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tinkertime
29th March 2008, 06:58 PM
I am considering purchasing a tri. Her conformation is great, great personality and generally checks out as potential show. The problem is her markings are not symmetrical on each side of her face. Is this a fault? Will this elminate her as a show dog?

Thanks!!

Karlin
29th March 2008, 07:23 PM
Well, I guess the first thought that springs to mind is, who is the breeder who is selling her as show potential? (NB DON'T name the breeder publicly please!! ). There are a lot of questionable breeders who sell what they call show potential puppies to very unsuspecting and trusting but inexperienced buyers. If you are working with a breeder who isn't working very closely with you on this and hasn't discussed all this in detail so that you know what the strengths and weaknesses of this dog are, and who is willing to sell on open registration a bitch of her breeding-- I'd be pretty concerned that this is someone having you on. Also -- how old is the puppy? No breeder can predict a show potential puppy at a young age. In addition, very few reputable breeders will sell show potential female cavaliers to someone who doesn't already have some show experience unless it is a co-own situation with someone who has been mentored somewhere with another reputable breeder -- because of the risk of someone breeding improperly. It sounds like this probably isn't the case with you -- eg that you aren't working with a mentor -- as an experienced mentor could most accurately answer your question?

This isn't a criticism of you at all; it is just a red flag about the breeder that would come across from the admittedly small amount of detail in your post. There are so many scam breeders out there -- especially ones who sell higher priced dogs that are not remotely show quality to the unsuspecting interested in getting into showing -- that I'd just move with extreme caution.

I am sure some of our show breeders here can give advice and directly address your questions too. :thmbsup: Some may be willing to discuss this privately with you and might have some knowledge of this breeder.

Generally tri heads should be pretty symmetrical -- the AKC standard specifically notes markings should be evenly spaced on tris but this seems to refer more to the black not the tan. However markings are probably the single least important element on a cavalier as far as judges are concerned -- the icing on the cake, not the cake. The cake is far more important.


Tricolor - Jet black markings well broken up on a clear, pearly white ground. The ears must be black and the color evenly spaced on the head and surrounding both eyes, with a white blaze between the eyes. Rich tan markings over the eyes, on cheeks, inside ears and on underside of tail.

Nancy
29th March 2008, 07:40 PM
I agree with Karlin and would be happy to help you evaluate whether enough is developed to know if this puppy and its age can be determined for show potential. Also, a tri girl is the hardest to obtain, most breeders do not let these go easily or place with someone they know. Feel free to PM me anytime.

tinkertime
29th March 2008, 08:50 PM
Wow, thanks for the great advice. I truly am a novice and I need to hear these things.

I should first clarify that I am looking for a Cavalier for my 10 and 11-year-old daughters to show at 4-H and Jr. Showmanship events. The breeder has told me that this dog is show "potential" not show quality.

Thanks!

Nancy
29th March 2008, 08:52 PM
Do you have pictures you can post? That is what most people do with show potential puppies, as many pictures as you can get, and you have a lot of good eyes on this board.

tinkertime
29th March 2008, 09:59 PM
Img_0433img_0433img_0433

tinkertime
29th March 2008, 10:06 PM
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/default/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/default/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.jpghmm...that didn't work. I guess I don't know how to paste pictures from flikr!

Nancy
29th March 2008, 10:07 PM
I use photobucket

tinkertime
29th March 2008, 10:14 PM
Img_0433

Cavalli CKCS
29th March 2008, 10:17 PM
Short and sweet...If it is very obvious it is a fault. But there have been a few minor cases where Champions have got made up when it was there but not that obvious....

....Three wonderful words spring to mind in this thread.....RONNOC TRUE LUCK

Evan

tinkertime
29th March 2008, 10:19 PM
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/default/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-4.jpg IMG_0433


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http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2160/2371500215_8ef253a98f_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/25148311@N03/2371500215/)

Cavalli CKCS
29th March 2008, 11:04 PM
Where are the facial markings?

Nancy
29th March 2008, 11:40 PM
Hard to tell from that picture, I think you mean the blaze is off center, the other markings look symmetrical. Do you have any other pictures? body shots? how old is the puppy?

tinkertime
29th March 2008, 11:43 PM
OK it took me an hour to download that picture! I am not very computer-savvy. I have a couple more side views but for some reason I can't seem to copy and paste them!

Anyway, it's kind of hard to tell in the picture, but the markings on the face are asymmetrical. The color goes around each eye, but it goes down further on one side of the face.

I have to say this is pretty cool that I found you all. I am from a small town in Oregon, USA.

tinkertime
29th March 2008, 11:46 PM
Hi Nancy-

How patient you've been with me! The puppy is 8 weeks old. The head is very square and the ears seem set right also. Very healthy puppy. I will try again and send another picture of a side view.

tinkertime
29th March 2008, 11:48 PM
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http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2160/2371500215_8ef253a98f_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/25148311@N03/2371500215/)
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Uploaded on Mar 29, 2008 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/25148311@N03/archives/date-posted/2008/03/29/) | Delete (http://www.flickr.com/photo_delete.gne?id=2372335918&photos_url=%2Fphotos%2F25148311%40N03%2F)
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Nancy
30th March 2008, 12:06 AM
It is so hard to tell from those pictures. The head seems nice, but you need a standing shot too. I will say this again, the chance of you getting a top female show tri as a newby is really small, so she may be as good as you can get. If you have your heart set on a tri and are aware that she may not be a Champion, if she is from a top breeder that does all the testing, at a reasonable price, it may be worth the gamble.

Karlin
30th March 2008, 12:14 AM
To paste a pic from Flickr you need to choose the 'different sizes' option at the top menu, then pick a size, then choose NOT the url from the very top of the page -- as that is for the entire page, not the pic itself! Instead look under the pic and you can see an option to take just the url; copy that and paste it inhere using the IMG tags. There are directions on how to post pictures pinned a the top of the main Gallery section.

At the moment you are posting the entire page image and all the text from the page as well. The pic alone will end in .jpg :thmbsup:

Karlin
30th March 2008, 12:21 AM
I'd echo Nancy here -- be careful. Personally, I would simply not trust a breeder talking about show 'potential' on an 8 week puppy who is willing to part with her to an unknown context unless for example this is a very reputable show breeder and personal friend doing a personal favour. It just would not be normal for someone to home a show potential female -- *especially* a female -- once you get to know certain types of websites, you learn that usually those kind of terms are shorthand amongst backyard breeders to let people know they will sell them breeding dogs so they can set up their own breeding operation. Just be very, very careful and take the advice of someone who is a KNOWN and reputable breeder in the area. If this particular breeder lives in the Washington state area please PM me as there is a known felon selling what she would call show potential puppies at what would seem good prices in the Pacific Northwest region. She sells under a range of names and comes across as very nice and knowledgable: http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=13258. We have at least one board member who was going to buy 'show potential' females from her.

Nancy
30th March 2008, 12:37 AM
I want to add that I've been waiting 3 years for a tri female, just ask Sandy. And of course, my Nina just had the most delicious tri BOY. A lot of breeders just make their own because they are so difficult to obtain.

Karlin
30th March 2008, 12:44 AM
A lot of breeders just make their own

:lol: Sounds like 'eye of newt, wing of bat'...

tinkertime
30th March 2008, 12:56 AM
Thanks for the tips on posting pictures. I've never done anything like that and it's always fun to learn new things.

I am a little nervous and I read about the breeder in Washington state. I live close to Washington and I will definitely be careful.

As for selling me a female tri, I guess I just considered myself lucky to find this breeder because, like you said, no one was willing to sell me a female with breeding rights. She doesn't show herself, but she has dogs of champion lines. Her male is from the Sheeba line which I'm a big fan of.

Anyway, thanks for all your help. After all this she probably sold it because I've been hesitating for two days. I guess there's just too many red flags!

-Theresa

Daisy's Mom
30th March 2008, 03:08 AM
Good luck to you -- you are right to be careful and it sounds like you are appropriately skeptical and will ask the right questions.

BTW, our Daisy is from a Sheeba sire -- Sheeba Harry Potter. We think she's perfect, of course, because we love her to pieces. Her blaze is asymmetrical, too, but much more dramatically so than the little girl you are considering. I don't know if you can tell from my little picture of Daisy, but one side of her blaze goes straight back and the other side makes a fairly sharp angle over her right eye. We bought her as a pet, of course and she is spayed. She's also got 5 little perfectly spaced freckles around her nose.

I'm sure if I ever tried to get into showing and pick out a real show potential puppy, I'd just pick the one that was prettiest to me and I'd get nowhere! I think they are all so beautiful and I love the feminine faces, like Alrene Henrietta (sp?). I think she is the most gorgeous dog I've ever seen. I've only seen pictures, but they just blow me away. She apparently has a whole lot going for her than just that gorgeous face because she does so well in the show ring.

JeanKC
30th March 2008, 05:29 AM
I can only speak to the face issue... but I've looked at a LOT of Cavalier websites the past couple years and have seen plenty of championed dogs whose faces doesn't look as good as that one. For what it's worth...

Cavvygirl
30th March 2008, 10:20 AM
Can I interrupt your thread and ask why it is so difficult to get a tri girl?

Is it just difficult to get a "show" tri girl with all the right markings or just difficult to get a tri girl full stop?:confused:

Cathryn
30th March 2008, 11:08 AM
Can I interrupt your thread and ask why it is so difficult to get a tri girl?

Is it just difficult to get a "show" tri girl with all the right markings or just difficult to get a tri girl full stop?:confused:

Because basically it is the hardest of all the four colours to get right! I have tried and tried to get a well broken Tri girl, I came close a couple of times but sadly the pups were stillborn :( Basically I have 3 Tri girls here, one is beautifully broken on her non show side (Right hand side) and totally black on her show side (Left hand side) I did show her a few times (Just turned her around) but the judges will always ask you to turn them the right way around to see what you are "hiding" :rotfl:
The other 2 girls are very heavily marked but nicely made so they have been kept for breeding and will be mated to well broken Blenheims with the HOPE that there might, just might, be a well broken Tri-Girl in there that I can show. :xfngr:

Basically a Tri-colour bitch be she a show potential puppy or merely being kept to breed on with is literally worth her weight in gold potentially!! Many breeders will keep a less than perfectly marked bitch who is otherwise sound to breed on with, whereas a Dog puppy has to be totally right or you won't use him at stud this is why it is so much easier to buy a dog puppy over a bitch puppy!!

Sorry this is so long winded!!

As for the "symetrical head markings", personnally markings are the last thing I look for, if the dog is soundly built and moves well, has a happy and outgoing temperament THEN I look at markings, one of my favourite Tri-colour champion bitches here in the UK was Lorraine Hughes's stunning Champion Loranka's Melting Moments, her blaze was totally askew, if you were going on markings alone she would have been sold as a pet, yet her overall quality was such that she was shown very successfully indeed, she is behind many dogs these days!

Markings for me are a very personnal thing, I like my boys more heavily marked and my girls more broken up, I'm not fussy about the Blenheim Lozenge yet most of mine have one!!

I could go on forever truly I could, but this is just this particular person/breeder/exhibitor's PERSONNAL view is all!

ice-cavi
30th March 2008, 12:37 PM
Thanx for explaining all this cathryn :)

I have a tri girl myself and was a bit scared of showing her since she has almost NO blaze.However she is very well broken and moves very nicely.
I showed her and she came in 4 wich totally came as a huge surprise.The judge was Mrs Carolyne Akroyd-Gibson of Toraylac .I believe she knows very well what she is doing when judging.
So my point is I would'nt be too concerned about the blaze not being 100% perfect,there are so many other things far more important :Coat,movements,body, bone,temperement ,size,bite, etc.
Good luck in finding Your tri :)
Mine is soooo far from being perfect but as a breeder once told me: you don´t by a champion, you make it yourself.Your goal should be to get the best "ingridients" to start with and then you should try and improve that yourself.
http://s3.frontur.com/img/57124/20080116162922_9.jpg
http://s3.frontur.com/img/57124/20080104201440_7.jpg

Nancy
30th March 2008, 12:38 PM
If you're still thinking of getting her, please don't gloss over the testing of parents aspect. Almost every puppy from good and bad breeders can be linked to Champion lineage along the way. If your breeder doesn't show, then how would they recognize show potential? Please have them take more pictures, if they are selling her for more than a pet puppy, then you have the right to ask for them to do a little more for you.

Cathryn
30th March 2008, 12:41 PM
Thanx for explaining all this cathryn :)

I have a tri girl myself and was a bit scared of showing her since she has almost NO blaze.However she is very well broken and moves very nicely.
I showed her and she came in 4 wich totally came as a huge surprise.The judge was Mrs Carolyne Akroyd-Gibson of Toraylac .I believe she knows very well what she is doing when judging.
So my point is I would'nt be too concerned about the blaze not being 100% perfect,there are so many other things far more important :Coat,movements,body, bone,temperement ,size,bite, etc.
Good luck in finding Your tri :)

The judge is a VERY good friend of mine and started me off with my first really good dog many years back, I agree 100% that she knows her stuff as she has taught me much of what I know too!! icon_whistling

Cathryn
30th March 2008, 12:43 PM
If you're still thinking of getting her, please don't gloss over the testing of parents aspect. Almost every puppy from good and bad breeders can be linked to Champion lineage along the way. If your breeder doesn't show, then how would they recognize show potential? Please have them take more pictures, if they are selling her for more than a pet puppy, then you have the right to ask for them to do a little more for you.

Very good point Nancy!! If you are paying a lot for her then they should be prepared to go every single little thing be it good or bad with you no matter how many questions you ask of them!

ruby2
30th March 2008, 01:05 PM
ice cavi dog looks lovely id like to compliment her on her lovely photo's.

Cathryn
30th March 2008, 01:15 PM
Yes I agree! A young lady with a lot of potential there!! :luv: :hug:

*Pauline*
30th March 2008, 01:25 PM
no one was willing to sell me a female with breeding rights.

Has this breeder offered you breeding rights? No good breeder would do this. Alarm bells ringing here.

ice-cavi
30th March 2008, 01:44 PM
Yes I agree! A young lady with a lot of potential there!! :luv: :hug:
Thank you.She has a very nice pedigree but she was bought meerely because I wanted a friend for my older one (and myself).:)

Cavalli CKCS
30th March 2008, 02:28 PM
Has this breeder offered you breeding rights? No good breeder would do this. Alarm bells ringing here.

Some do, I mean, they have to.....how else would people continue a line?
It's not very fair to say no good breeder will do this, I dont really know do you mean show breeder or pet breeder?

Evan


Does her breeder/s show?

Cathryn
30th March 2008, 02:38 PM
Some do, I mean, they have to.....how else would people continue a line?
It's not very fair to say no good breeder will do this, I dont really know do you mean show breeder or pet breeder?

Evan


Does her breeder/s show?

Evan, I believe this member is based in the U.S, I believe the Sheeba line is from there?? (Quickly Google's "Sheeba", Yes they are in the U.S) The American way of doing things is very different indeed to the UK way!! As I am sure you already know??

tinkertime
30th March 2008, 03:54 PM
Almost all the breeders I've been in contact with here (in the US) would only offer us a puppy with a spay/neuter contract. This breeder has champion males but doesn't show herself because she "doesn't like the atmosphere/politics" of showing. She loves the idea of us showing.

I never realized that female tris were so difficult to come by! It doesn't seem to be as much of a problem here-at least in the Northwest.

Nancy
30th March 2008, 04:13 PM
I don't understand, how does she have Champion males then? She bought them as Champions? If you'd like to PM me with the name of the breeder, I may recognize them.

Cavalli CKCS
30th March 2008, 04:25 PM
Evan, I believe this member is based in the U.S, I believe the Sheeba line is from there?? (Quickly Google's "Sheeba", Yes they are in the U.S) The American way of doing things is very different indeed to the UK way!! As I am sure you already know??

Yes Sheeba is an American kennel. I realised after they do!

Evan

Karlin
30th March 2008, 04:49 PM
Ok, the reason why all the breeders you contacted wouldn't allow you a dog with breeding rights is because... they are responsible, reputable breeders. I would be shocked if anyone were selling puppies on open registration without some connection professionally to the buyer -- either they are being mentored by the breeder who also shows, or by another breeder who shows.

I would NEVER get a puppy from someone who doesn't even show -- and is also promoting her puppies as potential show quality. This is classic, classic scam breeder talk.

Almost every single cavalier no matter the background goes back to champion lines. This too is the classic line of a backyard breeder or a mass breeder for the pet market.

Please don;t give money to this type of person, or if you are determined, at least get someone within the regional club to give an opinion on the breeder and the puppy. Otherwise you are simply throwing money away.

The way to get involved in showing in any breed is to first get involved with the local clubs, go to shows, get to know breeders, find a mentor, and build up the level of trust any reputable responsible breeder would want to have with a buyer before selling a puppy on open registration. :thmbsup:

One thing I really do not understand about UK and Irish breeders :mad: -- and it annoys me so damn much I don't care if I offend those of you on the board on this point because I am tired of talking about the importance of responsible breeding and watching breeders here sell puppies that you KNOW are at risk of being bred: WHY do you sell puppies on open registration? And if you also don't sell on spay neuter contracts, how do you know your puppies are not being bred to the crappy dog down the street? And if you feel others should have the right to breed for a puppy market, then don't you feel you have a significant role in the serious breed health problems in the breed that pet owners ands breed rescue people like ME have to pay to fix? And have to sort, on my personal time, the poorly bred, MVD-riddled rescue dogs with health problems that lack of controlled registration and spay/neuter contracts produces? How many dogs with serious MVD that are age 3 or 5 or 7 have you ever personally tried to place into rescue homes, instead of the cute fluffy puppies that are easy to home? I am so sick and tired of having every single Irish cavalier I take to the vets that is over 5 (and I have now had two three year old cavaliers too!) show a heart murmur, often over grade 3 Sam, nowin foster, is age 5 and has a grade 5 murmur. Obie was grade 5. Tandy, grade 3-4 and she was only 3. Sam with Eileen, grade 5-6, age 6. Another Sam that went to Mary, grade 5, age 5. Two dogs I homed last month, grade 3, age 4 and 5. I am convinced the Irish lines are the absolute worst with heart murmurs in any geographic area, because so many of my older rescues have murmurs and I have found it nearly impossible to find club breeders who bother with the heart protocol and the UK isn't much better -- despite Simon Swift's protestations for a DECADE, the club still feels vet heart checks are fine. I know of senior club members recommending puppies from parents not hear tested, breeding underaged dogs (they are supposed to be at least TWO) because 'they know the lines'. :sl*p:

What is the point of people like me working hard to encourage people to only buy from responsible health focused breeders when the same Irish and UK breeders go right on selling intact, open reg puppies that anyone can go breed -- and 99.999% of those pet owners breeding to earn a bit of money off their dog are breeding blindly, no health testing, and further spread MVD -- and now, SM -- in this breed. Much less dry eye/curly coat, bad patellas, hip problems and all the rest that comes up in the rescues I try to sort.

Don't you want to place more control over what happens to the breed as a whole, even if you are willing to risk your dogs being bred by just anyone? Anyone in rescue, any pet owner can confirm that breeders must be crazy of they think their open registration, intact dogs don't get bred by pet owners.

Having had a rash of MVD dogs lately, and having more to sort this coming week while I also try to do a full time job, I'd like some answers from the people who as far as I can see, help create the problem in the first place.

tinkertime
30th March 2008, 05:48 PM
Hi Karlin-

I just read your sticky about unethical breeders...and my breeder matches in many of the circumstances. To her credit, the parents are heart and eye certified, but not hips and patellas. She told me that isn't a problem in this breed, but I keep reading about it.

I can understand your anger and resentment, but just so you know, my true motivation is just to get a quality Cavalier for my girls to show at the 4-H and Jr. Showmanship level. I have very active girls and they are excited about agility and conformation events. I think for Jr. Showmanship it's more about the handler shows the dog than the actual dog.

I can tell that Cavaliers mean everything to you and I'm amazed by your dedication to the breed. I wouldn't want to be someone that contributes to the problem.

Thanks for all the great advice!
-Theresa

Cathy T
30th March 2008, 05:53 PM
You have a great attitude Theresa and I'm so pleased you are reacting positively to the input you are receiving.



To her credit, the parents are heart and eye certified, but not hips and patellas. She told me that isn't a problem in this breed, but I keep reading about it.



I'm sure you do keep reading about it. If you put "patella" in the search function you will come up with so many of us who have had patella issues. So the statement that it's not a problem in this breed is indeed not true.

There are just too many red flags going up about this whole situation. I think it's wonderful your girls are interested in agility and junior showmanship and truly hope you are able to achieve these goals for them. Sounds like you would all enjoy it.

*Pauline*
30th March 2008, 05:53 PM
Some do, I mean, they have to.....how else would people continue a line?
It's not very fair to say no good breeder will do this, I dont really know do you mean show breeder or pet breeder?

Evan


Does her breeder/s show?

When the person buying has no experience of breeding they should sell without breeding rights. I know sometimes experienced breeders buy puppies or dogs from other breeders, that that's different.

Are you assuming it's less important to worry about what you breed a dog to if it's puppies are to be sold as pets?

I'm sure many back yard breeders can boast champions in their dogs pedigree but it doesn't mean they haven't been badly bred. For example if I bred Dylan to a puppy farm Cavalier, the puppies would have loads of champions in their line but it wouldn't make it a good quality puppy.

I stand by my comment.

Cavalli CKCS
30th March 2008, 06:31 PM
When the person buying has no experience of breeding they should sell without breeding rights. I know sometimes experienced breeders buy puppies or dogs from other breeders, that that's different.

Are you assuming it's less important to worry about what you breed a dog to if it's puppies are to be sold as pets?

I'm sure many back yard breeders can boast champions in their dogs pedigree but it doesn't mean they haven't been badly bred. For example if I bred Dylan to a puppy farm Cavalier, the puppies would have loads of champions in their line but it wouldn't make it a good quality puppy.

I stand by my comment.

I was meaning that say I went to a friend that was a top breeder and she gave me a puppy bitch to breed from, does it make her unethical because she gave someone breeding rights?

I no it doesen't ....I was just making the point that just because someone gives breeding rights or no endorsements on a puppy, it does not make them a bad breeder....as was said earlier....

...Tri-Colours are hard to get well broken, most people breed their own, there is the most wonderful bitch in UK now being shown, Ch Montcolly Liccy, take a look at her and you will know what I mean by well broken.

Evan

*Pauline*
30th March 2008, 06:39 PM
You've missed the point. I think you should read Karlin's reply, she explains it perfectly. I'm not going to argue with you :lol:

sins
30th March 2008, 07:14 PM
What is the point of people like me working hard to encourage people to only buy from responsible health focused breeders when the same Irish and UK breeders go right on selling intact, open reg puppies that anyone can go breed -- and 99.999% of those pet owners breeding to earn a bit of money off their dog are breeding blindly, no health testing, and further spread MVD -- and now, SM

To put it bluntly,to some breeders their dogs are an immortal line,whose reputation should be protected and the integrity of their lines preserved.
Alas, to others.. they are simply livestock, farmed for profit!
Somewhere in between, are the breeders who take a chance on selling a dog as a family pet or to a novice exhibitor, they basically make a judgement call, accept a cheque and hope for the best,knowing full well that their chances of enforcing a spay/neuter contract on Irish soil are next to nothing.
Sins

Cathryn
30th March 2008, 07:37 PM
OK, as you know I too breed the occassional litter, I also routinely health test ALL my breeding stock and expect the same of any kennels who's stud dog I use, furthermore I have recently implemented MRI scanning and this will become standard procedure from here on in.

When I sell bitch puppies they ALL have endorsed pedigree's "Progeny Ineligible for Registration", this means that should their new owners breed from them and try to register the litter with the Kennel club it will not be allowed. I am the ONLY person who can lift the endorsement to allow the litter to be registered.
Now should a new owner decide to go against my recommendation of spaying their bitch I ask them to come back to me so I can give my opinion on whether or not their girl is suitable for breeding, I also advise them to get all health checks done by the relevant cardiologist/opthalmologist before I will even consider lifting the restriction. Many other breeders do this too. I have heard of other breeders who with-hold papers on dogs until they have written proof from the new owners vets that the puppy has indeed been altered.

The way I see it is that I made the decision to bring those puppies into the world, I took every step I possibly could to ensure their parents were as healthy as could be and to give them the best start in life. Therefore I have a moral obligation to every dog I breed, be they pet or show, I am a "Guardian" if you like, for this beautiful breed of ours and I want every puppy to be the healthiest, strongest and best puppy that it can be. Yes I am choosy who I sell my precious babies to, although there really are NO guarantee's unless you already know the new owner. I have only ever let 2 girls go on open registration for breeding.

I also make sure that ALL retired breeding bitches are spayed whether they spend their retirement here with me or with a new family.
Breeding a litter and homing them is a MASSIVE responsibility and there is no way of knowing 100% for sure what will happen to those pups when they do go to their "forever" home, I am always willing to have dogs back at any stage in their life and for whatever reason. But someone who is asking for a bitch for breeding whom I do not know or who has not been highly recommended by a close friend will not stand a chance! I take great pride in my dogs and have worked hard to get the dogs I have today. Hope this makes sense??

Cavvygirl
30th March 2008, 07:38 PM
Cathryn,

Thank-you for explaining that for me its very interesting:)

Both our boys were sold without neuter agreements but we know the breeder and she trusts us. Being a rescue volunteer in the past it would never cross my mind to breed from them!

Alot of breeders we came across in our original search were not keen on us neutering a dog because of the coat issue. Our breeder normally only sells her puppies to other breeders she knows or people who have dogs from her already.:)

niki
30th March 2008, 07:46 PM
Had to have a look at Montcolly Liccy - she's beautiful -thanks for the example.

As a mum to two tri CKCS, one male one female both pet only and not KC registered I've been watching this thread with interest.
I think its easy to be persuaded that your dog/puppy might one day be a show winner and I admit to being a little preoccupied with this when i first became a dog owner even though i knew without KC registration this would never be possible, I felt it would be nice to have a 'show quality dog' at my side.
Now I am back on planet earth I am just enjoying my two for what they are - two very pretty/handsome wonderfully loving and attentive dogs. BTW I had previously considered having a go at breeding but have since been educated thanks to researching places like this that it is not a path for me - it astounds me that people come up to me and ask me when i'm going to breed my two and look disappointed and even disgruntled when i tell them Suki is spayed. Some say i'm mad and to 'think of the money' - i find this horrendous - i prefer to think of my dogs health and stability, my lack of experience would have made me an appalling breeder. When I bought my two there was no agreement that I couldn't breed and I think this is probably the case for alot of potential owners - some of them will undoubtedly go on to breed
I really admire the commitment/time and money it takes to be a good breeder - keep up the good work :paw:

Alison_Leighfield
30th March 2008, 07:54 PM
Cathryn,

That all makes perfect sense to me. Breeding and doing it right must be a massive responsibility, all those little heart beats to care about.
Fabulous to know that you are MRI scanning and health testing, giving those little ones the very best start that you can on the road to a healthy life :) may their new owners really appreciate your hard work.

Alison.

Cavalli CKCS
30th March 2008, 08:54 PM
You've missed the point. I think you should read Karlin's reply, she explains it perfectly. I'm not going to argue with you :lol:


I have havent I? lol

Evan

sins
30th March 2008, 09:30 PM
Look at it this way Evan !
You love Ronnoc dogs, so do I.
I got mine not from the Ronnoc kennel or a breeder with a kennel name.
The Ronnoc bitch who produced my pup had been bought and sold no less than three times.I have no idea who the previous matings were with.
When I bought my pup, there were no health certificates, the breeder simply traded on the reputation of the ronnoc line.The pup was registered,microchipped,I was given a puppy pack consisting of dog food,written instructions on feeding and dates of her vaccinations.My kids were given dire warnings about leaving pups unattended on the beds and couches etc...
A month later the breeder sent me her dam's 5 generation pedigree along with the sires.Turns out the sire had been shown and had won and was the son of Sancem Cirrus. So basically I have a ronnoc doggie on both sides! Although my pupster does not bear the kennel name.
So I took a chance that I'll have a healthy pup, because the dam is seven and alive, the sire is almost eleven and if grandad Sancem is still alive he's 16.(Last I heard of him he was alive at 14?????)
The breeder took a chance that I was nice Mrs Murphy who wanted a cavalier cos it wouldn't eat her kids and was possibly interested in showing.For all she knew I could have had a shed full of tangled and matted cavalier/Brittany cross spaniels.
She did keep in touch however to check Daisy's progress and asked about her teeth and her size and dimensions etc..
Sooo, if I was a greedy wagon I could breed her and flog the pups for €500 a go.However,knowing what I know now about SM and MVD and having a third level qualification in genetics and immunochemistry, I wouldn't dream of creating a pup who would suffer from either.
If she doesn't MRI scan clear and have a clear heart etc... she'll be neutered.The only reason I would breed her is if she had something positive to contribute to the cavalier lines, namely SM free status.
Having said all that she may just turn out to be spud ugly and all her distinguished ancestors would be rolling in their mudholes over the rainbow bridge at the very thought of her reproducing.:D
Sins

Cavalli CKCS
30th March 2008, 09:37 PM
So, how old is your little darling then?

She sounds lovely.

Paddy and Gerard had a great reputation for their pups I'm told, I dont know from personal experience as I only know Paddy with a few years.


Evan

Cavalli CKCS
30th March 2008, 09:39 PM
Just noticed, your only in Cork!

Do you go to any shows?

Evan

Karlin
30th March 2008, 09:49 PM
I am always asked why I don't breed my dogs. It is ASSUMED you will breed your pets in Ireland! Maybe that is why we have the HIGHEST death rate per capita for dogs in pounds in the EU -- and that includes cavaliers as the majority of pounds won't even let rescue groups in so I never get to hear of them and they never have a chance.


their chances of enforcing a spay/neuter contract on Irish soil are next to nothing.

There are ways of enforcing this. One is to confirm the dog has been neutered with the owner's vet and have this written into the homing contract. Another is to ONLY home puppies on closed registration which removes a huge amount of the motivation to breed -- the extra money you get by being able to list your dogs as having IKC registration. But almost no Irish breeders do this for any breed- - and the IKC amazingly charges EXTRA to limit registration, which should be the standard with extra charged NOT to limit registration. :sl*p:

In my experience most rescues are more careful about where they home their dogs to than most breeders (I am not saying ALL but I am very confidently saying MOST). For example: the majority of Irish rescues physically go out and homecheck every single home before they place a dog. I drive to the home, and bring my homing pack which contains information on the breed, health issues with specific documents on MVD, large platelets and syringomyelia (the latter two to go to the vet), feeding, the fact that this is an INDOOR breed and I make sure that dog is going to live inside, not out in the back, obesity, getting insurance, and a recommended vet if they are in Dublin. I spend at least an hour answering questions, talking about the breed, and going thru the homing pack. I walk the back garden to make sure it is secure.

I arrange neuters and spays at 30% off and if I haven't been able to do this before handing over the dog I jointly make the arrangement with the owner with one of the vets I work with. I make clear they can call me any time for advice and help and that in taking one of my rescues they understand that in future if for any reason they need to rehome the dog, their homing application stipulates that it must come back to me. I chip the dog so that if they never bother to change the details it will at least be returned to me.

I don't think any of this is particularly deserving of praise -- as I said it is the NORM for most rescues. To breeders who say that is too time consuming and difficult -- I am sure I home far more rescue dogs in a year than most Irish breeders would home puppies (somewhere between 45-60 in the last 12 months) and I work full time (more than full time actually). But I consider this to be the minimum of responsibility to each dog I home. I will not ever home a dog and risk it ending up being used to produce puppies that will end up like so many of the rescues I have in -- with early murmurs, or sold into a puppy farm, or bred from a few times. SM is a massive problem waiting to happen and the breed is seriously under threat from this too.

The thing about testing is -- you can test your own breeding dogs all you want and match the best pedigree to yours regarding health but sadly those who decide to breed your puppies when they become adults probably will do none of that and yet more generations of poorly bred MVD riddled dogs go out to be further bred from and on and on. That's how we got to where we are today. The bottom line is if puppies are homed on open registration to everyone and anyone -- and there's no attempt to ensure they are spayed and neutered -- then a good portion of people are out there breeding your puppies. They WILL be breeding them, they WILL be breeding them to any old dog. I see it all the time. The US is FULL of backyard breeders with websites claiming Irish and UK champion ancestry because of breeders homing dogs on trust to such people. For example: just LOOK at the top UK lines this convicted felon uses to sell puppies.

http://board.cavaliertalk.com/showthread.php?t=13258

All those top line breeders happily sold their dogs to this woman -- who remains on warrant in the UK! So she moved them all to the US and set up a nice little operation and apparently still has over 100 dogs in her home.

US BYBs are full of top Irish lineages from breeders who sold litters and individual puppies to brokers or just any old home in the US.

Then I try to convince people to support reputable breeders.

This breed is so under pressure from health issues that I cannot understand how any responsible breeder who seriously cares about the breed rather then just the money or their show hobby can sell on open registration and make no attempt to control whether their dogs are bred from or not. :confused:

Cavalli CKCS
30th March 2008, 10:32 PM
But almost no Irish breeders do this for any breed- - and the IKC amazingly charges EXTRA to limit registration, which should be the standard with extra charged NOT to limit registration. :sl*p:

:confused:

I fully agree. I really can see no sence in it at all.

sins
30th March 2008, 10:51 PM
Evan,
I'll pm you. Perhaps I'll catch up with you if you're in Fermoy or South tipp in april or May.I'd love to see your dogs and it'd be wonderful to chat with such an enthusiastic person when it comes to cavaliers.
I had little concept what breeding MVD cavaliers could produce until I fostered an ex breeding bitch for Karlin.I was expecting to see something pretty and petite like my own one.Assurance was given about the dog's health and heart status before it was surrendered.
In fact nothing could have prepared me for the miserable matted creature that lay crying and panting on my kitchen floor.I was terrified that she would die on the floor in front of the kids!
I have no idea what a double heart murmur is but that's what the vet said she had when I took her for a check up.She had other health issues too and this bitch apparently provided the foundation of successful american bloodlines:eek:
Seeing it in all it's disgrace was a hard but valuable lesson to learn. Happily the dog has a wonderful life now and I see her regularly.
Sorry for hijacking your thread about the tricolor face markings!!!
Sins

Nicki
30th March 2008, 10:54 PM
A double heart murmur would be where both valves are affected - normally with Cavaliers the Mitral valve is affected, but sometimes the Tricuspid valve can be too.

I have a link somewhere for a better explanation but can't find it at the moment.

Cavalli CKCS
30th March 2008, 10:57 PM
Evan,
I'll pm you. Perhaps I'll catch up with you if you're in Fermoy or South tipp in april or May.I'd love to see your dogs and it'd be wonderful to chat with such an enthusiastic person when it comes to cavaliers.
I had little concept what breeding MVD cavaliers could produce until I fostered an ex breeding bitch for Karlin.I was expecting to see something pretty and petite like my own one.Assurance was given about the dog's health and heart status before it was surrendered.
In fact nothing could have prepared me for the miserable matted creature that lay crying and panting on my kitchen floor.I was terrified that she would die on the floor in front of the kids!
I have no idea what a double heart murmur is but that's what the vet said she had when I took her for a check up.She had other health issues too and this bitch apparently provided the foundation of successful american bloodlines:eek:
Seeing it in all it's disgrace was a hard but valuable lesson to learn. Happily the dog has a wonderful life now and I see her regularly.
Sorry for hijacking your thread about the tricolor face markings!!!
Sins

PM'ed you ....I wont be showing anything for quite a while though.

Speak To Ya Soon

Evan

Cathy T
30th March 2008, 11:51 PM
Alot of breeders we came across in our original search were not keen on us neutering a dog because of the coat issue


This just really ticks me off....and I'm hearing more and more breeders recommending that owners not spay/neuter because of the potential change in coat. I find this extremely disturbing. When I purchased both of my dogs I signed a spay/neuter contract. I felt obligated to stand up to my end of the bargain.

I can't believe the IKC charges more to limit registration....you're so right, it should be the other way around.

Claire L
31st March 2008, 01:07 PM
Last year hubby and I were walking our girlies in St Anne's Park. We happened upon two teenage girls who had a little Blenheim Cavalier (she looked about eight weeks old :eek: and was off lead) trotting along behind them. I went over to say hello and I chatted to them for a while. I was very careful about what I said to them but basically, I let them know that the pup shouldn't be out before all vaccinations had been given, it shouldn't be running along AT ALL behind them etc. To my absolute horror they told me that if I liked the pup they had another ten at home.

What they were actually doing was advertising :eek:

I meet a LOT of people with Cavaliers and None of them have ever heard of SM and when I explain it to them, they just shrug their shoulders :(

ice-cavi
31st March 2008, 01:29 PM
Last year hubby and I were walking our girlies in St Anne's Park. We happened upon two teenage girls who had a little Blenheim Cavalier (she looked about eight weeks old :eek: and was off lead) trotting along behind them. I went over to say hello and I chatted to them for a while. I was very careful about what I said to them but basically, I let them know that the pup shouldn't be out before all vaccinations had been given, it shouldn't be running along AT ALL behind them etc. To my absolute horror they told me that if I liked the pup they had another ten at home.

What they were actually doing was advertising :eek:

I meet a LOT of people with Cavaliers and None of them have ever heard of SM and when I explain it to them, they just shrug their shoulders :(


:eek:
All of sudden I fell so lucky to be in Iceland.!!! Upp here the FCI cavaliers are few (about 600 hundred i think),the breeders are few and there are very strickt rules in terms of breeding:
Bitch must be at least 2.5 years old, have her heart checked&eyes and come out clear of course.Also the dogs parents need to be clear at age 4 before breeding their offspring.
she must have been shown and had exellent or very good in order to get blessing from the cavalierclub. Since it is such a small community it is not likely to "pay off" to "breed" without the blessings of the cavalierclub.Everybody knows everybody and its would be very hard if not impossible to sell puppies which are not recomended from the club.
Also we are very lucky that the biggest breeders upp here are very passionate about breeding and are regularely importing new dogs from healthy bloodlines.
Would like to add that the first breeding stock came upp here 1991 0r 1992 so cavaliers are still very young upp here;)

Daisy's Mom
31st March 2008, 02:38 PM
Your post made me remember an unusual meeting I had with a couple that had 2 Cavaliers in Williamsburg Village, VA. We were there with our kids (without Daisy) last summer and we were walking on the large lawn in front of the governer's mansion and we passed a couple with 2 tri-colors. Of course I stopped them and we talked Cavalier for about 15 minutes. She brought up SM to me and we talked about it for a while. She had just had one of her boys to New York to have surgery for it and was on her way back home! Her other dog was MRI'd and came up clean. She was talking about breeding him. She said she bought her affected dog from a vet and when she went back to him to talk to him about her dog's condition, he said he had no idea what she was talking about. She found a good surgeon on her own in New York and had gone all the way up there from I think it was Alabama to have the surgery.

Very nice lady! I asked her if she posted on here and she said 'sometimes," but I didn't ask her posting name. I was just so shocked to talk to a Cavalier owner who had a single clue about the health issues with our dogs, and I'm sure she was, too -- it's the first time ever outside of a Cavalier show! If you recall having such a conversation, let me know! (You can PM me if you like.)

Then there's the other end of the spectrum. The lady who cleans our house recently bought a Chihuahua at a pet store. Since the deed was done, I didn't get on my soapbox, but I sure wanted to.

And sending your kids out walking a young puppy as advertising? That's as bad as parking outside a store with a sign up saying Cavaliers for Sale! And if they had 10 more at home, they were definitely "in the business." You should see the Target parking lot in our town every Saturday morning. There will be 10-12 cars parked at the edge of the lot with puppies of all varieties in playpens or x-pens either selling them (usually) or giving them away. I always crane my neck to look to see if they have any Cavaliers, but I've not seen any -- yet. Since I rarely go to that shopping area on a Saturday, though, I wouldn't be surprised if there have been several there. I'm sure they thoroughly question their buyers about how the dogs will be treated, give restricted papers, etc.! Not.