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sallymum
26th October 2007, 01:50 PM
Can any one guess what i came home from the vets with this morning.?

BarbMazz
26th October 2007, 01:52 PM
.....hmmmmm please do tell! And I sure hope there are pictures! :D

Claire L
26th October 2007, 01:57 PM
icon_nwunsurecould it be a Tortie Kitten???

sallymum
26th October 2007, 02:03 PM
icon_nwunsurecould it be a Tortie Kitten???

Nooo. Have a tortie cat and kitten at the moment.

Guess again.

Claire L
26th October 2007, 02:09 PM
How many legs does it have???

sallymum
26th October 2007, 02:27 PM
4 legs

lady and amber
26th October 2007, 02:32 PM
has it got a bark or a meow ????.

anniespeeps
26th October 2007, 02:38 PM
A gecko? A howler monkey? A kangaroo?

Or maybe. . . . a Cavalier?!

Melissa
26th October 2007, 02:39 PM
A bug that you pulled 2 legs off of... JK JK...

Hum 4 legs and that's all the info we got.... is it a turtle?:cool:

coconut
26th October 2007, 02:51 PM
another cav!!

Aileen
26th October 2007, 03:44 PM
come on tell us ? is it a black/tan
---Aileen

Sue.k
26th October 2007, 04:14 PM
Pleeeeeease tell us!!!!!!!!:confused:

Cleo's Person
26th October 2007, 04:15 PM
Ooooooohhhhh I am soooooooooooo curious! What is it?!

Thelly
26th October 2007, 04:22 PM
Bailey, Lou and Ginger are jumping at the screen here to know....please tell us!

Ginger's Mom
26th October 2007, 04:55 PM
Another Cavie~!!!!!!!!!!!!!

brid kenny
26th October 2007, 05:27 PM
Come on Mary spill the beans!!

Justine
26th October 2007, 06:25 PM
Mary I NEED TO KNOW BEFORE MY BED TIME.

*Pauline*
26th October 2007, 07:11 PM
A bug that you pulled 2 legs off of... JK JK...:cool:

:lol:

Justine, it's only 7pm! I hope Mary is going to tell us soon though. :rolleyes:

Cathryn
26th October 2007, 07:46 PM
Sure sounds like another dog to me!! ;)

sallymum
26th October 2007, 08:49 PM
come on tell us ? is it a black/tan
---Aileen
Correct. A beautiful yr old b/t. His name is Alfie. His owners didnt want him brought him to vets when i was there. What else could i do but bring him home.

Cathryn
26th October 2007, 08:59 PM
Correct. A beautiful yr old b/t. His name is Alfie. His owners didnt want him brought him to vets when i was there. What else could i do but bring him home.

icon_nwunsure What else indeed? I'd have done exactly the same thing to!! Mary you truly are an *ng*l for these dogs! :hug:

OK, come on then you know what we all want now don't you? all together folks!! :snap: :lol:

Looking forwards to learning more about Alfie!!

Aileen
26th October 2007, 09:24 PM
I just had a feeling that was what you had photos please
-----Aileen and the gang (Barney---Jazzie---Sam)

Debby with a Y
26th October 2007, 09:27 PM
It was fate! Congratulations to you and Alfie!!!

PICTURES PLEASE!!! :luv:

Mycavyangels
26th October 2007, 09:31 PM
:Dawww thats great news:D cannot wait for photos:rah:

*Pauline*
26th October 2007, 10:05 PM
You're a star Mary :rah: Why didn't they want him? :confused:

Oh and I agree :snap::snap::snap::snap:

Mary
26th October 2007, 10:09 PM
What a treasure you are for all those wonderful pets Mary! Congrats and waiting for pics!!

jld
26th October 2007, 10:44 PM
Oh my gosh....it was meant to be. Please tell us the whole story and post pics as soon as possible. Congratulations......Judy and Dixie

pinkpuppy
26th October 2007, 11:20 PM
Yay! Pics plzzzz!:flwr:

coconut
27th October 2007, 07:23 AM
Mary u ar a saint!! We really need pictures!!!!

fun1uk
27th October 2007, 10:05 AM
That was lucky you was there,Id have done the same.Photos please xxx

Celticharmony
27th October 2007, 04:20 PM
Definately meant to be. You are a star and no doubt Alfie will have a ball with you. Any idea why these people did that?

sallymum
27th October 2007, 09:37 PM
Really feeling bad here at the moment. I said i would foster Alfie to see if he would settle with the household.If so i would give him a home, he is so like Coco. Everything was going great, He is abit hyper but even better since yesterday. I would say he has maybe spent a lot of time outside, not great on a lead goes mental. Very skinny. All of this are things which with a bit of time can be sorted.
Been getting on great with everyone great with the other dogs, you would think he has always been with them.
One thing happened when i was taking him out of vets into the car he started growling at a lady i was talking to. The lady never touched him, never startled him she was telling me about a cav she had found. She was a big lady Americian, with a big voice,i thought maybe her voice had frightened him.
This evening my daughter came in ,she meet Alfie yesterday, he was all over her then. This evening when she came in she was carrying my grandaughter who is 2 in her arms. Alfie was sitting with me and started growling. I told Alfie no and he stopped, after awhile Ellie got of her mammy lap and came towards me, before the child got to me Alfie went for her. What i mean by that is he made a lunge at her growling and showing his teeth. I know it seems strange to say but as the child was about half way across the room there was no way the child had done anything. I know as well that a dog will give a warning first, but a growl 10 mins before and then just to lunge to me that is dangerous.
As some of u know i mind my grand kids while there mum works. So its not that its a case i can put Alfie in another room while their here.
Apparently Alfie came from a home with a 2 yr old. Maybe the child was cruel to him but i dont think i can chance my grandaughter getting bit, I also have a 4 month old grandson.
Does anyone thing this can be managed, i would love to think it could be as he is such a lovely dog., but as important as the dogs are my kids and grand kids safety will always come first.

Aileen
27th October 2007, 10:34 PM
Oh Mary I was looking forward to hear how he was getting on I cannot give advice about this I would give him a bit of time there might be a reason I do know what to say but you cannot put your grandchildren at risk my Sam will bark and growl at some people but we just watch him with my granddaughter he has not gone to bite he just barks the worst one of my dogs with kids is Jazzie he does not like them at all we have managed him for 10 years but we donot know what had happen to him before we had him he is 11 years old
----Aileen and the gang (Barney---Jazzie---Sam)

Jen
27th October 2007, 10:47 PM
I think it can be managed, but it's going to take a lot of work and a lot of patience. I would suggest working with a trainer that uses positive reinforcement. I would also suggest using a Gentle Leader on him as it helps calm them down a bit. Many people view the Gentle Leader as a tool to teach proper walking, but it's much more (http://www.premier.com/pages.cfm?id=29)than that. Our trainer had Gus wear it all day, and what a difference we saw in him. Given you don't know his history, you don't know if he was mistreated by children, adults, males, etc. etc. Given this, I strongly advise working with a trainer who can help you desensitise him. Our Abbey was fearful of kids, and it took a long time to desensitize her via counter-conditioning (we carry treats everywhere so she associates strangers or children with something good). However, she was never aggressive as you're describing. His fear is real, obviously, and he needs someone to help him deal with it.

Also, you've mentioned you got him at the vet, but was he actually checked by a vet to rule out any physical issues that may be causing him to react this way?

Barbara Nixon
27th October 2007, 11:02 PM
Some dogs don't like children , with no obvious reason. Izzy was one such and he didn't like many men either. I know he never had a bad experience with either and he was very outgoing as a puppy, but changed at about 8 months.

The first indication that he disliked children was when one day at yoga (he used to go with me and watch from his mat until relaxation time, when he came for a snuggle) a lady took along her grandaughter, who climbed about and played during relaxation, causing Izzy to growl.

He would also growl at my grandson, when he became old enough to approach, walking (I often wondered whether it was a toddler's gait which upset him), but Callum was taught to stay clear, so we had no problem, as that's all Izzy wanted.

I knew that Izzy would not approach a child and only growled as a request to be left alone, but I wouldn't risk a strange dog who's shown aggression (Izzy never snapped).

I think this boy would be better homed somewhere where there are no children, resident or visiting.

frecklesmom
27th October 2007, 11:56 PM
I can't give good advice but understand how heartsick you felt with his reaction. This article might be helpful for a quick read to assemble thoughts.

http://www.dogscouts.com/biteprevention.shtml

sallymum
28th October 2007, 08:25 AM
[quote=Jen;231603

Also, you've mentioned you got him at the vet, but was he actually checked by a vet to rule out any physical issues that may be causing him to react this way?[/quote]

I dont think ant physical issuses would case him to be ok with everyone else, I have a 7 yr old and Alfie has been great with him and his friends that have came in, and to react to my grandaughter.

sallymum
28th October 2007, 09:20 AM
Poor dog is also full of worms as i seen this morning not a pretty sight. I am bringing him down to get a proper check. Also i am going to try him out today with other kids and also Ellie again to see how he will react as Alfie is such a good dog otherwise. At the moment he is sitting on my 7 yr old lap watching scobby doo. I forgot the clocks went back today that is why im up so early.
I can honestly say though Ellie did nothing wrong at all, She got of her mummy lap and that was it. I have spent the whole night going over and over things to see if there was anything but i can swear that there was nothing.

Barbara Nixon
28th October 2007, 09:28 AM
I've had another think about this.

1) Could it be the shape of adult plus toddler that seemed odd ? Mine will bark if i come into the room with a towel on my head and , in the days of fashion wigs, my springers didn't recognise me, by sight, when I wore one.

2) Could it be your granddaughter's gait which caused a problem (on top of the odd shaped hiuman ) ?

sallymum
28th October 2007, 09:33 AM
Really dont know what caused this. That is why im going to see him with Ellie again this evening. Her mum is working today her daddy has her so i wont see her till this evening.
The reason Alfies owners gave him up is that they were working all day. They say he got on great with their 2 yr old.

Charleen
28th October 2007, 10:50 AM
Congratulations on Alfie. Pictures please :snap:

Claire L
28th October 2007, 12:18 PM
Congratulations on Alfie :rah:

sallymum
28th October 2007, 04:51 PM
Had Alfie had vets this morning for check up apart from been under weight and wormmy he is in good health.
On the way home a dad and toddler in buggy was going past and the same thing happened he snarled at the child, again a little girl. It seems he has a real fear of toddlers. I would love to know what his real history is as something must of caused this. Ellie my grandaughter will be round later so will give it another try.

Aileen
28th October 2007, 05:04 PM
My Jazzie would not let small girls any were near him he is just getting use to my ganndaugter who is nearly 3 to him but I think it is because the others show no fear and he will now let her give him a hug I will keep my fingers cross:xfngr: that it all works out for you

Aileen and the gang (Barney---Jazzie----Sam)

Karlin
28th October 2007, 05:04 PM
I would strongly suggest not testing him out on kids at all and keep him well away from your granddaughter (eg keep him crated or in another room when she is there) -- he needs to be temperament tested. This is a dog who may not be suitable to any situation in which he is going to encounter children and this may well be why he was being surrendered in to the vets.

That reaction is very abnormal for a cavalier, and sadly, for now indicates he should be kept well away from children until the issue s better understood. If he has growled and lunged twice now this is an indcation it is not a once-off nor a minor problem. It may be a permanent temperament problem with small kids, or hopefully, it may be possible to work with him to train away from this but it is going to take time and in the meantime he should never be allowed near small children. You may need to consider muzzling him for walks. Otherwise I would walk him alone where you can easily manage him without other dogs on the lead, and keep children away from him. Often this just is not addressable.

Can you PM Tara (TKC) as I am sure she will have some initial suggestions but Iit would be wise to get him to her asap to be tested out. She will do this for you for free but then you may need to make arrangements regarding training and further help.

Usually there's a reason people are getting rid of dogs and they tend not to be truthful about them. Sometimes the reasons are innocuous, but sometimes they are real problems.

I cannot stress how important it is to keep him to where he cannot even approach children as a single bite can mean an order for him to be pts (this would be done immediately if anyone complained to a warden or guards).

I know this is not want you want to hear but if he were in rescue I would not even consider homing a dog that has reacted twice like this -- aggressive when unprovoked -- to a situation with children in the house under 12 or where small children would be visiting, and would temperament test him with a professional trainer as a matter of urgency to see how serious this looks to be.

sallymum
28th October 2007, 06:42 PM
I agree i would not trust him with kids. As im only fostering him i will let the vet know what u have suggested but i will not be able to keep him after tomorrow as i will have my grandkids here from Tuesday till Saturday and would not be ideal to keep him crated for up to 9 hrs at a time.

Karlin
28th October 2007, 07:39 PM
I can likely shift him to rescue, let me talk to Tara; she may well take hima and work with him. This needs to be checked out carefully; I'd be concerned at the behaviour so far though when what you want is a relaxed dog aroundsmall kids. Am PMing you.

Caviesx2
28th October 2007, 08:22 PM
Hi Everyone! I'm a new member and have enjoyed reading about Mary's new addition, though I too hated the delicious suspense! What a terrible shame that Alfie's past life has taught him that children are a such source of anxiety. Overly nervous parents, probably. With all the worms, sounds like poor little Alfie was not part of that family. With Mary's patient love, understanding and careful approach, I'm so hoping he'll come to learn that in THIS living situation, kids might represent another lap and source of loving attention rather than rivals. We're rooting for you and Alfie from Austin, Texas, Mary!
- holly
:paw:

Karlin
28th October 2007, 10:22 PM
Urgently need a foster spot for this boy for a week; adult home please or with teen kids only. As you can see he is friendly and good with dogs; I talked to Tara about him and she thinks he was probably stressed by small kids in previous home and does need an adult home, thoguh he will likely gradually be accepting of small children. That takes time though and gentle training with no guarantees. :thmbsup:

I will not have a single spare moment for the coming week until Saturday but do have several possible homes for this one if anyone can please, please, please foster him for the week? He will need transport as well. Really needs somewhere to go for tomorrow if at all possible. I have two others in rescue or coming in so there's a lot of pressure at the moment; the other two are sorted for now.

Elaine 2
28th October 2007, 10:30 PM
I hope he can get sorted out, it's such a shame

sallymum
28th October 2007, 11:50 PM
Please can anyone give this lad a chance. I would keep him in a second only for my grandkids. Alfie is fine with older kids loving to sit on their knee watching T.V. He is such a good dog in every other way. All he needs is abit of time. Already in the 3 days i have had him he has come on leaps and bounds. I really cannot keep him after tomorrow as from Tuesday my grandkids will be here. I dont know what will happen if no one can take him. Alfie really diserves a chance.

Aileen
29th October 2007, 12:17 PM
If he was in the UK I would willing give him a chance
-----Aileen and the gang (Barney---Jazzie---Sam)

Karlin
29th October 2007, 12:25 PM
Going into foster with Thelly. :rah:

Cathy T
29th October 2007, 01:55 PM
Well....bless your heart Thelly!! You are such a great asset to rescue!

Cleo's Person
30th October 2007, 01:07 PM
Bless you Thelly! PLease keep us posted on how he gets on. It's unlikely this time that you'll have a surprise as you did with Ginger! :)

Sue.k
30th October 2007, 01:26 PM
Oh so glad to hear this little man is being sorted out, well done Thelly, you are fantastic!!!!:rah:

Rj Mac
30th October 2007, 05:04 PM
Great news :D

Karlin
30th October 2007, 05:22 PM
Am told this is a gorgeous young dog, active and not a bother with him with other dogs or people. Thanks again to Thelly for giving him a last minute lifeline. :)

sallymum
30th October 2007, 06:09 PM
Thats what i found great with people, most dogs, didnt like a pair of Samoyds in vets. Hopefully this thing with toddlers can be sorted. Found out today the previous owners had a 2 yr. girl. Same as my grandaughter.

Thelly
30th October 2007, 10:39 PM
Just a quick update on Alfie. He is getting on great since I collected him on Monday. God he was shaking in the crate and I would say it was very difficult for him to leave Mary. But when I got him home he had 4 other noses on him as soon as he got out of the crate so he just had to get on with it!!

They are all getting on and as there are no kids or babies around us here thankfully we haven't had any issues to deal with. I am well used to having a cav with issues. LouLou cannot stand certain men coming into our home and I have to keep her in check by times.

He is such a gorgeous guy and he is just part of the family already! I'll get a good pic of him and post tomorrow.

Celticharmony
30th October 2007, 11:35 PM
Thelly, bless you for giving this dear little guy a loving home where he doesn't need to fear that preying little hands won't seek him out and hurt him when his owner is not supervising. I just know from your post that he is going to be so happy and content. I am sure he will show his appreciation of your selflessness by rewarding your love in true Cavalier fashion. I would love to have been in a position to have taken him, but now it's a truly good feeling knowing he has landed in a safe and stress -free environement. People like you are truly special individuals.

jld
31st October 2007, 03:28 AM
Wow, Thelly you are truly amazing......thank you for just being you. Judy and Dixie

goldcountryrose
31st October 2007, 05:32 AM
I find it very odd, but my Toby also reacts very badly to little children. His breeder did not have any, and I don't have any, so in his whole 2 years of life, he simply, in my opinion, doesn't know what they are.

He has now seen 2 of them (I feel like I am talking about aliens LOL) and he lunges and barks at them, but has not even come close to biting or hurting them. Ummm he also barks his head off at anyone who comes in the house, or makes a noise outside, or, heaven forbid, has the nerve to walk around in their own yard next door.

In other words, Toby is just a barker and very protective. I have no fear whatsoever that he would ever bite anyone. He is just a big bag of wind, all bark and no bite.

The only Cavalier who has bitten me is my old man, Max. And he only did it because,
1. I was feeding him out of my hand, and he goes crazy about food
2. I hurt him picking him up when he had an anal abscess.

Karlin
31st October 2007, 09:58 AM
This is a topic on which I feel very strongly. This is not an area in which a responsible rescue person ever takes a chance.

Any dog that lunges at children needs to be kept well away from children, full stop. Not simply because you would never know whether a dog doing this would bite -- in which case that would be the end of your dog in most cases, so who would ever risk such an outcome -- but also because a lunging, growling, barking dog of ANY size is absolutely terrifying to most kids and many adults. There is also nothing more enfuriating than owners saying, 'Oh he's fine, he's just all bark'. Even if he is all bark, this experience can be very upsetting to the person targetted.

If a dog is highly reactive, it needs training to deal with this, and/or to be managed in such a way that it isn't placed into situations where it will encounter children (eg not walked in public places and muzzled on walks). If people wonder why kids end up with a lifelong terror of dogs, an experience with a reactive dog, even if it is all bark, is one typical reason. :(

I already know of a cavalier that was placed into the wrong situation recently by someone else trying to do rescue, was reactive and nipped, and was pts because an adult insisted. On the flip side, a cavalier on its hind legs is well able of reaching a toddler's face. Even a cute cavalier has, as one dog trainer has written, a mouth full of the equivalent of carpet knives.

Neither situation, or the possibility of it arising, is acceptable in my book. Hence I temperament test every cavalier when there's any question of issues, and never place a reactive dog into a foster or permanent home with children.

Sandrac
31st October 2007, 11:42 AM
Thelly well done for taking Alfie into your home and heart.:p