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View Full Version : appointment made for spay but is there an injection instead?



ruby2
7th May 2008, 01:18 AM
I have an appointment made for ruby to be spayed. My husband hates the thought he says of mutilating her..:eek:..If that is the right spelling/ sorry,. He says it is like a woman getting a hysterectomy. He thinks it is like doing that to my daughter...That ruby is so young and she is only a little girl with no way of making her own decision....:(

He has been told by some bright spark !!!!:bang: That there is an injection of some sort that the vet could give ruby to stop her going into heat. To give it a week or so before she would be due to go into heat. This is all i needed...im bad enough thinking of putting her to the vet to get spayed. I know the pro's and con's from this site about how the early spay can reduce cancer and different illnesses. I obviously didnt want to have to keep ruby in for weeks on end either when she would be in heat.....Is there such a thing as this injection from the vet??? And have any of you had experience of it????:confused: Appointment for ruby for spay is next week!!!!!:(

Karlin
7th May 2008, 01:34 AM
It is far more stressful and UNNATURAL (!!) on the dog's system to keep giving injections twice a year. Those are massive doses of hormones that suspends the normal functioning of a dog's system-- it isn't at all preferable to spaying. It is emergency management, not a regular way of managing an intact female!

Your husband needs to understand that the NORMAL condition for a female dog is to be in the same state she will be in when spayed -- there reproduction system and hormones are inactive and neutral 85% of their lives. Dogs do not have the partial cycles in preparation for possible pregnancy like humans, they actually go through a stressful four weeks of heat that throws them into the full cycle of hormones *as if pregnant* (that is why you have to wait three months after heat to get a dog spayed; because their hormones are still in the mode of a pregnancy. It is not anything remotely like a period for a woman! And a dog is not remotely interested in sex or mating unless in heat (nor a male unless a female is in heat) It is SOLELY an intense reproductive drive and can drive the dogs crazy trying to get out and get access to a dog to mate at that time). You are a woman -- would you want to go through nine month cycles regardless of whether you got pregnant? :eek: That's what a dog goes through -- the whole cycle. It is why some are prone to going into false pregnancies, which also is very stressful for the female. I've had to spay three female rescues who kept going into false pregnancies.

Your vet needs to talk to your husband and explain your dog has a fatality risk with pregnancy, a 25% chance of mammary cancer if not spayed, and a higher than 45% chance of the potentially fatal infection pyometra (according to a survey of spay/neuter literature). Have him read the recent post about the cavalier that died on the operating table from pyometra. And maybe suggest he stay home and indoors with Ruby for her full four weeks of being in heat, when she cannot be taken outside and must be carefully watched?

If he really is upset about her hormones, go and have her tubes tied instead -- she won't get pregnant but will go through heats and you will still have to keep her in for 4-6 weeks every 6-8 months and prevent access from males, who will still try to mate with her.

It is never wise to transfer human emotions onto a dog's sex life, BTW. Using your husband's logic and applying it to actual humans, neither you nor your daughter should ever use anything to manage your own reproductive cycles and should allow yourselves to be pregnant regularly. A hysterectomy is not necessarily a big deal BTW and I know women delighted to have their cycles over and done with. Not to even get into the subject of menopause :lol:, which dogs don't experience -- they can still reproduce even when elderly... :yikes

Karlin
7th May 2008, 01:42 AM
Better to get a spay and not a tubal ligation I guess:


Estrogen May Generate Trouble.

A client asked me last week if, when we spayed her dog, we could just remove the uterus and leave the ovaries in. This seems more natural, like it may have benefits, but there are certainly drawbacks and risks. It's an unusual request so I called Dr. Memon, the reproductive specialist at the Washington State University Veterinary School to get the best advice. He said the risks are much greater than the possible benefits.

The ovaries would still produce estrogen. Spayed dogs are a little more likely to develop urinary incontinence in their golden years. They might leak a little urine while they're sleeping. Leaving the ovaries in may reduce this risk. That's about the only benefit.

She may not come into heat every six months, like a normal dog but estrogen would make her go into heat, produce the pheromones that attract male dogs, and even be receptive to breeding. She wouldn't get pregnant but the physical act of breeding may be risky and painful. When a dog is spayed, the cervix and a small "stump" of uterus are normally left in, and estrogen could have deleterious effects on them. Prolonged increased levels of estrogen can also suppress the bone marrow and result in a dangerously low red blood cell count.

A small piece of an ovary is sometimes inadvertently left behind when a dog or cat is spayed and the symptoms we usually see are similar to a mild heat cycle. It may also happen, though rare, that a dog or cat will be born with an extra ovary, or small bit of ovarian tissue. Either of these would be very unlikely to be spotted during a routine spay. Finally, other glandular tissue in the body that normally doesn't produce estrogen can sometimes, for some reason, produce estrogen or similar hormones that can cause dogs or cats to act like they're in heat.

There are two ways to find out if a dog or cat that has supposedly been spayed is still making estrogen. One is a blood test. We have to draw a blood sample, then give an injection that would stimulate ovaries if they were there, and then draw one or two more blood samples a specific time later. The samples are sent to a specialty lab and results come back in a week or two. The other option is exploratory surgery. The surgery is more difficult and more expensive than a routine spay because it is much harder to find a tiny piece of an ovary or make sure it's not there.

Dr. Memon sent me a copy of a case report about a dog that had been spayed as a puppy, and then seven years later developed enlarged mammary glands and a vaginal discharge. The doctor could feel a large mass in her abdomen, and laboratory tests indicated she was producing more estrogen than a spayed dog should. On exploratory surgery they found a large tumor. Microscopic examination indicated it was a type of ovarian cancer called a granulosa cell tumor.

These are the most common type of ovarian cancer but, of course, are normally not found in spayed dogs. The cancer usually does not spread, or metastasize and surgical removal is usually successful and results in a complete cure. Except that all that estrogen causes a host of other problems that can greatly complicate matters. The dog in the case report recovered, but I would guess the bill for all the things that had to be done came to several thousand dollars.

A routine spay is a lot cheaper and complications are rare.

http://www.roen.com/060612.html

vikki
7th May 2008, 02:14 AM
your husband sounds just like mine when we were ready to spay our pup. he thought the very same things. what convinced us both was thinking of the ramifications of a dog getting at her, especially a big dog. that would be terrible, the trauma of that plus the unwanted puppies. I didn't think I could handle the stress of that worry and neither could he. now its done and I don't worry at all

Moviedust
7th May 2008, 02:15 AM
I have an appointment made for ruby to be spayed. My husband hates the thought he says of mutilating her..:eek:..If that is the right spelling/ sorry,. He says it is like a woman getting a hysterectomy. He thinks it is like doing that to my daughter...That ruby is so young and she is only a little girl with no way of making her own decision....:(



I've heard this argument before, oddly enough. I don't know how people make the comparison between dogs and girls. It is NOT the same as giving your daughter a hysterectomy. Firstly, your daughter will eventually mentally mature to make her own reproductive decisions. She can choose to have sex or not, to use birth control in any of its forms, and choose her own sex partners. Your dog is NEVER going to mature to the point of making responsible choices about its reproduction. You will ALWAYS have to care for your dog and make choices for your dog. You know that your dog will reproduce with any dog any time it goes into heat without regard for its own health. A dog's drive to mate is very difficult to deal with in many different levels; neutering a dog is the responsible decision for most dog owners.

Your husband will get over it. Your dog will be fine. Don't cancel the appointment.

PS--I doubt all the women on the board who have had hysterectomies would consider themselves mutilated. Men... ;)

AT
7th May 2008, 09:13 AM
I seem to remember our first cav had the injection once , it was very painful for her ( she had a bald patch on her neck that may have been from that injection )

Its not something I would consider using now

sins
7th May 2008, 11:01 AM
she is only a little girl with no way of making her own decision

If Ruby could make her own decision, come mid season she'd be off down the road with the nearest mutt she could find,doing what comes naturally to doggies!!:p
You really have to be very committed to keeping her in for the four weeks with no errors at all in vigilance.
Your hubby needs to consider what happens if she mixes DNa with the local golden retriever.A large dog can break a small dog's back or seriously injure her.
Is he prepared to lovingly raise a batch of mongrels?
Alas, dogs have no concept of morals and females rarely say no!
My friend had a female springer spaniel who was excellent gundog in field trials,when in heat they locked her in the garden shed while shopping.They came home to find the local rambling scruffball terrier deeply in love with their prize spaniel.He'd eaten through the door,cut the pads of his paws to pieces getting in at her and she'd been chewing from the inside out.She had the emergency injection from the vet but escaped a few days later and went under a truck on the Glanmire bypass.
Sins

Louise1823
7th May 2008, 11:18 AM
Your hubby sounds exactly like mine from 3 years ago, when we were arguing over to have Millie spayed. I was totally in favour, as we got her as a pet and never had any intentions of allowing her to have a litter. He had heard some story about how it was better for the female to have a litter of pups before being spayed. Something to do with them having a better temperment as a result of this. I put my foot down and got our vet to have a word in his ear also :D
I was so terrified something might accidentaly happen as I know what lengths dogs will go to when a female is in heat. My Mums daschunds had to stay away form the house for over a month during her one and only heat, and we couldnt take her outside at all. It was a total nightmare (for both us and for Millie too Im sure), so I booked her in as soon as it was over. By this time, Derek had changed his mind also ;)
She bounced back after a few days and the vet was so good that it hasn't left a hint of a scar on her tum.
Chloe is booked in for her spay this coming Friday, so :xfngr: it will go as smooth as Millie's.

pippa
7th May 2008, 12:04 PM
I know how worried you are about this and concerned about your little girl. I got my two boys neutered and I was worried sick but they were fine and Pippin had his testicle up in his abdomen so it was like a spay for him but he got through it no problem. I felt bad that they would never have offspring but as I had no intention of breeding from them it was the safer option. It's your choice but I would go ahead with the spay,she will be fine.

Karlin
7th May 2008, 12:11 PM
The other worry is always that the father is a larger breed as your own female can easily die in the process of trying to give birth as the puppies are too big. Vets and breeders always advise terminating (by spay) a litter where the father may have been a larger breed. This is a far more risky spay situation than a normal spay and is not pleasant to do either. A dog that has pyometra also has to be spayed at a risky point to save her life.

In general if you are not a fully fledged committed breeder, with a dog of such outstanding quality that it is valuable to conserve its genes within the breed, spay the female. :)

When people talk about what is 'natural' they tend to forget that nature is also very cruel. Pregnancy alone is one of the higher risk 'natural' activities any creature can go through. Mating especially for inexperienced dogs can also be risky with the dogs often turning on each other. I have seen badly bullied and injured bitches in heat come into the pound after having been pursued and repeatedly attacked by gangs of dogs. :(

It is typically so hard to see spay scars that generally a trained eye is need to spot them and even then it can be really hard. My Lily had already been spayed when she went back in for a 'spay' as a rescue and even the vets could not tell til she was on the table and they couldn't find her ovaries. It's hard to tell she even has a second scar now either! This is one of the real difficulties people in rescue have -- telling whether females have actually been spayed -- as scars are small and often disappear.

misty
7th May 2008, 12:31 PM
All I can say is I wish I'd recovered from MY hysterectomy as quickly as my Cav girlies recovered from their respective spays! :).

They were both awake if dozy, and eating and wagging as soon as they came home from the vets. It's just a matter of keeping them calm (ish) 'til the stitches are out i.e. no off-lead exercise til then.

I wouldn't risk the chance of a pyo, which can happen with unspayed bitches, as this can very quickly escalate to a life-threatening situation.

pippa
7th May 2008, 01:45 PM
Someone I know, recently had her girl (very small cavalier) mated with another cavalier who is owned by a very reputable breeder, a lovely dog. All done responsibily.

I always thought the bitch was very small and delicate looking but they wanted her to have one lot of puppies before spaying.

Well,it ended rather sadly, she got pregnant straight away,great excitment, there were six puppies to begin with. She absorbed two,two died at birth, one weak puppy died later and she lay on one and smothered it.

I felt very sad for the poor owner and her little girl,but it brought home to me what a risky business breeding is.

PS. apparently the puppies were too big for her.

ruby2
7th May 2008, 11:00 PM
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR REPLIES!!!!! Thats it you have all made up my mind once and for all......I'm definetely keeping my appointment.


RUBY WILL BE SPAYED!!! My appointment date is Wednesday the 14th of this month at 8.a.m. Isnt that next wednesday??? I have communion as well so my mind is boggled!!!!:lpy:

The thought alone of a big massive dog after poor ruby, was enough in itself never mind the other issues which are bad enough..Oh my god the poor thing......:eek::eek::eek::eek:
Ok we will do that, and i will keep you posted of my stress!!!!!:( but she will be ok wont she.....:)

pippa
8th May 2008, 11:52 AM
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR REPLIES!!!!! Thats it you have all made up my mind once and for all......I'm definetely keeping my appointment.


RUBY WILL BE SPAYED!!! My appointment date is Wednesday the 14th of this month at 8.a.m. Isnt that next wednesday??? I have communion as well so my mind is boggled!!!!:lpy:

The thought alone of a big massive dog after poor ruby, was enough in itself never mind the other issues which are bad enough..Oh my god the poor thing......:eek::eek::eek::eek:
Ok we will do that, and i will keep you posted of my stress!!!!!:( but she will be ok wont she.....:)


She will be fine.You'll get lots of support here on the day:)

ruby2
8th May 2008, 06:04 PM
thank you all so much. Is there anything i should be asking them to do. Or should i ask for any particular pain killers or should i make sure they give me that collar thing when im leaving. ??:confused:

Moviedust
8th May 2008, 06:20 PM
thank you all so much. Is there anything i should be asking them to do. Or should i ask for any particular pain killers or should i make sure they give me that collar thing when im leaving. ??:confused:

Other folks on the board can speak to the preferred types of anesthesia, but when I had Holly spayed last summer, I found that a onesie (human baby type) worked wonders to keep her out of her stitches for the first few days. I just got a cheap onesie on sale, cut a tail hole and viola! I'm sure she was much more comfy in the onesie than an e-collar. Here's Holly in her onesie:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/moviedust/hollyonesy2.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/moviedust/hollyonesy1.jpg

Scouty girl
8th May 2008, 08:39 PM
I've been through three spays with three females that I've owned and believe me you will be much worse off that day than Ruby will be. You'll bring her home and the next day she'll be trying to bouce around the house like nothing has happened. I think you're doing the right thing.

I don't think you should ever get a male dog, you're husband will probably try and take him to another country just so he won't have to be neutered:jump:.

Karlin
8th May 2008, 10:54 PM
Well you can always sneak out a male, get him neutered with these (http://neuticles.com/), and bring him home and the man of the house will never notice the difference. :lol: Apparently the big big market for these is with men who feel they cannot appear in public with a dog missing his bits. :rolleyes:

That is really sad about the puppies -- but this is a point made over and over by breeders -- never have a litter so the kids 'can learn about the wonders of life'. As breeders know better than anyone, the 'wonders' can include some things children should really not see. When I was a child we were going to get a second dog, a Puli. I can still remember being told that we were no longer getting the puppy because the mother ate her litter. :yikes . I was probably only 7 or 8 and the very idea haunted me for a long, long time.

ruby2
8th May 2008, 11:10 PM
Well you can always sneak out a male, get him neutered with these (http://neuticles.com/), and bring him home and the man of the house will never notice the difference. :lol: Apparently the big big market for these is with men who feel they cannot appear in public with a dog missing his bits. :rolleyes:

That is really sad about the puppies -- but this is a point made over and over by breeders -- never have a litter so the kids 'can learn about the wonders of life'. As breeders know better than anyone, the 'wonders' can include some things children should really not see. When I was a child we were going to get a second dog, a Puli. I can still remember being told that we were no longer getting the puppy because the mother ate her litter. :yikes . I was probably only 7 or 8 and the very idea haunted me for a long, long time.
oh karlin you are awful......Imagine the scene..Here i was after being at a birthday party and eating a mars bar and some cake. Just had the mars bar in my mouth and clicked on the word above 'these' that you have highlighted. Well i nearly choked on the mars bar...I thought that was so funny...:lol: I was looking at it and saying testicular what???? and then the penny dropped!!! My god they would think of anything...:jump:

ruby2
8th May 2008, 11:15 PM
:razz:and cindy i think the onesie is a great idea. I wonder what size ? and do i just open it up when she has to do a wee??? I know i sound thick now dont i??:lpy:

Moviedust
8th May 2008, 11:27 PM
:razz:and cindy i think the onesie is a great idea. I wonder what size ? and do i just open it up when she has to do a wee??? I know i sound thick now dont i??:lpy:

The size will depend on the dog. I've never purchased a onsie before (I dont have kids), so I learned that they often have a length on the size. So measure your pup from shoulders to bum before you go shopping.

When Holly needed to pee, I unsnapped the onesie at the crotch and then I pulled the bottom up to the top and snapped it. It kept the onesie around her waist while she did her thing. When she came back in, I just put it back like normal.

Karlin
8th May 2008, 11:32 PM
Charity shops are a good place to pick up a couple. I just cut a hole for the tail then unsnap and roll it up like a little t-shirt for walks or toilet breaks. Usually they only need it for a couple of days. I hate the ecollars though some dogs are fine with them -- Leo is. Took him a bit to get sued to it but I had to use it when his anal gland ruptured as he was licking the skin off the base of his tail trying to lick the wound.

Caraline
9th May 2008, 05:11 AM
He says it is like a woman getting a hysterectomy.

I've had a hysterectomy, and my only regret is that I didn't have it about 20 years earlier. :D


He thinks it is like doing that to my daughter...That ruby is so young and she is only a little girl with no way of making her own decision....:(

This is anthropomorphizing (projecting human feelings onto non-human animals) and we all do it to some degree. Your little girl won't even know she has been spayed. She will have a bit of a sore tummy for a couple of days, but she isn't going to wake up and say "oh my goodness, I can't have babies".

I really feel for your situation as it is really difficult if your partner is opposed to something that you feel is right. I hope you both can come to a place of peace with this. Perhaps asking your husband to come along to the vet with you, where he can ask his questions & dispel some of his concerns?

ruby2
9th May 2008, 06:12 PM
ok i have the onesie bought. I got 5 of them in dunnes today for 6euro. I got age 2 to 3 in childrens. I think they will fit fine....my mother said it was a brilliant idea. She was trying to make a bandage type thing for her dog when she was spayed. So im all set for next wednesday...i will keep you all posted.....:(

Louise1823
9th May 2008, 10:33 PM
Hi Ruby2,
Just to let you know that Chloe was spayed today and she is just fine! We took her home at 6pm, and she's settled on the sofa curled up on a pillow as we speak.
The vet gave us some antibiotics and some pain killer medicine to give her so hopefully she will be comfortable enough over the next few days.
I will head to Dunnes tomorrow for an all in one - looks like a great idea!
Good luck with Ruby next week, Im sure she will be fine :xfngr:
Louise

ruby2
9th May 2008, 11:58 PM
thanks louise that is very nice of you. Hope she will be ok for you. Keep us posted. I have communion tomorrow so i wont get a chance to come on. We are heading away for two nights as well so i will update everyone next week.:)