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Matte
12th October 2007, 02:30 PM
Our 4 month old girl was showing all signs of being house-trained until about two nights ago, when she started peeing on the floor. She's dry at night (well, for about 6 hours until she wakes us up to take her out--we're thrilled with that) but she's peeing downstairs. Today she climbed right out of my husband's lap, walked 5 steps away, and pished.

She had a urinary tract infection a few weeks ago that cleared up, and the vet thinks that it's unlikely that she has another (she also had a throat infection last week, also treated with antibiotics---way too much medicine for my taste) and he thinks that the double dose of antibiotics rules out another uti. He's gone home for the weekend but told us to call Monday if we're still concerned. She's eating like a champ and apart from being unusually toothy (could be teething, maybe), she's her usual silly sweet self.

If it's not a uti, could she just be losing her house-training? Early teenage rebellion? Has anyone else experienced this?

Karlin
12th October 2007, 02:35 PM
Except in extremely rare cases, a four month old dog is way too young to be housetrained yet -- she will have many steps forward, then steps back :). In general they don't begin to be fairly reliable til about 6 months and generally have the occasional accident til about a year old -- and very rare accidents still after that.

I recommend getting a book like Shirlee Kalstone's on housetraining a dog in seven days -- won't be anywhere near that fast but it will give you a lot of advice, schedules and general comfort when you are wondering what might be going wrong! Mine was like a bible for me when housetraining puppies -- I referred to it all the time. I eventually sent it on to a girl with a new puppy in Eastern Europe. You can get it off Amazon in the UK.

It's a great book for both housetraining and crate training. :thmbsup:

In general though -- your girl needs to be at arm's length any time she isn't asleep, on a lap, or in a crate so that she can be brought outside the second it looks like she needs to go, or an accident starts. She needs to be trained to *each* room as well -- being housetrained in one room does not transfer to other rooms. She should never be allowed to run around between rooms or where she isn't watched. At her age she needs to be taken out about every hour, on waking, after a nap, after eating/drinking or playing. Lots of reards and praise for going outside! try to start training her to go to a word, too -- that really helps and is great when travelling. :)

sallymum
12th October 2007, 02:40 PM
At 4 months she is still only a baby and will probly still continue to have accidents. I found with my lot it took them till they were about a yr before they were fully house trainned. At that age they need to still be brought out at certain times i.e. after they have woken up, after playing, after eating.
Maybe after been sick and having little accidents around the place she might need to know that its not alright to pee on the floor as she might think that she was doing for awhile didnt get corrected(nicely) and now think its ok.
U and ur little girl will get there but it will take awhile.

Matte
12th October 2007, 02:52 PM
Thanks. She seemed so good about trotting up to the door that we'd gotten a little lax about keeping an eye on her at all times--thanks for the reminder. We'll go back to taking her out every hour--now that the first autumn storms have kicked in--brrr (the wind is so bad today that they've cancelled ferry service off of our island).

No crates for us--we're doing it the old-fashioned way. Crates for house-training purposes are for all intents and purposes illegal in Sweden (you have to have a 2 meter square crate minimum for a cavalier-sized dog, if I recall correctly, because you can't have the animal sleeping where it relieves itself --you can use a crate for transportation or at the vet/groomer or at a dog show, but that's about it) and we wouldn't be crazy about it even if it was legal--we used to own a bird and after she passed on we decided that the combination of animals and cages just didn't suit us. Just my opinion, absolutely no judgment whatsoever on people who do use 'em.

sallymum
12th October 2007, 03:04 PM
Thats the point of crate training, is that they dont relieve themselves in their bed. Crates can be very usufully in training also it gives the dog somewhere they can feel safe and secure.

Matte
12th October 2007, 03:16 PM
Thats the point of crate training, is that they dont relieve themselves in their bed.

Right, but if they can't get away from it (and from what I understand of crate training you should have a small enough crate so that they'll regard the entire thing as their bed) even if it happens once, it's viewed in Sweden as animal cruelty. Again, I'm most definitely not saying that people who crate train would ever dream of being cruel to their dogs or that they are, I'm just saying how it is in this culture.

As far as giving them a safe place all their own, I'm all for that (ours has a box tucked under the coffee table that she goes to when she doesn't want to be bothered), but the thing with a crate is that unless it's open all the time, the dog can't come and go as she pleases, and then it becomes a cage.

Celticharmony
12th October 2007, 03:22 PM
I have never used a crate either for the simple reason that it coused me to worry about the fact that if it is distressing for a puppy to have to urinate in or near it's bed, then how would he be able to let me know he needed to go out? I worried that he would retain simply because he was in his bed and could become stressed. I guess the answer would be to take him from his cage at regular periods, but then does the cage not defeat the object? I can certainly see the safety aspect of a crate, but with due respect to those who use them, I wouldn't personally. Like the first poster, I dont' like the idea of animals being in cages of any kind except when needs must, as in transportation, and then I feel a mild sedative may be humane to avoid stress from noise and being enclosed.

Celticharmony
12th October 2007, 03:28 PM
Totally agree with this way of thinking, and like you am not by any means passing judgement on those who do use them. Obviously, Animal Welfare Authorities Sweden have well researched this subject and their findings resulted in their ban on crates. Maybe we shall have the same one day who knows? Or how about some countries where it is illegal to house dogs outside in winter?

sallymum
12th October 2007, 05:07 PM
Obviously, Animal Welfare Authorities Sweden have well researched this subject and their findings resulted in their ban on crates. Maybe we shall have the same one day who knows?
I dont think a lot of people would agree that crates should be banned. I myself have never used a crate but after reading info by members of this board if i ever :p get a puppy in the future i would very much THINK about crate trainning. I have to say i never liked the idea of this till i read up about it and have seen the way the dogs seem so happy with the crates.
Why would u feel u have to sedate a dog. If he, which he should be, is used to been transported. i.e trips to vets, days out there would be no need. Im no expert but i dont think it would be very good for the dogs health to be sedated when every time he was in car. sorry if im wromg just my humble opinion.:)

carolo
13th October 2007, 06:05 AM
We're in Pacific NW, USA. As for using crates, I'm all for it as long as it is done properly. Too many people abuse the use of a crate by keeping a puppy or even adult dog in it too long or for too many hours out of a day. It's great for house training. Don't keep the puppy in the crate too long a time. Pick puppy up, carry outside to where you want him/her to "go." Place right at that spot and use some short command. "Potty time," "Be quck" or whatever you won't mind using in polite company or out in public. Lavish praise when this is accomplished and bring puppy back inside for play time. Best to limit to one room and then expand the free area by a room at a time. Actively play w/ the puppy or use this time for brushing. Then into the crate again for an hour or so, back outside w/ same routine. The time between potty trips depends on age of the puppy. Allow free access to good fresh water while loose in the house, but pick up water a few hours before your own bedtime. Puppy could sleep in crate right next to your bed so that you would hear if s/he became restless at night. Our Cavalier slept thru the night at 14 weeks, but this varies alot from dog to dog. Some breeders swear by doggie door in their home to fenced yard and let the adult Cavaliers teach the puppies to go outside. I've seen this work welll but have hesitated to use doggie door because I want to know when my dog is outside and in fact usually even 'tho yard is securely fenced, someone is out with him.

Our Jake loves to see the crate being carried to the car. He jumps and dances, barking w/ glee. It means we're going to a different place for a long walk or to a Cavalier play group. Sedation is the last thing he'd want, because he enjoys these rides, walks in new places, his four footed friends to play with. The crate is seat belted in, and is just big enough for him to stand and turn around. He has a clean, soft bed inside the crate. If an accident were to occur on the road, that crate could save his life. Think of it like a child safety seat. And if it were a bad accident, your dog will not get lost in traffic and in a strange area but will be safely enclosed, taken to a safe place and numbers you have on the top of the crate will be called for someone of your own choosing to come take your dog until you are back at home.

We never leave our dog in the car when parking it but he goes in everywhere we go if he is with us. Cavaliers are such social beings, and they love adventure. Keep them on lead and let them join you for exercise and meeting new people, new dogs. (don't do this until they've finished w/ immunizations)

So a crate is a ticket to easy house training and also to adventure. It can be a safe haven if you are having work done inside your home by someone who is in and out the door or if you are painting or using something that would be a hazzard for a dog of any age, for instance.

Matte
13th October 2007, 04:23 PM
I think that the biggest problem is as you pointed out, carolo, is that people do abuse the crate--I have a theory that if you were to look at all the dogs sitting in shelters as "unadoptable" because they're too wild, you'd find that a large number of them were subject to crate abuse. I have friends in the US who use crates to train their dogs and they are wonderfully happy dogs, and I know people there who have used crates to "babysit" the dogs when they don't have the energy to deal with it, and those dogs grow up neurotic (if you can put that kind of a tag on a dog--maybe I should say not able to calm themselves down in a healthy way).

I truly don't think that crates are necessary for housetraining. I grew up in the US and never saw a crate in my childhood--people had just as many dogs then and they managed to get housetrained. Indeed, a crate may make it easier, but why get a dog if you're not prepared for a little mess in the house.

Sweden is at the forefront of a lot of animal rights issues and there's a remarkably small number of dog shelters here (cat shelters are another story, unfortunately) and the animal rights authorities don't hesitate to ban people from keeping animals (pets and farm animals) when they don't care for them right. At the same time, since people do tend to be really responsible with their pets, landlords almost always allow pets and you can take a dog into most non-food businesses.

Cultural differences!:paw:

sallymum
14th October 2007, 02:21 PM
I truly don't think that crates are necessary for housetraining. I grew up in the US and never saw a crate in my childhood--people had just as many dogs then and they managed to get housetrained. Indeed, a crate may make it easier, but why get a dog if you're not prepared for a little mess in the house.:paw:

I agree that crates arent necessary for house trainning, but if people are using them correctly like Carolo has posted both in the house and as safety in travalling what is the problem. Like i have posted previously i have never used a crate but i think i would give it a try IF i ever come by a puppy in future. Just because u are using a crate doesnt mean that ur still not going to get accidents course u are. We are not saying because we are using a crate we dont wont mess in the house thats all comes as part of the joys, but if it makes life easier and more secure for the puppy does that mean we shouldnt have dogs.

Matte
15th October 2007, 09:59 AM
It's not a problem, just a difference of opinion--if I wake up in the middle of the night, I want to be free to look out the window or go downstairs and read a book, and if my dog wakes up in the middle of the night, I want her to be free to wander around the room and have a sniff at whatever catches her fancy before she settles back in to go to sleep. Personally, I think that what makes a puppy secure is not having the gate to her bed locked behind her at night, but rather having lots of cozy places around the house to lie down in where no one will disturb her, frequent cuddles, regular mealtimes, fun things to do, and gentle, age-appropriate obedience training. I also don't think that a crate makes life easier for the puppy, I think that it makes life easier for the owner.

I agree with you that sometimes you have to use a crate to travel--maybe that is one instance when life is easier for the dog--it won't run the risk of being stepped on in a busy train station or bouncing around the inside of the car in case of an accident. To me, the key is keeping the dog inside for as short periods as possible.

Whether you find using a crate for housetraining purposes ok or not, there are nevertheless people who use crates to subdue rowdy dogs, or to keep dogs in one place while the person is at work for 8 or 9 hours, or to punish a dog for having done something the person finds wrong. Basically, they use the crate as a place to tuck the dog away when the dog is inconvenient. And,in my opinion, that is always inappropriate.