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Brian M
1st March 2008, 09:39 PM
Hi
Having read so much good advice about what questions need to be asked regarding the amount of health problems that can beset our beloved cavalier breed and only having three i still have a growing desire at the back of my mind to possibly go out and purchase a b&t and thereby complete The Full Set ,one of my reasons is that they have totally won me over and the more i think the more i know i can go from three to four but preliminary talks with the good lady have not even started.
But were do i start Poppy was decided on a bank hol monday and after consultig the kc list we got her on wed , Daisy i wanted a blenheim with a good show pedigree so i approached Lorraine Hughes and after a bit of wait Daisy came along Rosie was similar to Poppy ie through the KC for availability then a phone call to Joyce Wilson in Doncaster then a drive and back home. But if i want a fourth and dont forget all my cav girls are only 7,13,19 months so i have no hard times but after all my reading i now realise what can and probaly will happen in due course, so i can only minimise my heartbreakand their suffering by following what you have advised, so do i write down a list of say ten health questions then approach the recc breeders through the cav club or the kennel club and knowing i would want a 3 month b&t with poss a show or very good pedigree (not for breeding or showing i have def gone off that idea just to be my pet and join my other girls in a life of luxury where the answer is normally yes cos they go before me) and do you think a pup exists that can poss pass all these questions on heart ears eyes and clear parents and show documents to prove and be show potetential and also three months old and a b&t.
Would one exist.If so where would i find such a specific young lady.

Elaine 2
2nd March 2008, 12:05 AM
Could you not go back to the girls breeders and ask if they have any B/T pups or if they know any one selling a litter at the moment they might be happy to help you find your new girl, good luck

Karlin
2nd March 2008, 01:47 AM
Brian, no one can sell you a real show potential puppy until that puppy is at least 6 months old -- breeders simply cannot tell much about a puppy's potential before it begins to mature. In addition no reputable breeder is likely to sell a show potential puppy unless you are demonstrating a clear intention to show the dog and that requires keeping the dog intact -- and no reputable breeders are willing to sell a valuable show potential puppy on open registration (eg with breeding capability) to someone who isn't already established or visibly establishing themselves as someone also of repute with the dog's and breed's best interests at heart. Also, this should make no difference anyway for a pet puppy -- none of us without show experience would ever be able to tell the difference between a show and pet quality puppy anyway and it simply doesn't matter for a dog intended as a pet. If you really want to show, you are going to need to start putting in time getting involved with the clubs, establishing yourself amongst reputable health focused breeders, etc. Expect to put in a year or two at least in preparation and expect to only co-own the dog as this will be the arrangement made by any reputable breeder with a novice. So really there is just little point in seeking out a show dog and paying the extra for one (and it would completely waste the show and genetic potential of a show quality dog not to show it).

Any quality pet puppy from a show breeder will have a good pedigree and will likely have at least three champion dogs in the first three generations. Any reputable health focused breeder will be able to show you heart certs on parents and grandparents and will have info on eyes and patellas. Some breeders also now MRI and personally I would only ever take a puppy myself from breeders who are MRIing their breeding stock -- I would want information on both parents. However this is harder to find.

The only way to find a good health focused breeder is to ask the questions yourself and ask for certs to prove their focus on health -- there are very few shortcuts outside of looking for recommendations and then still asking all the questions yourself and asking for documentation.You might start by returning to the breeders you initially used and asking for health certs (however, please do not discuss here exactly what they do or do not do :thmbsup:).

The bottom line is that ANY puppy should ALWAYS come from a show breeder and have a good pedigree with show background, and the breeder should always have tested hearts, eyes, patellas etc. Any reputable health focused breeder will be doing all these things. It isn't a special request, it is the norm for a good breeder. To support any other type of breeder means you support continuing health problems and an unethical approach to breeding. The breeder may be either ignorant or deliberately not bothering, but if they are breeding indifferent quality dogs with no focus on health they are contributing to the breed's problems, not towards a healthy future in their lines, and that means for both pet and show dogs. Pet quality is never a compromise in quality from any reputable breeder, it merely means that due to some minor differences from the ideal breed standard, the dog is not of that very tiny portion worth retaining for breeding or showing.

Theresa
2nd March 2008, 07:58 PM
If both the parents are free from heart murmurs at 5 years old, Karlin, does it guarantee that the puppies will be also???

WoodHaven
2nd March 2008, 08:10 PM
If both the parents are free from heart murmurs at 5 years old, Karlin, does it guarantee that the puppies will be also???

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Genes are tricky lil things. Two OFA EXCELLENT (great hips) parents can give birth to a dog with HD.

It is all about bettering the odds.

Brian M
2nd March 2008, 09:24 PM
Hi

Thanks for the replies ,maybe i was not that correct in mentioning show potential , as i previously said after all your kind guidance on another post i do not think i have the time or patience or years of knowledge of all the excellent breeders on our web so after your kind advice, pets only for me , possibly what i should have said "was a quality puppy with a lot of the points that make a show dog but not quite and therefore instead of winning lots of awards and envious looks would just be content to be a spoilt pet with my other three ", which by the way after our regular Sunday walks are all once again flat out on the bed snoring away. It would certainly be a plus point for breeders who do have pups available occasionally to selected homes to mention on their own websites that these health checks/scans are done it would help people who are searching for a pup to know prior to inquiring that this particular breeder goes to this length to protect the breed

Cathryn
2nd March 2008, 09:54 PM
"DEEP BREATH BEFORE PLUNGING IN HEADFIRST........AGAIN!!"

Karlin has already given some VERY sound advice, but I feel I must add that some influential stud dogs within the breed have indeed been what were once considered "Pet Quality" by their breeders/owners. Seldom do we get a stud dog whom is BOTH a Champion AND who can produce quality pups to ALL bloodlines!! YES there are such dogs, and to give examples within the last 15 years I will name Homerbrent Jeremy at Cottismeer, a heavily marked Tri-Colour whom was never shown himself yet would not only sire 3 Champions (One of whom was a breed UK Breed Record winner for most Challenge Certificates won) but also many, many more high winning dogs, his Champion Son, Toraylac Joshua, another incredibly prolific and influential stud dog (behind my entire line!)

Then moving forwards the incredible beautiful Champion litter brothers Ch. Lymrey Royal Reflection of Ricksbury (Breed Challenge Certificate Record Winner) and Ch. Lymrey Royal Scandal of Ricksbury (Top Stud Dog Winner) BOTH of whom are behind many top dogs in the recent decade, and moving forwards to a couple of other dogs whose names are well known within the breed!

I guess what I am trying to say is that a pedigree is one thing, looks are another!!

If you want a quality puppy with a reasonable pedigree behind it then go to your regional club secretary/puppy list holder, all breeders advertising on a club list have signed a code of ethics, they routinely health test their breeding stock and you will get a quality puppy from them in time. You should be prepared to wait for the right puppy to find you! I currently may be able to help you if looking for a boy, but other than this advice can help no further! HTH??