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gandp
1st March 2008, 07:31 PM
Hello all,

After reading Karlin's post about there being Chocolate colored cavaliers we made it our mission to find a picture for a frame of reference. Even though this color is not recognized it is beautiful. In case your curiosity is peaked here is the link:
http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chatforum/showthread.php?t=8826&page=11

I hope you all enjoy! Look at the eyes!

-P & G

lady and amber
1st March 2008, 09:09 PM
:luv: I think that's one cute dog.

shippers
1st March 2008, 09:15 PM
Thats a cute dog. Nice colour too

Mycavyangels
1st March 2008, 10:23 PM
Awwwwwww i think he/she is Adorable:D and Defently suits the name Rolo:D or chocolate

Daisy's Mom
1st March 2008, 10:49 PM
He is beautiful.

inca
1st March 2008, 11:19 PM
urm nice but def different :)

Elaine 2
1st March 2008, 11:52 PM
I like the colour, he's lovely

gandp
2nd March 2008, 03:17 PM
Does anyone have any more information about chocolate cavaliers? How often do they come up in breeding? Is it like a 1 in 10 rarity or more like 1 in 100? Also if anyone has any further insight into why the color was disqualified in the 70s I'd love to hear it. Thanks in anticipation!

-G

Karlin
2nd March 2008, 03:38 PM
Well the thread is pretty silly in that breeders don't 'cull' chocolate puppies. :rolleyes: They are usually placed in pet homes on neuter contracts unless the breeder keeps them in the line for other desireable reasons (eg good heart history in the line). Simply because a line may produce chocolate dogs now and then does not mean you eliminate the line -- as a matter of fact Susan Cochran who breeds in the US has chocolate genes in her lines (the dog pictured is from her website) and she simply places puppies when they show up in pet homes. They are rare and do not turn up very often, just like blue-eyed tris (we have one from Ireland on our board :)). Also every now and then you get all black cavaliers and they too are not recognised though historically all black spaniels are well known amongst the 'small spaniels' that lie behind the cavalier line.

Like all breeds recognised by clubs you do have to decide on a breed standard and that includes colours. Remember that no breeds had officially 'fixed' looks and standards, including colours, until the formation of the UK Kennel CLub in the late 19th century. Breeding dogs before that was not a 'hobby' or a 'fancy', they were simply bred for whatever purpose they were to be used for, with breeds developed to suit a purpose be it hunting rats, dog fighting, retrieving, rescue, etc. There was no such thing as a cavalier, there was simply a small spaniel type that some people would have bred to a preferred type that they liked (hence the Duke of Wellington bred spaniels of the red and white variety, a colour that became known as blenheim because he lived in Blenheim Palace, named for a famous victorious battle).

I don't think chocolate is a colour that is desired in many, perhaps any of the spaniel breeds. It was not acceptable in the UK CKCS Club from the establishment of the breed standard and the US would simply have more or less followed that standard in the CKCSC and ACKCSC, so it isn't that in the 70s someone suddenly decided not to include chocolate cavaliers. The standards are all the same with tiny exceptions in phrasing.

Susan Cochran used to have a whole public section of her website about the chocolate line but she seems to have removed the links. I am guessing she was probably concerned about backyard breeders deciding to try and get choc puppies to breed with no proper health testing (and no reputable breeder would allow their good quality dogs to be bred with chocolates). Tis has been a problem with black cavaliers -- total BYBs charging extra for a dog not even recognised and from lines they certainly have not ever done even basic health testing on. :mad:

It is a shame about the Cochran chocolate pages though as they were quite interesting. I think she has even blocked them from being picked up by search engines though I believe the pages are still there.

Rosewoodsteel
2nd March 2008, 04:04 PM
Chocolate can become addicting :)

Cavvygirl
2nd March 2008, 05:09 PM
I think it is beautiful!:luv:

Its a shame that it isn't a recognised colour!

Eeva
2nd March 2008, 05:47 PM
Absolutely gorgeous! :luv:

Karlin
2nd March 2008, 06:06 PM
I don't actually care for the colour myself -- find it pretty ugly -- but to each his and her own. :lol:

Incidentally the person who posted on the other board is just totally wrong -- no reputable breeder would EVER kill puppies simply because they don't match breed standard!! The suggestion is UTTERLY LUDICROUS. And breeders who are NOT reputable would be only too glad to boost the price and sell them as a rarity, so just who is 'culling' non standard puppies remains a mystery. :rolleyes: Given the lengths good breeders regularly go to to save the lives of their puppies, including some that due to disability or very small size would never be sold anyway, the notion that they'd have them pts because they are of a nonstandard colour is I must say, one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen stated on a board. :sl*p:

AT
2nd March 2008, 06:13 PM
I don't actually care for the colour myself -- find it pretty ugly -- but to each his and her own. :lol:

Incidentally the person who posted on the other board is just totally wrong -- no reputable breeder would EVER kill puppies simply because they don't match breed standard!! The suggestion is UTTERLY LUDICROUS. And breeders who are NOT reputable would be only too glad to boost the price and sell them as a rarity, so just who is 'culling' non standard puppies remains a mystery. :rolleyes: Given the lengths good breeders regularly go to to save the lives of their puppies, including some that due to disability or very small size would never be sold anyway, the notion that they'd have them pts because they are of a nonstandard colour is I must say, one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen stated on a board. :sl*p:


one of the ridgeback clubs reccomends pups withought a ridge be pts at birth.

I think the chocolate colour & black/ black & white was probably removed from the breed standard because it was evidence of the cross breeding that had occured.

I quite like the chcolate colour. I have heard of chcocolate charlies but they apparently had health problems & did not live long

Karlin
2nd March 2008, 06:14 PM
PS I deleted the direct reposting of the image from Susan's website -- it isn;t good netiquette to repost an actual image from another site because THEY pay for the bandwidth for everyone here to look at it. This is OK perhaps when linking to a site where someone is selling stuff and hence will be happy to have the product viewed but is not proper to do to a personal site where someone may be charged for the extra bandwidth induced by the crossposting.

You need to obtain the breeder's permission to crosspost or link directly to images like this. :thmbsup:

Karlin
2nd March 2008, 06:22 PM
Well ridgeback breeders then are a different matter entirely and if they seriously do this, says a lot about those breeders and their attitude to the breed (unless being ridgeless is linked to serious health condition -- sometimes external features are).

But surely if breeders are killing ridegback puppies simply for lacking a cosmetic feature this is a serious issue for the clubs and RSPCA much less for regulation nationally? Given new legislation in the UK on docking and ear trimming, killing puppies for lacking a ridge seems a serious area of violation on welfare grounds alone and should be raised with relevant authorities.

Regarding cavaliers, I have seen chocolates discussed amongst cavalier breeders many times on the discussion lists and simply no one culls chocolate puppies, the idea is ridiculous. If anything, there's always much interest in the genetics behind them which Susan is always happy to discuss. They are rare enough that there are hardly any born to any show breeders anyway -- Susan is the only show breeder I know of producing them and you cannot find them online for sale even from BYBs.

PS Yep I see from the Wikipedia entry on ridgebacks that ridgeless puppies were 'until recently' culled so they wouldn't be bred! For no apparent reason other than that they lack ridges. That certainly is an argument FOR the kind of welfare legislation that has been introduced in the UK and that the Companion Animal Welfare Council also calls for... beyond belief that healthy puppies would be pts simply for not conforming to a show standard. I'd say the main reason why though is not because they shouldn't be bred, but because they can't sell them as easily. :x

Theresa
2nd March 2008, 07:41 PM
I think the chocolate colour is absolutely adorable!!

However, it is a good job it is not a recognised colour or Mycavyangels would have to have 5 dogs!!!! :p

Lisa_T
2nd March 2008, 10:25 PM
*g* Her response to that should be funny...

I have to admit I do like the choc, despite the resemblance to a form of chocolate that I loathe... I actually have the pic in my files that was posted here of a choc puppy, but since I don't know/can't remember the origin of the image, I may not be able to post it. Karlin, is this allowed?

chloe'sdee
3rd March 2008, 01:01 PM
Well I just happens that Chloe's best friend is a chocolate. The picture that was posted in this thread was his Dad. My girlfriends dog is over a year now and he's a cutie pie. I only have puppy pictures of him but I'll have my girlfriend send me more recent pictures if anyone wants to see him. His name is Koda Bear...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1033/547948139_e6b5d3332a.jpg

you can see his light eyes
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1247/547948177_4ff80ca533_b.jpg


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1197/547947917_713b55656b_b.jpg

Enjoy

Cavvygirl
3rd March 2008, 01:39 PM
Wow he is Gorgeous!!!!!!!!!!:luv:

jcj528
3rd March 2008, 01:42 PM
Okay so now I want a Black and Tan AND a Chocolate! Thanks alot, guys. Both color variations are just too adorable for words . . . to me anyway. Any breeder out there looking for a pet to "quitely place" a chocolate in a loving home would have to look no further than me!

chloe'sdee
3rd March 2008, 03:46 PM
Here are some new pictures of Koda.....

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2307127117_dcf58a6ddc.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3194/2307155881_8f7e883ed6_o.jpg

his ear on his head...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/2307931246_a081920ac1_o.jpg

He's a sweet boy.

inca
3rd March 2008, 03:48 PM
I don't actually care for the colour myself -- find it pretty ugly -- but to each his and her own. :lol:

Incidentally the person who posted on the other board is just totally wrong -- no reputable breeder would EVER kill puppies simply because they don't match breed standard!! The suggestion is UTTERLY LUDICROUS. And breeders who are NOT reputable would be only too glad to boost the price and sell them as a rarity, so just who is 'culling' non standard puppies remains a mystery. :rolleyes: Given the lengths good breeders regularly go to to save the lives of their puppies, including some that due to disability or very small size would never be sold anyway, the notion that they'd have them pts because they are of a nonstandard colour is I must say, one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen stated on a board. :sl*p:

agree 100% even the name chocolate has been made to make them sound more attractive than a miscolored black and tan
with poor pigmentation!! it does nothing for me as for adding them to the breed standard NO THANKS .....cute but not for me

gandp
3rd March 2008, 07:11 PM
I do believe chocolate cavaliers have their own gene. Hence it is a separate color, not a discolored black and tan. The gene just happens to be recessive. Like blue eyes in humans.

-G

Cathryn
3rd March 2008, 10:36 PM
Hi!

Yup Koda is incredibly cute, I do recall there was a Stud dog here in the UK many years back (70's I believe) who also sired purely Black and White's only too (NO pictures), however, call me a purist or whatever this particular colouring does seem to be destined for the "trendy" and "Well heeled" market! ( A certain celebrity PH nudge, nudge, wink wink for one most sadly) Breed standards do exist for a reason, but there are times when dogs are born away from this, EG: White Boxers. I personnally would love to meet a Chocolate Cavalier in real life, how I'd feel about one as a breeder?? Until I am in that situation I quite simply cannot comment!!

Cathy T
3rd March 2008, 11:29 PM
Chocolate can become addicting :smile:


:):):)

Good thing it's not a recognized color...you're right!! Suzanne would definitely have to add to her flock!! ;)

I think the all brown are cute and Koda Bear is absolutely adorable. I think it's neat when an original one comes along (like the half mask faces, blue eyes and heart shaped marking) but think it's dead-wrong to breed specifically for what is considered a fault.

If we bred for them....they wouldn't be unique anymore!! ;)http://board.cavaliertalk.com/images/misc/progress.gif