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frecklesmom
27th January 2008, 09:21 PM
I wonder if anyone on the board has had a Cavalier that has been debarked. My Annie ( blk/t) is 7 y.o. and was debarked sometime in her life before she was owned by the breeder. The cardiologist warned that she is prime candidate for aspiration and she does have problems that concern me re: swallowing. When we were kids and another would start choking we'd say "must 've gone down the wrong hatch" and I believe this happens fairly often with Annie. She has a brakefast bowl to slow her eating and I'm careful with treats but there are still episodes. I feel so sorry for her coping with this mess. I can't find longterm studies on the "net but maybe I just have to keep changing the search words.

*Pauline*
27th January 2008, 10:27 PM
I've never heard of such a thing, I'm imagining the worst and I hope I'm wrong :confused:

WoodHaven
27th January 2008, 10:49 PM
Debarking is purposely injuring the vocal cords to "quiet" the bark. It is usually done when you have MANY dogs, or if you have a barking breed (some breeds of dogs bark a lot). I've been to dog shows where the collies make a most hideous noise, because they were debarked. One of my cavalier foster dogs had been debarked-- she made a 'whoo whoo' noise.

*Pauline*
27th January 2008, 11:23 PM
:(

Caraline
28th January 2008, 12:39 AM
Our Sonny was debarked before we got him. Apparently he was a persistent barker that caused strife between his previous owners & their neighbours who lived on a regular sized block of land.

We have had him now for over a year and he is a normal happy little fellow with a soft husky bark. He doesn't bark any more or less than our other dogs here, but there is probably not much to cause him to bark as we live on acres. He is in good health, never coughs or gags.

My personal views on bebarking? I would not like to be in a position where I had to consider it and would hope that I would be able to find another method of quietening a noisy dog. I try not to stand in judgement of others, unless I have stood in their shoes. I've never had a barkey dog, so I would not deem to be judgemental of those who have had to go down this route. If the choice arose between having to surrender my dog or have him debarked, I suspect I'd go with the latter. May the gods ensure I never am faced with such a choice!

Anyway, here is some information from 2 sites on debarking.

http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/debark_qna.htm

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-debarking-a-dog.htm

Cavfan
28th January 2008, 03:10 PM
OMG it sounds horrible! Ours is a barker occasionally and it drives us mad but to deliberately injur an animal for convenience sounds barbaric!:mad:

Karlin
28th January 2008, 03:40 PM
Debarking is as far as I know, an illegal practice for vets to perform in the UK and Ireland, as is declawing cats (and docking tails, wiring ears etc in the UK).

There's vet debarking and then there are the more horrific ways this is done by puppy millers/puppy farms. I can believe that if this were done in the 'do it yourself' way it could cause serious complications for the dog. I have been told this is done by ramming a steel bar down a puppy's or dog's throat. :eek:

frecklesmom
28th January 2008, 05:11 PM
When I got Annie I didn't know she was debarked until she was comfortable enough to "bark" and I was horrified. I knew about debarking but never thot it would pertain to me. When the rest of the crew here heard her they looked at me as if to say "fix her". Now it is old hat to them. My neighbor cried the first time she heard her and their old boy Rat Terrier will not stay out when Annie is out even tho' a fence separates them. It is so cruel to take away a dog's voice. When the others bark I can tell many things by the bark pitch but there really is no "pitch" to Annie's rasp. I know I might get slammed for this but I believe if you can't stand barking than don't have dogs-period. If your neighbor can't stand your barking dog than get to someone who can help correct the behavior of your dog. There are obedience classes everywhere and information on dog training so available that an uncontrolled barking dog is human failure. Debarking is a lazy solution sought out of greed or ignorance.

CavyMom
28th January 2008, 07:11 PM
I agree with you 100% I try not to judge others, but debarking in my eyes is animal cruelty, while I've seen a few dogs that haven't had any problems from being debarked, I've seen many many more that gage, loose their breath when running, or have other long term health problems resulting from the procedure - And it doesn't solve the behavior, and often makes it worse, as they bark and can't hear themselves so they just keep barking :( That's not in every case, and if the situation is corrected so the dog doesn't have a reason to bark, they stop, but I agree that training is the answer, NOT debarking!!! I feel the same about cats, if you can't stand your cat clawing on stuff, and won't spend the time or money to teach it appropriate behavior, then DON'T HAVE A CAT! Declawing and debarking are both very cruel, inhumane procedures that are only useful to lazy owners that want a quick fix :( I've had bad barkers in rescue before - Using a citronella collar on the extreme cases while outside to keep my neighbors happy, and then giving the dog plenty of outlets and training out the behavior with time, I've never had a problem barker that couldn't be taught when it was and wasn't appropriate to bark.

Karlin
28th January 2008, 10:17 PM
I've used plastic nail covers from www.softpaws.com for cats (you can also use them on dogs) and they only come off about every two months. Declawing takes off the full first joint of the cat's toe -- like lopping off the whole end joint of your finger or two -- and is extremely painful for the first 24 hours in particular, and no wodner, having the ends of all your fingers on both hands cut off! :eek: The cat then has to learn to walk without a full joint.

I read a medical article on debarking that said that in about a third of dogs they are still able to bark and sometimes the bark comes back *louder* than before. I would find the rasping worse than the bark -- I have had one dog in rescue that was debarked. Really sad, the dog was afraid of a collar and lead and had obviously never been walked and had no idea how to relate to other dogs either.

Denise G.
29th January 2008, 10:13 PM
Mia was debarked by her breeder, much to my surprise. I didn't realize it until a few days after I brought her home. I called the breeder to confirm it and was a LITTLE irrate that he hadn't told me. I didn't know if she was sick, had something caught in her throat or what when I first heard her try to bark. He told me he was planning to show her and they debark all the dogs they travel with to show. Whatever--I didn't believe him. Can debarked dogs even qualify for shows? Anyway, he offered to take her back and give me a younger puppy--yeah right. I'd already fallen in love with her, which I'm sure he knew.

Anyway--I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary with her due to the debarking. She doesn't seem to know she's been debarked and she doesn't have any physical problems related to it that I've noticed. She doesn't bark excessively, but when she has a mind to, she can bark the house down in her hoarse little way. Her breeder shows many of his dogs and has several champions (Mia's dad and sister to name a couple) and he reassured me that it was done by a vet, but it still made me angry. :mad:

There has to be a better way.:confused:

chloe92us
13th February 2008, 03:12 PM
This breeder had a 2 YO blenhein she was looking to rehome and she had been debarked by the breeder. I was shocked! She said this is a fairly common practice in the show ring. I obviously walked...no RAN...away from this lady. Poor dog.

WoodHaven
13th February 2008, 03:19 PM
It is somewhat common in certain breeds-- herding breeds. They use their bark as a tool to HERD. The noise could be overwhelming if you had many of them.

CavyMom
14th February 2008, 04:19 PM
Can debarked dogs even qualify for shows?
Sadly - Yes, as debarking a dog does nothing to affect is conformation, the kennel clubs have no way of even knowing if you've debarked your dog or not alot of the time, and I've never even seen the ones in the US make a stand on if you should debark your dogs or not, although I'd love for them to come out and say you can't show a dog that's been debarked!!!

I've owned herding breeds in the past, and am really saddened by how common it is to debark this breed - They are barkers by nature BUT they are also amazingly smart dogs, it is NOT difficult to teach them when it is and isn't appropriate to bark! But it does take effort and patience, to many people just want an easy fix :( And as Karlin mentioned - Some debarked dogs DO learn to bark again still! I'm not sure how, but I have seen it happen, and I find the noise they make much worse then a bark!!!! Just plain cruel if you ask me!

Daisy's Mom
14th February 2008, 05:48 PM
There oughta be a law. I can't believe a show breeder would do such a thing! A puppy miller, yes, of course those low-lifes would without a second thought. But a show breeder? Sickening. As others have said, I would run away from that breeder and report him/her to whatever authority outlawed the practice in the UK.

If I didn't pray daily that puppy mills would go completely out of business, I would say that I hope these people come back as their own dogs! That would require puppy mills in the future, though, so I don't wish that.

WoodHaven
14th February 2008, 05:54 PM
OK, I am going to play devils advocate.
IF you had a dog that incessantly barked (neighbors complaining etc...) and it was either rehome the dog (which is pushing your problem on another) or putting the dog down or humanely debarking-- which would you choose. That would be a terrible choice.

FWIW, I really hate debarking-- but I don't want the government to make more laws that will just push more unethical people to do debarking the INHUMANE way.

frecklesmom
14th February 2008, 06:51 PM
Part of barking problems is the "why" of barking. An interesting book, Merle's Door, presents the theory that dogs on cables or dogs behind fences bark and dogs who are not cabled or fenced do not bark. The author lives in a small community where dogs roam at will and there is no barking. Of course this avenue, roaming dogs, is not open to most. I am curious about dogs behind solid fences,i.e. can't see out, and wonder how much they bark.
Dogs, being intelligent, can be trained to live in our world. If all else fails, I'm sure the Monks of New Skete would have a solution to the ingrained barker.
The book, Merle's Door, is a good read and does use a lot of research ( I was surprised) in the personal study of human and dog relationship. Merle, the dog, comes to life on the pages.

Rosewoodsteel
14th February 2008, 07:01 PM
OK, I am going to play devils advocate.
IF you had a dog that incessantly barked (neighbors complaining etc...) and it was either rehome the dog (which is pushing your problem on another) or putting the dog down or humanely debarking-- which would you choose. That would be a terrible choice.

FWIW, I really hate debarking-- but I don't want the government to make more laws that will just push more unethical people to do debarking the INHUMANE way.


Much of the barking problem, imo, is caused by owners who keep their dogs outside for extended periods of time, without supervision. If a dog is inside (unless a person lives in an apartment or condo), barking usually doesn't bother a neighbor. If a pet owner wants to de bark a dog, perhaps they would have been better off choosing a cat...

CavyMom
14th February 2008, 07:40 PM
I've heard the same argument on declawing cats - It's better to declaw a cat then rehome/euthanize - And honestly, I care to disagree. I'm a firm believer in RESOLVING a behavioral problem instead of masking it. As I've mentioned - Debarking does NOT solve the root problem, and in some cases, doesn't even mask it! It causes discomfort for no real reason - Training, managing the dog's environment, and possibly spending that money you would have used to debark the dog on a behaviorist, are much more affective, and better for the dog's long term well being.

WoodHaven
14th February 2008, 07:51 PM
My ultimate point was---- do you want it done inhumanely?? Because some people will just do what they want anyway.

Yes, most of barking is caused my a myriad of problems which basically all stem from lack of training and bad training methods. There are dogs that Can't seem to stop barking (fear, separation- whatever) there are mental illnesses in people and in dogs.

WoodHaven
14th February 2008, 07:57 PM
I've heard the same argument on declawing cats - It's better to declaw a cat then rehome/euthanize - And honestly, I care to disagree. I'm a firm believer in RESOLVING a behavioral problem instead of masking it. As I've mentioned - Debarking does NOT solve the root problem, and in some cases, doesn't even mask it! It causes discomfort for no real reason - Training, managing the dog's environment, and possibly spending that money you would have used to debark the dog on a behaviorist, are much more affective, and better for the dog's long term well being.

As for the declawing of cats-- It is so much easier to say no declawing than it is to actually try to save the life of a rescued feral cat that has caused more than a grand worth of damage to property.

CavyMom
14th February 2008, 08:07 PM
I agree it is - I've rescued many feral cats, I've had alot of damage done to both my home and my vehicles rescuing ferals, However removing their claws only makes them more likely to use their teeth, plus I've seen declawed cats do a TON of damage, it does slow them down some, but they're still destructive. I'm not trying to make an arguement out of this - But I also don't believe there IS a humane way to debark a dog or declaw a cat. Are some ways more humane then others? Definatly, and if someone IS going to do it, I'd rather see that done, and I also agree the making a law against it is NOT the way to solve the problem - But I do think the kennel clubs should outlaw showing a debarked dog - Would it solve the problem? No, but I think it would greatly cut it back!

SHANO
15th February 2008, 07:15 PM
I'm pretty sure Daisy was debarked before we got her. The people that owned her before lived in a condo building. When we got her she NEVER barked. Now, in the matter of a year... a few months ago she actually found her bark. And it is a more quiet bark. And she rarely does it. Wesley has the most SUPER annoying high pitched bark ever. Inside or out! I could never debark him though. Plus I've been reading up on some high pitched noise things you can have out that only the dogs can hear when they bark. Anyone heard of this? Does it work? Is it an ok practice? I need to do something before I actually DO have neighbors that complain. He barks because we ALWAYS have bunnies or birds in our yard. Ideas?! =)

frecklesmom
15th February 2008, 07:33 PM
Neighbors DIL bought a Petsafe product-Outdoor Bark Control (looks like a birdhouse) that has ultrasonic sound. She has 2 Yorkies and a new rescue 8 mo. Westie who introduced the Yorkies to the all out pleasure of barking outside at everything. In 3 days, the outdoor barking had ceased and she removed it. This was last fall and they are still quiet doggies. She brought it to MIL and we experimented with neighbor dogs (shhh) Buddy and Pudge. As long as we got close in range (50 ft.) they responded by reducing their barking-we only tried it for less than an hour. It worked well, they can build up a tolerance if it's used continuously. Is it safe-don't know research on ultrasonic sound.

Justine
15th February 2008, 09:28 PM
I am shocked that is done.Wow.