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View Full Version : To give grub the big snip?( or let him be ferel)



OhMarley
15th March 2008, 04:42 AM
I know this topic has been done to death but as it looms closer I keep wondering what’s going to happen.
Marley is a year on the 21st of this month and we are thinking its time to get him castrated. In terms of coat and temperament what experiences have the rest of you had when castrating a little later down the track?
And for those who haven’t had your dogs done, did you find once they got a little older they settled down a little? And stop embarrassing you in public hahahahaha

AT
15th March 2008, 09:18 AM
I know this topic has been done to death but as it looms closer I keep wondering what’s going to happen.
Marley is a year on the 21st of this month and we are thinking its time to get him castrated. In terms of coat and temperament what experiences have the rest of you had when castrating a little later down the track?
And for those who haven’t had your dogs done, did you find once they got a little older they settled down a little? And stop embarrassing you in public hahahahaha

my boy is now 3 & entire & doesnt smell as much as he did when he was a teenager. apart from peeing on my foot once he hasnt been too much of an embarrassment lol ( he does like the ladies though )

My sister had her dog done at around 3 years old , made no difference to his bad behaviour & his coat went fluffy.
she had the other one done at about 7 again coat went fluffy. but he is not quite so interested in finding girls. He still marks when he comes to my house though

*Pauline*
15th March 2008, 11:56 AM
my boy is now 3 & entire & doesnt smell as much as he did when he was a teenager.

Oh I'll look forward to less smell times then! Dylan stinks after marking on a walk, he needs his feet and belly washed every time. :rolleyes:

Barbara Nixon
15th March 2008, 12:42 PM
it's reckoned that a little cider vinegar in the drinking water helps. i think it did with Monty and Izzy, but Joly and teddy seem to know it's there and won't drink the water.

Daisy's Mom
15th March 2008, 01:48 PM
We had a male toy poodle growing up, and we had him neutered at the earliest acceptable age. He never humped a single time in his life, he never marked indoors at all (as far as we know), and he was a wonderful, beautiful, loving dog who lived to be 17 years old. I don't know how much timing made a difference, but he had never humped anything or anyone before he was neutered, so I guess he never had the urge to start after he was neutered.

Unless he is a show dog that is going to be bred, I don't see a significant downside to neutering him. Weighing a fluffier coat against humping, marking, and going after females (and apparently being smellier? I didn't know that) would be a VERY easy decision for me. Give me fluff any day of the week! :)

This is a little off topic, but the people I give the major props to are the people who take in an unhousetrained, unneutered adult male rescue! Special blessings are waiting for these people who go through the housetraining process with these guys. I can't even imagine. I fostered a dog like this for 10 days and he was a complete maniac, trying to mark everything and everyone in sight! He must have been about 2 standard deviations above the mean for marking behavior, even for unneutered males (at least I hope so). I kept a belly band on him every minute that he was inside. Otherwise, our house would have smelled like a kennel within about a day. I know it's a different story if you have a male from the time he is a puppy and housetrain him from the beginning, thank goodness.

He was the sweetest, most loving little guy in the world, but he lifted his leg about 10-15 times an hour on whatever would hold still long enough for him to aim at. It actually became kind of comical to watch him. He was wearing the belly band with an absorbant pad inside, and he would lift that little leg over and over. I changed his pad at least 10 times a day! I took him outside probably once an hour on average, to no avail. I'm sure neutering and patient housetraining stopped this habit in his longer-term foster home (I'm told it did), but I don't think I would have had the patience. There are wonderful people in this world who go through all that process and then place these dogs with someone else and then do it all over again with another dog. Bless them! I know my limitations and I could not do it.

Cathryn
15th March 2008, 02:18 PM
Hmm at the end of the day only you can really make the decision! Coats do generally become more unruly and more flyaway, but there are the odd exceptions to the rule. Personnally speaking I would only neuter on health grounds I.E undescended testicle/s or if the dog was getting more aggressive or marking all the time. I accept that it is a requirement that rescue dogs are spayed/neutered however!

Ironically, none of my entire males really look for places to "mark" when we are out walking, we get the occassionnal "deposit" (swiftly cleared up) but my lads ALWAYS ask to go out in the garden when we get back from a walk and do their business out there!! :p :p

pippa
15th March 2008, 02:18 PM
My two boys are neutered. With Pippin I had no choice as he had an undecended testicle. I could have left Gus but my vet advised that as he was not being used for breeding or showing it would be healthier and safer to have him done,the breeder advised this also when we got him as a puppy.. I prefer them to be neutered but I guess it is a matter of personal opinion.


By the way Gus still marks and a friend of mine has a neutered male who still marks also.

Karlin
15th March 2008, 03:36 PM
First: wasn't neutering part of your pet onwership contract with the breeder? This is usually not a choice because most responsible breeders always require neutering to avoid their dogs being bred.

Second: over 70% of dogs in the pound are typically intact males. Intact males are more likely to roam, are more likely to get into fights, and are far more likely to die in pounds and traffic accidents as a result. More intact males are surrendered to pounds due to behaviour issues like humping, marking, breaking out of their homes/gardens and roaming, barking. I just counted through the stray dog listings on an Irish welfare site and around 45 are intact males while 16 are females. That is typical.

Third: Marley will always be far more attractive to thieves as an intact dog as he can then be used for breeding.

Fourth: I have seen very few dogs, male or female, altered in any significant way coat-wise by neutering. My males have exactly the same coat they did at age 6 months! I've rarely seen changes in any fit and healthy altered dog. I see lots of changes in fat unfit dogs or those fed poor diets. Most cavalier pets I see are overweight and do not have distinct waists and it is statistical fact that most people have overweight pets and therefor would see coat changes due to this alone. Most pet owners would not even be able to tell the difference in the coat changes that may occur as they are so subtle. A minor aesthetic issue at any rate is far outweighed as far as I am concerned by responsible ownership (meaning preventing unwanted litters and the millions of dead puppies and dogs annually in the US, and the tens of thousands in the UK and Ireland, which for me ALWAYS means neutering (and which every welfare group that deals with rescue dogs or pound always advises and insists on for their own rehomed dogs). I invite anyone who feels otherwise to volunteer in the pound for two weeks, watching how many puppies end up piled in the freezer to be taken off to rendering plants, much less the adults. It is probably the single most sick-making spectacle for any animal lover to see, and the one most likely to make people aware of what their own decisions have the potential to influence. It isn;t OTHER people's responsibility, it is OURS. Cavalier crosses are as hard to home as crosses of any other breed. And unreclaimed stray cavaliers regularly die in pounds in the US and UK and Ireland. Many will not release dogs to rescue, and many times the dogs have probably strayed too far or been stolen and dumped far from home so the owner never checks that pound.

Fifth: I routinely have had to neuter old males at a difficult time for them to have this operation because of prostate problems that frequently crop up in unaltered boys.

Sixth: If you choose to keep your dog intact, a responsible owner can NEVER allow the dog off lead or confined to the house. Such owners are as 100% responsible for avoiding an unwanted litter of puppies as the owner of an intact in heat female. I am so sick and tired of the excuse that 'only females need to be altered and their owners should be the responsible ones'. I wonder if such people have ever done pound rescue and seen how male dogs die in a 3 to 1 ratio to females because so many of their owners took this attitude? Many owners also cannot tell their female has even gone into heat anyway (as evidenced by posts all the time to boards like this!) and aren;t aware of how long the females must be confined or the drive for both sexes to escape when intact... and she will be as rabid to get out and roam to find males as males are if they sniff a female in heat... traveling well over a mile away to find them.

And finally -- I think few breeders will have found that urine ever decreases in smell in intact boys. The owner, however, may get more used to it. Hormones are hormones and the reason males mark and have stinky urine is because they are defining territory etc. This doesn't decline with age.

Cathy T
15th March 2008, 03:44 PM
Third: Marley will always be far more attractive to thieves as an intact dog as he can then be used for breeding.

This is an excellent point that I think few people look at. I'm pointing it out more and more as we are seeing more thefts of Cavaliers. Jake and Shelby have no "value" to anyone but me since they are altered. I've been in touch with a woman who has an 8 month old unneutered male and the creepy crawly people are coming out of the woodwork to try and get her to breed. I also strongly warned her about keeping an eye on him at all times because of the fear of theft. A sad thing to have to worry about....but it's a fact.

Pros vs cons.....if you aren't breeding/showing I think it's best to alter. My unprofessional opinion as a pet owner who has seen way too many scary things in the past year.

Karlin
15th March 2008, 03:52 PM
WHAT ARE THE HEALTH BENEFITS TO THE DOG?

There are several health benefits to neutering. One of the most important concerns the prostate gland, which under the influence of testosterone will gradually enlarge over the course of the dog’s life. In age, it is likely to become uncomfortable, possibly being large enough to interfere w/defecation. The prostate under the influence of testosterone is also predisposed to infection which is almost impossible to clear up without neutering. Neutering causes the prostate to shrink into insignificance thus preventing both prostatitis as well as the uncomfortable benign hyperplasia (enlargement) that occurs with aging. It is often erroneously held that neutering prevents prostate cancer but this is not true.

Other health benefits of neutering include the prevention of certain types of hernias and tumors of the testicles and anus. Excessive preputial discharge is also reduced by neutering.

[Back to Index of Questions]

WHAT BEHAVIORAL CHANGES CAN BE EXPECTED AFTER NEUTER?

The only behavior changes that are observed after neutering relate to behaviors influenced by male hormones. Playfulness, friendliness, and socialization with humans are not changed. The behaviors that change are far less desirable. The interest in roaming is eliminated in 90% of neutered dogs. Aggressive behavior against other male dogs is eliminated in 60% of neutered dogs. Urine marking is eliminated in 50% of neutered male dogs. Inappropriate mounting is eliminated in 70% of neutered dogs.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_neuter.html

I have seen studies that argue there are some health risks to set against health benefits but in these studies, the ratios are far smaller for increased risk due to neutering than they are for lowered risks due to neutering. And at the end of the day, pet population control -- and preventing cavaliers from being misused for breeding -- always is the overriding factor.


US Statistics:




Using the National Council on Pet Population Study and Policy's numbers from 1997 and estimating the number of operating shelters in the United States to be 3,500 (the exact number of animal shelters operating in the United States does not exist), here are the statistics:

* Of the 1,000 shelters that replied to the National Council's survey, 4.3 million animals were handled.
* In 1997 roughly 64% of the total number of animals that entered shelters were euthanized -- approximately 2.7 million animals in just these 1,000 shelters.These animals may have been put down due to overcrowding, but may have been sick, aggressive, injured, or suffered something else.
* 56% of dogs and 71% of cats that enter animal shelters are euthanized. More cats are euthanized than dogs because they are more likely to enter a shelter without any owner identification.
* Only 15% of dogs and 2% of cats that enter animal shelters are reunited with their owners.
* 25% of dogs and 24% of cats that enter animal shelters are adopted.

It is from these numbers that we estimated what is occurring nationwide. It is widely accepted that 9.6 million animals are euthanized annually in the United States.

More context from a US pound website:


Pets should be a lifetime commitment. They are not disposable.

Each year 10-12 million pets are euphemized in the United States. That is 192,000/week 27,000 every 24 hours 365 days a year.

70,000 kittens and puppies are born every day in the U.S. Every hour 415 children are born, 3,500 kittens ore also born in that hour. One out of every 4 is destroyed daily.

Unwanted litters face the cruel fate of pain, hunger, homelessness and disease.


Good reasons to spay or neuter your pet...

Calming effect on your pet. Altered animals make more affectionate companions. Irresponsible breeding contributes to the problem of dog bites and attacks. Altered animals are less likely to bite because they are more even-tempered.

Increasing your pet's safety. Neutered males are less likely to roam, run away, or get into fights. Spayed females are less likely to attract unwanted animals into your yard.

Extending your pet's life. Altered animals live longer, healthier lives. Female cats and dogs have reduced risks of uterine, ovarian, and breast cancers. Male cats and dogs have reduced risks of prostate cancer, testicular cancer, and other disorders, illnesses, and diseases.

Having a cleaner home! Neutered cats are less likely to spray and mark territory. Spaying eliminates carpet stains from bloody fluid passed by female dogs during the heat cycle.

Sparing the lives of unwanted pets. Only 1 in 9 cats and dogs born in the U.S. will find a home. The rest will be destroyed because nobody wants them. Communities spend millions of dollars to control and eliminate unwanted animals. Animal shelters are overburdened with surplus animals.

OhMarley
17th March 2008, 11:58 AM
I'm a vet nurse and have worked in clinics for years now i know about the medical pros and cons of sterilization. Its a constant debate and all vets have a different opinion.
All I want to know is individual experiences in relation to coat and temprement.
Marley is going to be fixed its just a matter of when, probably in a fortnight maybe a little later.
No we didnt have a contract with the breeder to get him sterilized, that isn't really something that happens over here. We had an unaltered male cavalier before we were responsible owners, he never had unwanted puppies, went roaming or any of these other issues raised. He was castrated when he was 7. Although I understand where everyone is coming from sometimes the way things are done or said can be rather aggressive and off putting. It would be nice to ask a question and have a discussion instead of being made to feel like your the enemy

Cathy Moon
17th March 2008, 11:26 PM
All I want to know is individual experiences in relation to coat and temprement.

It would be nice to ask a question and have a discussion instead of being made to feel like your the enemy

My experience with Geordie, who was neutered at 5-6 months: His coat is the most lovely of my cavs and requires no thinning or trimming, just brushing. He is my most active dog, too, and has no problem with weight gain. He doesn't lift his leg at all and has never marked. Walking him is a pleasure; it's like walking one of my girl cavs. He sometimes humps if he happens to be leaning on the chair cushion while watching the world go by out the window, but can be easily distracted from it. All in all, I have no regrets about neutering him. :flwr:

He has always been hyper, even before neutering, and I now believe it is from having mild hydrocephalus (& SM). Being hyper is a symptom of hydrocephalus. We have managed to channel it into activities like agility (just for fun, not competition) and obedience, where he excels. :flwr:

ppotterfield
18th March 2008, 01:45 PM
Karlin: I think this post is one for the Library. I would love to be able to find it easily when people ask me about neutering.


First: wasn't neutering part of your pet onwership contract with the breeder? This is usually not a choice because most responsible breeders always require neutering to avoid their dogs being bred.

Second: over 70% of dogs in the pound are typically intact males. Intact males are more likely to roam, are more likely to get into fights, and are far more likely to die in pounds and traffic accidents as a result. More intact males are surrendered to pounds due to behaviour issues like humping, marking, breaking out of their homes/gardens and roaming, barking. I just counted through the stray dog listings on an Irish welfare site and around 45 are intact males while 16 are females. That is typical.

Third: Marley will always be far more attractive to thieves as an intact dog as he can then be used for breeding.

Fourth: I have seen very few dogs, male or female, altered in any significant way coat-wise by neutering. My males have exactly the same coat they did at age 6 months! I've rarely seen changes in any fit and healthy altered dog. I see lots of changes in fat unfit dogs or those fed poor diets. Most cavalier pets I see are overweight and do not have distinct waists and it is statistical fact that most people have overweight pets and therefor would see coat changes due to this alone. Most pet owners would not even be able to tell the difference in the coat changes that may occur as they are so subtle. A minor aesthetic issue at any rate is far outweighed as far as I am concerned by responsible ownership (meaning preventing unwanted litters and the millions of dead puppies and dogs annually in the US, and the tens of thousands in the UK and Ireland, which for me ALWAYS means neutering (and which every welfare group that deals with rescue dogs or pound always advises and insists on for their own rehomed dogs). I invite anyone who feels otherwise to volunteer in the pound for two weeks, watching how many puppies end up piled in the freezer to be taken off to rendering plants, much less the adults. It is probably the single most sick-making spectacle for any animal lover to see, and the one most likely to make people aware of what their own decisions have the potential to influence. It isn;t OTHER people's responsibility, it is OURS. Cavalier crosses are as hard to home as crosses of any other breed. And unreclaimed stray cavaliers regularly die in pounds in the US and UK and Ireland. Many will not release dogs to rescue, and many times the dogs have probably strayed too far or been stolen and dumped far from home so the owner never checks that pound.

Fifth: I routinely have had to neuter old males at a difficult time for them to have this operation because of prostate problems that frequently crop up in unaltered boys.

Sixth: If you choose to keep your dog intact, a responsible owner can NEVER allow the dog off lead or confined to the house. Such owners are as 100% responsible for avoiding an unwanted litter of puppies as the owner of an intact in heat female. I am so sick and tired of the excuse that 'only females need to be altered and their owners should be the responsible ones'. I wonder if such people have ever done pound rescue and seen how male dogs die in a 3 to 1 ratio to females because so many of their owners took this attitude? Many owners also cannot tell their female has even gone into heat anyway (as evidenced by posts all the time to boards like this!) and aren;t aware of how long the females must be confined or the drive for both sexes to escape when intact... and she will be as rabid to get out and roam to find males as males are if they sniff a female in heat... traveling well over a mile away to find them.

And finally -- I think few breeders will have found that urine ever decreases in smell in intact boys. The owner, however, may get more used to it. Hormones are hormones and the reason males mark and have stinky urine is because they are defining territory etc. This doesn't decline with age.