PM
Even a healthy bouncy, clean puppy can develop mvd or sm. it doesn't usually show when they are very young. Also even if the parents look healthy, they could be carriers and pass problems onto their offspring.
Research is still ongoing into the genetics of these diseases and there is alot to be learned about how they are inherited, but problems caused by recessive genes, don't necessarily show in the immediate parents, so a lines history needs to be known.
To oversimplify, suppose a dog has a gene which is recessive, for 'pink spots' then it needs to be pp. A PP dog will not have pink spots and neither will a Pp , but the latter can have pink spotted offspring, as it 'carries p for pink'. If the Pp breeds with another Pp, then the offspring can be PP, Pp or pp, so the pp ones will have pink spots, even though Mum and Dad didn't.
30th September 2007, 06:06 PM
HolY cow 150??! :eek: One person cannot possibly care for 150 cavaliers properly :( My advice to you is to run away, fast!
If you need help in finding the perfect puppy, I grew up in Chehalis, Washington and I can give you some information and help you find a good breeder. ;)
just PM me for details :)
Good luck :flwr:
30th September 2007, 07:12 PM
I definitely not buy from this woman -- I am betting it is this woman:
If so, will you drop me a PM? :thmbsup:
You want to find a reputable breeder fcused on health and conformation. Lots of folks here will be happy to give you a hand and tell you what to look for. There's also lots of advice and information in the Library section on finding a good breeder. :) The reason you go to a registered breeder is not because you want a show dog. Show breeders get very few show dogs in their litters! They produce mostly pet quality puppies but the difference is they come from people focvused on the best for the DOGS. :) What they do get is dogs bred carefully for good health and that actually look like proper cavaliers. Unregistered, poor quality, disreputable breeders charge a lot less because they do no health testing, they buy dogs of unknown background often with severe genetic problems dumped by other breeders, and they throw any two dogs ogether for their litters. When you are talking about the very narrow gene pools of purebred dogs, this is a recipe for disaster: COSTLY disaster for you, the puppy opwner, and a lot of misery for the dog, for you, and for the breed. Many here have devastating stories of dogs they bought from people like this, that have genetic illnsses that the junk breeder does not bother to breed to avoid. This breed, like most purebreds, has several breed spoecific problems and randonly breeding greatly increases the chances of any puppy having these problems. Two of them are particularly widespread and can be painful and cause an early death, much pain, and very high medical bills: MVD and syringomyelia. You need to understand both these problems (lots of info again in the Library section) so you know how to properly check out whether a breeder is doing right by his/her dogs, testing properly, or even aware of these problems. A breeder with 150 dogs for sale is mass breeding and doing no health testing, you can be sure. The vast majority of reputable breeders would have only a few litters a year.
If it is the woman I am guessing, she also has a criminal record, she is a FELON, and has been arrested and charged many times with animal cruelty charges in her former state. She just left her old state and is known to now be selling cavaliers in Washington state. She goes by many names, is wanted in the UK, and is a specialist at duping people. The Department of Justice in Washington prosecuted her in a class action lawsuit last and early this year. Send me a PM and we can discuss this privately. :thmbsup:
One of the reasons I set up this board was to help people learn more about the breed and how to find a healthy, happy puppy that will grow into a healthy, happy adult. A big part of that is helping people learn which breeders to avoid because there are thousands out there with poor quality dogs that outwardly will look healthy, waiting to take your money, knowing most people will not see them for what they are.
1st October 2007, 02:55 AM
Hi there, just wanted to welcome you to the boards, and wish you luck in your search :thmbsup:
1st October 2007, 03:34 AM
:eek: Oh my goodness!!!! This is really a fantantistic forum! [edited by Karlin] It HAS to be the woman from the articles!
If someone is in touch with the proper authorities, please pass this on to them. Here is one of the emails she sent me that shows her website and she had a bunch of pictures attached:
[edited by Karlin]
I new deep down in side I could not purchase a puppy from this place. I just sent this email to confirm it to myself.
The good news is, we purchased a puppy today from a reputable family breeder. In fact, we made the purchase before I read these replies. I knew what the answer would be!
We followed all the rules on how to select a breeder. Including meeting the parents of the puppies, looking at the conditions, looking at and recieving the AKC papers, and paying a more suitable price for a very high quality puppy. It's a male, its ruby, and it is the sooooooo cute! We pick him up tomorrow, I wanted to get the appropriate puppy care items. We're going to the vet on Tuesday and puppy kindergarten on Wednesday!
Anyway, thanks for the sage advice! I will be a regular here and will post pictures as soon as I get him home tomorrow...
1st October 2007, 03:55 AM
oh my goodness :eek: I can't believe it's her :eek:
Karlin, can you tell us what comes out of this or how someone can help? (FYI - my mother still lives in Chehalis, WA which is within driving distance and I'm sure she'd be happy to help if you need anything)
Also, I wanted to congratulate you on your puppy!! You're going to have a blast :) Did you go to the vancouver WA show about a month ago? ;)
1st October 2007, 04:27 AM
icon_welcome Yep, I'm with everyone else on this one. Wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. Your gut told you that something was wrong and good on you for following it and asking some questions.
1st October 2007, 04:33 PM
Good for you on all fronts, going with your gut knowing you were right and the upcoming new puppy!!! You're gonna love him!! Can't wait to see pictures and hear all about him.
1st October 2007, 05:05 PM
Thanks -- I will probably remove the direct mention and link in this thread as I have already got all the info stated as fact in the other thread.
I will PM you a bit later when I am not so busy. :)
2nd October 2007, 10:54 PM
I am close so if any help is needed to get her out of business again, dont hesitate to pm me.
To the original poster.
I recently got a mill mama from rescue out of Arkansas.
Even if her puppies were healthy, I would NEVER purchase one.
The puppies may be cute, but I can guarantee their mothers/fathers are miserable.
My mill mama is the most unsocialized dog I have ever seen.
She is afraid of her own shadow, and this is after us having her for 5 weeks and showering her with love.
Dont get me wrong, she loves her new life, but her old life has left deep scars that at times I fear will never heal.
Hopefully someday she will learn to trust again. I can guarantee after living with her for just over a month that she didnt have the best life.
She was put into rescue because she had a hernia and im sure at 6yrs old, she wasnt worth putting one penny into her health. After all, shes old and used up.
Yep, thrown out like yesterdays trash without a care in the world, after they made a rediculous amount of money off of her.
There is just no way that woman can care for them the way they need to be cared for, and if it's the same woman, she needs a harsher punishment.
It's heartbreaking to hear that she keeps starting over.
Congrats on your new baby.
Im glad you found one from a good home.
Homelife and health are so important.
Thank you for being cautious and letting others know what you found.
2nd October 2007, 11:02 PM
Sorry to take this further off track--
Many have reported that their byb or puppymill rescues were still learning to: play, trust, relax or voluntarily socialize a whole year after they were rehomed. They may always carry a bit of scaring with them- but considering what some have been through- I find it amazing that some recover as well as they have.
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