Need to Vent... Puppy Search continues

In my search to find a puppy, I believe I am doing the right thing for my family and the new dog. I have researched extensively, I am choosing to go with a breeder (not a pet store, not a puppy mill, not a newspaper ad etc...) I found approximately 12-15 names either on the club web sites or referrals from the club breeder members. I have called about 13 different breeders...so here's my rant.

WHAT IS UP with some of this people! I understand that this is a passion of theirs and that they need to be sure before they sell to just anyone, BUT that doesnt mean they have to be so rude! I'd say about 3 people I talked to were decent, polite and willing to treat me with respect as I would treat them. The others were curt and down right nasty...this after I mentioned so and so from the "club site" recommended you. Needless to say I would never buy from them anyhow.

One woman asked me some questions I answered them and then when I started to ask here my questions she asked me rather scarcastically "if I was reading off a list a questions on the internet" I said absolutely not! I have been researching this for almost 2 months and at this point I just looking for a reputable breeder. She then directed me to her website and said if I had anymore questions to go there. She had 12 week old pups and had no intention to even give me the time of day.

The whole process has been frustrating to say the least!

I have found one breeder who I like and I will probalbly go with her but my journey there has not been a pleasant one due to the fact I never expected the type of behavior I encountered!

Cricket

Having been on both sides of this issue, I wish there was a clear cut way to make both sides happy.
Many breeders work, have a family and have lots to do during the evenings (when most people call). I know I try to educate the people who call, but even I have been a bit terse when someone calls and says, ' you got some of them spaniels for sale??? how much???". Or when someone calls and wants a female, tri that is 16 weeks old, housetrained (cuz no one is home for 9 hours during the day) to be delivered the end of May (???wth???). The person who wanted the girl tri was really ticked that I couldn't give it to her.

Sorry you had a bad experience. When we got our first cavalier, it took MONTHS to find a breeder and then even until the litter was born, we didn't know if one would be ours.

Sandy thanks for your take on it.

I guess It has a lot to do with supply and demand. I suppose they have a right to be picky with which person they sell to. But I was NEVER rude with them.

You know, I'll admit I've probably offended people by refuring them back to my website or to the breed website, both with my rescues and my showdogs, but I really try to be patient and always answer all their questions before! But my attitude is if the caller obviously knows what they're talking about (and you obviously do!), I LOVE it when they ask me alot of questions and, coming from the breeder stand point, actually ask what health testing I've done and want to see proof, I'll tell you, if I have 10 people that call on a puppy, and only one does that, they'll probably be the one that I end up choosing as the home for that puppy! It shows me they've done their research before calling me, and are alot more likely to know exactly what they're getting themself into! But also keep in mind alot of people just don't have the people skills to know how to politely tell someone you're busy, and ask them to call back at a later time without offending them!

Unfortunately this is not an uncommon occurence. I'm sorry it's happening to you as well. I ran into the same thing before I found my breeder and met other breeders. I think this has a lot to do with why people are more apt to go into a pet store or by from a backyard breeder. These people know how to "sell" a dog. I've talked to several breeders about this and voiced my concern that they are pushing people into buying from unreputable sources.

My advice....continue to work with the ones who are willing to work with you as long as they are reputable breeders. The payoff will be well worth it.

Breeders argue about this issue themselves on the breeder email lists. You kind of wonder why some bother even noting they have puppies available either thru the breed club much less a website if they aren't going to be polite and helpful.

On the other hand many people are really rude or don;t even take a second of their time to read my website for basic info they then ask me (eg do you have any puppies)-- I routinely get requests to 'come visit my dogs so I can pick out a housetrained puppy that gets along with cats and toddlers' and that sort of thing, or people noting they want an already trained dog with no behaviour problems and no health issues, as they are out at work 9 hour days.

But difficult breeders are exactly why people go to pet shops, internet brokers and puppy farm websites, and BYBs (who often say they breed 'for the love of it and to make it easy for you to get a puppy after they themselves experienced how hard it was to get one'! (and yeah, that must be why they show how much they love the breed by following no health protocols at all or pretending to do hearts when really their vet is all they ever visit).

Finding a good breeder takes time -- generally not a few weeks, often not even months. A long time.

Thanks all for your responses! they have made me feel a little better.

Cricket

It is kind of a sticky wicket. I know I asked tons of questions even if some stuff was on the website, because it is easy to put things on a website, but sometimes when the person actually is put on the spot about what specific health testing, etc. they do, it's a different story.

Plus, as a good educated buyer, you want to come across like you know what you are talking about and one way to do this is to ask the right questions and know what the right answers should be.

One breeder website talked about how healthy, health-checked, carefully bred, etc. her dogs were, but after I emailed and called her with questions a couple of times, she knew she did not have the answers I was looking for (because she really did not do health checks of any significance before breeding). After my last email with questions, she said "I'm sorry -- he has been placed." very curtly. Then I saw the little guy on her website ever after that with updated pictures, etc. She knew enough to know that she was not doing what a good breeder would do and she didn't like being put on the spot about it.

I'm sure breeders get all sorts of weird and frustrating callers, but I suppose that goes with the territory. But you probably wouldn't want to work with a rude breeder, even if they were good, so it would behoove them to be civil. Like others have said, it's kind of difficult on both sides of the phone.

As a breeder, I have encountered some extraordinarily rude and ignorant people this year. It's enough to make someone stop breeding. I've had people spend an hour with me on the phone, ask for pictures, and then not even respond when they received them.My puppies aren't that ugly, lol. I received a call the other day from someone who was given a 2 year old Cavalier and they don't even know where the dog came from. It makes you scared to place a puppy if this is what people are going to do. However, I was glad she called because she wanted some basic information, ie, whether to get their hearts checked so I will get back to her when I hear of a heart clinic. It' great when people get a few places to call, but this is not a shopping project. These are living, breathing creatures who deserve a person who is committed to finding a wonderful puppy and breeder, but by calling dozens of people , IMHO, how can you possibly keep everyone's information straight and why would they spend an extraordinary amount of time with someone only to have the caller move on to the next person without even knowing why you didn't make the cut.

I would tend to disagree. It is a shopping project. You can gather a wealth of information and a sense from a person by speaking to them on the phone. I live in NYC but have access to breeders in NJ and PA. So I have come across prices ranging from 3000 all the way down to 1500.

So if I want

a. a healthy puppy
b. a great breeder and
c. a decent price

then yes it is a shopping project!!!! absolutely!!!!

If I have to talk to 50 breeders to find the right one then I will. I believe in this part of the USA the availability of healthy cavaliers is scarce. I may be wrong , but that is the info I have gathered!

So this time (i adopted a rescue 6 years ago, she's a great chocolate lab) I'm going to be sure and adopt EXACTLY what I want and not settle for less

cricket

I believe you misunderstood. what I meant is It is not like shopping for a car or a commodity. Unfortunately, given your area, you do not have the opportunity to get $1500 quality cavaliers. So if you're seeking that, you would need to expand geography or settle for a dog that probably isn't from quality breeding. It takes time to understand and pinpoint who you should be working with but it is not a shopping project like finding the same product anywhere, you are buying trust , relationship, and a breeder who cares about the breed by doing whatever they can to insure best chances for a happy healthy puppy.And who wants you for the future home of the puppy they care so much about. You don't need to talk to 50 people , if you do, you're not asking the right questions or seeking something that doesn't exist. I've helped a lot of people find puppies across the country, just to be nice, and there is something amiss if you can't locate a puppy at this time of year from a good breeder, there are many available.

NO I think I am asking the RIGHT questions. Just not finding the right breeders and I believe it ALL has to do with location and supply and demand. I believe it is THAT SIMPLE!

Cricket

I have to agree with Nancy this isn't a shopping project--- if you give off the wrong 'vibe'-- you won't get a pup from ANY reputable breeder. If you are talking to breeders on the club website-- many are very good. A decent price for a cavalier on the east coast is probably 2500.00.

I was offered carte blanche for a puppy from a VERY rich person who lives on the gold coast -- he gave off a "I can buy anything I want at any time vibe" and I said no. I don't think many people have told this guy no.

ITA. You must first earn the trust of a reputable breeder. They are your family for life and will be the first ones to contact for support. Plus they do not abandon you once they place their precious charge in your care.

There is no such thing as a $1500 CKCS unless they are from disreputable breeders or aka byb or pm distributors.

pinkpuppy said:

There is no such thing as a $1500 CKCS unless they are from disreputable breeders or aka byb or pm distributors.

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I have to respectfully disagree. I know I'm in a "different country" but I have to agree with cricket when she says that it has a lot to do with supply/demand. I live in Ontario (not too far from NYC) and $1500 is the norm for a health tested cavalier from a reputable breeder. :flwr:

I've searched over 30-40 breeders in this part of the country. Many were asking the minimum of $3000. Now they're asking the same in the west coast. All the breeders I've searched were referrals from ACKCS and CKCS listing including referrals from reputable breeders if no pups are available. Actually the last breeder I spoke to wanted $5k for a pup that was not good enough for show. *shrugs*

pinkpuppy said:

Actually the last breeder I spoke to wanted $5k for a pup that was not good enough for show. *shrugs*

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That is a TON of money !!

The breeders up here that are charging $1500 are registered with the canadian kennel club and they do show breeding, but I guess the demand just isn't as high. I did see a cavalier in a pet store this past week for $2600 though Poor little guy was much too thin and I noticed his hair wasn't full like I remember Kosmo and Faith's being when they were his age

I can't imagine paying $5,000 for a puppy unless I was planning on showing him/her or by chance the breeder was working on SM screening their dogs. I understand the cost of MRIs are quite high, so much so that unfortunately I don't know of many breeders who do it

Not sure if this helps or at least gives an idea. In the UK the price for a pet cavalier from a reputable breeder can be £600+, whereas you can buy a cavalier in my area for as little as £325 - you can guess where that one comes from - yes a so called "reputable" kennel (cough)

My husband did the hunting for our first cavalier- back in 2000. I found his list and notes from his search when I cleaned out the desk years ago. I was rather shocked to see that there were two brokers on the list (years later it is easier to spot), one of which was the now well known one from Indiana. The prices ranged from 650-1500 USD and this is in the midwest.

If you and a breeder hit it off and they don't have pups (and you don't want to wait) you can ask them to refer you to another reputable breeder. When we made a decision on a breeder, one of the other breeders later got in touch with us-- she wanted to know who we picked and she was happy to give her opinion. Three years later, we went to the second breeder for a pup. fwiw

I didn;t have a clue when I started looking for puppies -- it is a learning process. Sandy I think a lot of people were duped by the Indianawoman and some others prominent as brokers still!!

On a separate issue, SM screening should never add thousands to the price of a puppy. The average cost on an MRI is about $1000-1800 with some low cost schemes in place now in Canada, east coast of the US, and certainly I have heard of neurologists giving low cost screenings to breeders if a club approaches (as was done in Washington state, twice!).

If there are four puppies in a litter, that means MRIing should not add more than a few hundred dollars to the price of a puppy if the breeder wishes to recoup that cost in a single litter (but that doesn't really make sense...lots of other tests are done for health of a line or breeding information without puppy buyers underwriting the entire cost). Studs in particular spread their genes far and wide and so screening studs and/or using screened studs should be a priority according to researchers. An MRI for a stud would be swiftly recouped in stud fees. So there are many options. Some breeders are beginning to list their MRI-screened dogs here for example

http://www.cavaliersonline.com/sharing/AAstuddogs.htm

and I know prominent club members like Anne Eckersley are eager to get people including MRI grades in the national club-supported health roster.

Very high prices for puppies will definitely drive buyers to the BYBs and puppy farms but obviously not the pet shops! I could never afford to own a cavalier at those higher prices.