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Doesn't show-byb?

I am going to go with a breeder that does show and with a pup that has champions in it's immediate family to be safe, but I had a question. If they are akc registered and do the heart/eye screenings by specialists and have good references (I found one with a reference from a prominent vet who bought a puppy) but do not show are they still considered a byb? I know that showing is important to insure that they are improving the cavalier breed by breeding to standard so these breeders are obviously inferior...but are they bybs?
 
It depends on your definition - And it can depend on the breeder and WHY they don't show. I've been accused of being a BYB with my IGs - Why? Because I'm more active in UKC showing, and competition sports, such as agility, lure coursing, and obedience, and haven't shown much in AKC, so my dogs don't have their AKC conformation titles - and because of that some through me in that category - Do I think that's fair? Of course not!

One big thing I do look at in deciding of someone is a reputable breeder or a BYB, even if they do health testing, is if they seem really interested in the breed and show that active interest in them in some way - weither it be competing in other sports with their dogs, doing rescue - I want to see some sort of involvement with the breed and see that they do get their dogs out there and aren't just simply sitting at home breeding them to make money. In my completly honest opinion - a reputable breeder seldom, if ever, makes any money off their dogs - And money they make off the puppies generally goes back into entry fees for shows (be it agility shows, obedience shows, conformation shows, what ever!), health care for their dogs (including appropriate health testing), and the day-to-day care of their dogs!! Any breeder that is making a living by breeding their dogs, or is making significant monitary gain off of them, I'm leary of!!! Generally those are the breeders who aren't showing simply because it would cut into the profits!!!
 
If someone breeds, but doesn't have their dogs in any kind of public arena for scrutiny, I'd be very dubious. It doesn't have to be conformation showing, but I'd want then to be involved with a club and active on some aspect of the dog worls, not breeding litters for sale. That means not just having AKC registration but INVOLVED with with AKCSC or CKCSC (NOT just AKC reg, that means almost zilch). The only exception would be breeders of long standing whose dogs are central to the CURRENT show scene -- having a dog a few generations back that has a champion in the pedigree is a 'so what' situation; almost all cavaliers have champon dogs a few generations back.

I'd be kind of dubious of anyone who isn't showing, isn't involved with clubs, and has puppies available right away. If you are wondering, PM Nancy as she is good at recognising some of the more questionable breeders.

The thing about BYBs and questionable breeders generally is: you want to ask WHY they aren't involved with shows or club activities or dog sports.

I wouldn't necessarily trust the recommendation of a prominent vet who has taken a puppy -- vets often don't know all that much about breeders and breeding -- especially if the breeder herself advertises this on a website as a selling point, as this is the typical thing a questionable breeder will post to make them look more legit. Good health focused breeders simply do not need to make these kinds of statements on a website.

Bottom line is -- if they simply have AKC reg and are not active members of either ACKCSC or CKCSC then I'd be very wary. I'd be very wary of any breeders that are only found by website too rather than from recommendation from one of the two US clubs (ACKCSC or CKCSC) -- my experience is that very few good breeders have websites, and most of those who do have pretty basic sites (with a few exceptions!). The breeders with elaborate websites with testimonies and recommendations tend to be the most questionable, again with very few exceptions -- they are trying to persuade people; whereas good reputable breeders don;t have to prove things by appearance as they can prove their qualities by substance and public reputation. In short: good breeders have waiting lists and rarely have puppies available right away. They are also usually too busy to show pics of all their latest puppies. Their sites tend to be fairly simple. If a site is set up to make it very easy for you to view puppies and buy one, and is mainly focused on selling the breeder and her puppies, I'd be extremely suspicious. I'd be very suspicious of anyone willing to ship puppies without getting to know you, too.

Expect to jump through a few hoops with a good breeder -- personal interview, discussion back and forth, etc. :)
 
I know uk breeders who are very particular about the very few dogs they breed, most to be kept by themselves, who choose not to show because they don't like the attitudes and goings on of the show world.
 
Don't have a lot of time, so I'll keep it short. I have always been a strong believer that if a person is breeding, they should be showing. At the very least they should be active in one or both of the Cavalier clubs. But as to your question if they are a BYB; hard to say. If they really are doing the necessary testing and following the recommendations (and can prove it), then they may OK. But then I don't know a single breeder that I would consider reputable that doesn't show; although that may be my belief about showing and breeding showing through. But then I also don't know a single breeder that is active in one of the Cavalier clubs that doesn't show. So tough question to give a definative answer on.
 
I know uk breeders who are very particular about the very few dogs they breed, most to be kept by themselves, who choose not to show because they don't like the attitudes and goings on of the show world.

Joyce birchill of the famous zepherine charlies did not show.

if I won the lottery i'd love to breed my own line of healthy charlies of the type I like, to keep for my own enjoyment.

But I dont like showing. I certainly would not want to show every weekend & get up at 2am to go to the other end of the country like some do. I'd much rather take my dogs for a walk & enjoy them that way.
 
My parents breed springs once in a great while, never for the money since I'm pretty sure the lose money. They do it for the love of the breed. The also do health checks on both dogs and interview new homes like crazy. I think you have to be careful and do the research like you are. Being informed is one of the best things you can be.
 
The problem is that most people who breed yet are not involved in either showing or other dog sports, would say they breed because 'they love the breed'. But if you are not involved with any clubs, no one actually scrutinises the dogs of your breeding in some public format be it agility, obedience, or conformation, if you are not involved in any venue that gets you talking to other breeders about current issues in the breed, the latest research, the proper health clearances... how do you stay informed enough to make judgments about whether your dogs are of breeding quality and whether the dogs you use to breed with are of breeding quality? Who is doing the health tests -- the local vet? Where are you getting the information from on the current state of the breed and current issues?

Why breed a very few dogs mostly for yourself rather than support a reputable breeder who is staying on top of all these issues, doing the current and proper health tests, and whose dogs are held to a standard by someone besides a doting owner? Isn't this type of small scale personal breeding more about the person doing the breeding and very little about improving the standard of the breed? (otherwise, surely you'd want your dogs to be scrutinised and also used in other breeding programmes to preserve those great qualities you've worked many years to enhance and preserve?).

Unfortunately breeding purebreds has far wider implications for entire breeds than simply producing puppies for oneself, one's friends and family, or maybe a few to sell as well. The gene pool is already artificially small and therefore dogs already have the potential, in any mating, of exacerbating serious genetic conditions within the breed. Some of those dogs or their offspring will be used for breeding. Those genes will enter the breed's genetic heritage and gradually spread outwards. MVD is a good example of a condition that is so widespread because so few properly worked or continue to work to limit its effects. Too many -- show and casual breeders -- go to vets, not cardiologists; breed before the dogs are old enough to be evaluated for the MVD protocol, and think their experience offsets risk (it doesn't, without the knowledge of the health status of each individual dog and its genetic inheritence).

I've yet to meet a single breeder who isn't involved with clubs and dog sports or conformation who appropriately tests, and don't know a single one who has bothered to attend any of the UK or US seminars so far on SM or who MRIs breeding stock.

No one is arguing that simply going to any show breeder is appropriate solely on the basis that they show. But there are many reasons to be wary of the *vast majority* of breeders who are not club-involved and active in their breed on some level besides simply liking the breed. Not least because the breeders who do put health and conformation foremost are very unlikely to allow any of the dogs of their own breeding be used in the breeding programme of such people, meaning they are working with other casual breeders only.

Those who don;t show and breed high quality dogs are very rare. The Connor brothers of the Irish Ronnoc line also did not show. But -- importantly -- their dogs were shown, and some have been very important to the history of the breed. Other show breeders scrutinised their dogs and found some of them of the right quality to in turn be shown and bred. If someone breeds and doesn't show but has their dogs held to public standards in this way, then I think it matters less whether they personally show. But such cases are very, very rare and increasingly so. And in the US, as far as I know such cases are nonexistent.
 
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