My Tommy - Rapid Breathing

As you may know from previous posts I have had problems with Tommy 7.5 years old for a few years now. He has had a heart murmour for years now but it has never been graded, for the past 2 years he has had on and off severe pain in back end, walking funny, yelping in severe pain, weakness in hind quaters...this comes and goes but each attack seems worse then the one before. I have noticed the fast few months very often his breathing is sooo rapid. He is laying next to Tilly now and I have watched carefully and his breathing is 3 beats to her 1. He is seeing the vets on 7th Janaury. What should I be asking them. Time and time again besides saying he has a murmour they have never come to any conclusion as to whats wrong with his back end problems. The have treated him with Metacam and Rimadyl for pain. I dont know where to go with this next although I am making them look at him again. his last bad attack on hind end weakness and yelping was in July, No attack since then....they even suggested he be put to sleep - I am stumped

Im no expert so cant really offer any advice. But I hope he gets better soon. Have you tried another vets for a 2nd opinion?

This sounds like it may well be syringomyelia. There are painkillers which would probably help him greatly. I've got a lot of information including a treatment diagram, symptoms document and Clare Rusbridge's introduction to the condition that you can download and take to your vets. Are your vets doing anything for his heart problems as well?

www.smcavalier.com

There are lists of neurologists on the site that do low cost MRIs or would at least do a clinical exam (as his heart condition is so advanced I'd not do an MRI nor consider the surgery option for SM if he seems to have it but I'd hurry to get him onto some pain treatments for it. There is a free trial at the Royal Vt College and you could check on this -- info posted in the SM forum). I would try to find a vet familiar with the condition if your vets are not willing to investigate this possibility. Probably at least 50% of all cavaliers will eventually develop SM so this should definitely be checked. I would ask that he be put on frusemide if he isn;t already as this will also help his heart and also, gabapentin (neurontin). If the vets are not treating for his heart I would try another vets that take a more active care approach. If he is short of breath and hyperventilating he really needs to be on some heart meds if he isn't yet. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Exactly what I was just discussing with my husband. We were told 2 years ago they thought for certain he had prostrate cancer - turned out not to be true, they we were told he just had a compacted bowl, which they cleared and now were are told he had "some sort of nerve problem" He suffered so badly in july we went to the vets for the third time on a friday and i was told if he was the same putting him to sleep on the monday would be the kindest thing for him - thankfully but the sunday night he began to improve. Other then the rapid breathing he is a happy chap, eating well, walks and playing

No he is not on anything for his heart, only meds listed when he is in pain. I am going to look into the information you have sent and do what you have suggested. He has struggled to jump on the sofa for at least 3 years now. He gets up in the end but hesitates and has to have a few goes before he makes it!

I'd change vets I think and get a second opinion. Also if you look at the list of low cost MRI clinics, you could call one near you and see if they can recommend a vet in your area familiar with SM. I'd also contact the Royal Vet Clinic about the trial. There are links for the trial on the main page of my SM site in the side column.

Poor wee man. I wondered about SM too as soon as I saw your post. I see Karlin has that covered. In the absence of an obvious reason for panting (eg heat or exercise), they pant when they are in pain or otherwise distressed.

I sure hope you can get some help for him. :xfngr:

Thanks Karlin - the reason he is going back to vets on the 7th January is because I had to take Tilly for a small op - I had never seen the vet before and she told me she was a locam and traveled around. I began discussing Tommy, she specialised in heart and nerve problems. She is at the surgery again on the 7th so booked Tommy in to see her. She too felt he should have something for his heart simply based on what i told her and she mentioned SM. So I thought "wow a breathe of fresh air"! i know she will only be at surgery now and again but i will express my concerns and hope she points me in the right direction

Oh great, yes get her advice. She might have a reference for you or perhaps can tell you where she will be circulating as locum and then you can check with her again. She might suggest getting him on to something and seeing how he does.

Having read the information again I am certain its SM, when he has the attacks he gets a left leg twitch, the leg has a mind of its own, difficulty jumping up, thinking back this all started when Tommy was about 4. Just about a month after he turned 4. I am so worried now that he is possibly in pain and has been for some time and untreated. I just dont understand how it will progress, when do I say I will not let him suffer further? Is he in pain now and I dont know it. I feel absolutely dreadful now. On average how long do dogs live with this? can they have it their entire life? What have others done faced with this situation?

I have two dogs with SM and both are managed quite well on pain medications. Leo has moderate grade MRI-diagnosed SM and Lily likely has mild SM based on clinical evidence but not MRI (it is one of the reasons I never rehomed her as I had early suspicions). SM is a very variable and strange condition -- some dogs (and people) just get occasional pain sessions, some have chronic discomfort. Some do really well on medication, some do as well as other dogs that have the surgery... there are so many variables and no on knows how a dog will progress. Nicki and Cathy Moon also have SM dogs as do many others here. All our experiences are different, I think I can safely say!

Why not try and get him on the vet college trial? I'd ring them and talk to them. You'd get an MRI through them (though you will likely need to get one of the low cost diagnostic MRIs first yourself) and treatment and follow up.

Also depending on what you want to do and how his heart is (I am not sure if you are sure whether the heart is a mild murmur or a more serious problem) you could consider the surgery. But I';d try to see if the vet will give him a prescription for say a combo of frusemide and gabapentin especially if he has day to day difficulties. If he has just had pain session I'd get him on steroids or gabapentin. Steroids tend to be the best for those occasional pain sessions if they are not very frequent. But you will want an exprt's assessment and advice. This is just what those of us with symtpomatic dogs tend to hear or do.

Izzy , who had a grade six murmur for his last two years, was given Fortekor 5 when he began to cough. later he developed rapid breathing and Vetmedin helped this within a couple of days. He only had Frusicare (Frusimide) during his last months , as the vets found no fluid build up until then.

Funny the vet keeps asking me is Tommy coughing so they must think his mumour is advanced but he does not cough but does have rapid breathing! Not sure if its just at night when he is resting or if thats when I actually just notice it. When I see vet on Monday I will ask what grade she thinks he is......He seems happy enough, eating, playing, going for short walks but I just cant bear the thought he could be in pain. Husband and I do not agree or see eye to eye fully. He feels Tommy should not have any pain and does not want him to have one day or pain and although I feel the same I dont want to feel like I have taken time away from him either.

There are two things you should really do -- one is to see a cardiologist to get a proper heart murmur grade. Vets are very poor at grading. Most likely you should get an xray of his heart as well so you know whether there's enlargement. You need to determine where he is at to figure out the best course of treatment and whether the panting has anything at all to do with his heart. Heart care is well established but you need a vet willing to do something actively and you really need to get a grade from a cardiologist. If you check with the CKCS club for heart clinics there are regular low cost clinics at shows that anyone can attend. Ring the club or email them for more info. I would want to get a proper murmur grade asap and get vets who will then treat what needs treating.

Secondly I would get him properly checked for SM. He should be put on regular medication if he has this and to me it really sounds like this is the most obvious source of the kind of behaviour you have seen. He could be made a LOT more comfortable and the pain perhaps fully eliminated but you need proper professional advice.

Thanks so much! I have written everything down so when I see this locum vet i can really get the wheels in motion. I simply want to know where he stands and how to keep him comfortable and with me for many more years

I don't think that knowing a heart grade is as important as whether symptoms show and how a dog's body copes. Izzy was symptom free until his murmur was very pronounced and I know of two others who were symptom free for over a year with a known 6. My vet says that a dog with an easily managed strong murmur is much better off than those with middling ones, who cough and pant.

Not all mvd dogs , who cough, do so all the time. In Izzy's case, even near the end, it was first thing (and only a couple of hacks), sometimes after mad exercise (he wasn't excercised but liked to run about and I felt that less time that was enjoyed was better than longer with upsetting restrictions ) or excitement and when there was a change in weather (He seemed to be affected by air pressure). Others cough and pant after even mild excercise and when feeding or drinking, so all are different.

I was told that Fortekor slows the heart, Vetmedin helps with breathing and Frusicare removes fluid. heart medications, now, unlike a few years ago, are very good and can give a good quality of life for quite some time; two years in our case.

I would ask for help with the heavy breathing, as at the very least, it must be tiring.

Thank you Barbara, Do you mind me asking how long did you have your Cavi? Tommy is 7.5 years old and I really hope he is with me many more years

karlin is right, all the Syringomyelia dogs progress in different ways - my Rupert is now 11 1/2, has infrequent episodes of pain [sometimes several years apart] and in between is his happy, normal self - other than a few minor problems like not being happy about his front legs being groomed.

My most severely affected dog, TedBear, is only 4 - he is on a cocktail of medications, which we are frequently having to change and rebalance, to keep him comfortable. He scratches, scoots [not anal glands], lies on cold floors, can no longer cope with being cuddled if he's held vertically etc - BUT when he is distracted, such as when you go for a walk, he can still be manic and chase around for a tennis ball. He still has a good quality of life, despite times where he obviously is not as comfortable.

I did seriously consider surgery but felt it was not the right option for him - or for us. With a dog over the age of 7 I would also be wary of surgical options - I think most vets would be of a similar opinion.

However there are lots of meds tha could help Tommy to be more comfortable - the panting could be pain rather than heart, also affected dogs don't seem to cope well with being warm - they prefer to be cool.

HOpe this helps and please keep us posted. Don't feel bad - your vets didn't seem to be up to speed on Syringo, and it's hard sometimes to get them to open their minds! My way of looking at things is that the vet is a partner in my dog's care - and should be prepared to listen to me with an open mind - and be prepared to learn about something if they didn't know - obviously they can't know about every condition affecting every species/breed of dog - this is something that is quite rare outside of toy breeds, and is only now just started to be taught about in vet school.

If a vet doesn't want to listen to you - then find another. The locum vet sounds good -hope that works out for you.

Izzy died in March and would have been 10 in June of this year. I had him from 10 weeks old.

Near the end his breathing was very rapid and he had a faraway look in his eyes. However, I don't think he suffered any pain, though the breathing was uncomfortable, especially in warm or close weather. Coughing never really appeared to bother him, as he'd have his cough , then jump up on the bed or run up and down satirs like a puppy. Just before the coughing began, he lost a lot of weight, though Monty who's 12 , now, also did. We are lucky that Monty's middling murmur doesn't trouble him at all.The day Izzy died he was more sleepy, but ate his evening meal and begged for some sweeties, only an hour before he went out for a wee and died in the garden. It was very peaceful.

This photo was his last, taken before three months before he went and though he's thin (he's the one on the right) he still has his zest for life--and treats.

Thanks so much Barbara and so sorry to hear about Izzy, I guess in many respects I am just so worried will i do the right thing vs will i do the wrong thing! i will certainly look into his care and treatment more now and just be guided by gut instincts. He is at vet Tuesday 8th Janaury (sorry thought it was monday 7th)
thanks again for so much helpful and comforting information and I will for sure keep you posted, if not before i will certainly let you know what the vet said - thanks again, I love this site - fantastic